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Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos & Kuva Liches Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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1 hour ago, (PSN)MrTrixer said:

What part of this is making it easier taking down liches? They rarely appear in missions, they dont always spread to different planets after ranking up and they only occupy a single planet at a time. And that final confrontation area? The one in the void that you can reach with a railjack, that place where it would be easy to find her once you got all the murmur ready? Im not going there, whatever you guys did to make my lich go from a minivan into a tank i dont like it.

Before it was like a reward that you finally managed to find the lich, take it down and then either convert it or kill it on the spot. Now? Now it feels like all my hard work is multiplied several times over and im almost forced to play with other players to take down a single lich, and even if i got it all down and everything is ready, it will just go into the void and wait for a final confrontation, again..

This is my biggest complaint post update

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Posted (edited)

I'm posting this here because the other threads do not speak of Command Intrinsics, and Sisters are more related to Railjack, since they make use of it...

So... Elite crew members for Railjack.

You added a new layer of RNG to a system that already had 6 layers of RNG... And it feels awful.

The six layers were:

  • Resources/credits required.
  • Amount of available crew per day.
  • Competency points spread.
  • Faction.
  • Health.
  • Shield.

The Unique Skill depending on the maximum competency is a nested variable in the points spread, which makes it even harder to get...

For people that like like crews and Railjack in general, it feels bothersome. The cost for the crew members are excessive. And you are bound to get a bad roll.

The Riven's completely random system is not fun. Crewmates were put in an even harsh state as of now.

So... My suggestions are:

  • Reduce the cost for elite crew mates.
  • Reduce the range of random values for resources.
  • Remove RNG on Health and Shield. Warframes, pets and anything else has fixed stats. No need for variation here, it doesn't add value to gameplay. If you want variation in these, make them fixed per faction (for example, Steel Meridian could have more Armor, New Loka more Health, and so on).
  • Make the amount of available crew per day.
  • Allow us to request Ticker to bring us crewmates with specific traits (competency points, faction, unique skill, anything), for an increased price (2x or 3x) to compensate.

Thank you for the great update!

Edited by Lakyus
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Posted (edited)

Any chance it can be changed that the Sister can't go in extraction? Had the same issue when Lich's became a thing almost 2 years ago.

Granted in groups this isn't an issue but solo the moment I touch extraction the mission ends.

After the first time I used the parazon the first time, Sister decided to throw herself into extraction and wouldn't come out.

Edited by Hello
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Posted (edited)

The corpus liches have some weird adaptation going on, this makes so many weapons straight up garbage against them. Proposal: remove it.

Another thing is probably coming from the hounds? They put cooldowns on abilities, that sucks to put it lightly. Proposal: remove it.

Corpus liches are immune to pillage it seems. Proposal: make it work.

Edited by 60framespersecond
"and what you would change to make it better!"
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Overall, I like the new flow. I especially like the changes made to accommodate matchmaking, with all liches/Sisters of a certain level occupying the same nodes. That was a great decision! I'm a bit iffy on the railjack segment. I don't think it's a bad change in theory, but there are a number of problems popping up.

  • It makes killing your lich quite inaccessible to solo players -- the railjack crew is helpful, but solo railjack is still a pretty big pain (the ability to order gunner crew members to fire forward artillery at crewships would help a lot with this).
  • The whole mission feels pretty janky right now.
    • At the phase where you fly to and enter the lich's galleon, the side objective map markers still show up, making it a bit confusing as to where you're supposed to go (primarily if you've just joined the squad after they've completed the other objectives).
    • I've had some problems where Cy won't teleport the rest of the squad into the galleon's holding area, and/or the "waiting for players: x/4" message doesn't show up, creating some additional confusion.
    • The entire game suffers from the client-side hosting/matchmaking system, but in my opinion it's especially painful in railjack missions, where there are a lot more moving parts. When you add in trying to fight 4 liches, the hosting problems magnify and become more frustrating. It sucks to glitch out when trying to defeat your lich because the host happens to have bad internet.

Then some feedback about the lich fights themselves:

  • The damage reduction right now feels INCREDIBLY painful. I understand not wanting the Arquebex to shred through the liches in half a second, but this went way too far in the wrong direction. Arquebex is supposed to be a massive damage dealer, and it doesn't feel right for a weapon with a total damage number in the hundreds of thousands to end up doing ~10 damage per shot to a target with a ton of HP. Regular weapons definitely shouldn't be dealing more damage than Arquebex (which they have, in my experience, even when Arquebex is modded for the lich's vulnerabilities). Arquebex is the obvious example here, but ultimately the problem is with the damage reduction, because regular weapons (as well as exalted, like Regulators) are doing very, very little damage as well. Everything feels completely ineffective. I want the lich fights to be more engaging, and as it stands right now, the previous system with having to Mercy them three times felt more engaging to me than chipping away at a huge bag of shields and effective HP. If it was something more like Sentient damage reduction, where you can clearly tell which damage types have lost efficacy and you are able to go into your operator to reset it, I think it'd feel a lot better. It just doesn't feel good when you kit out your best gear to match the lich's abilities and vulnerabilities, but you still end up just having to brute force it to do a small dent of damage.
  • The radiation procs from the Sisters really sucks! It seems like they all might have the ability to do it regardless of their progenitor element? I know my impact Sister rad procced my squad multiple times. I don't think it's necessarily bad for them to be able to do that (it certainly makes for a powerful threat), but it seems really odd that non-radiation Sisters can do it, and the abilities that trigger it should be better telegraphed.
    • Since the upper right status bar can already have so much information on it at once, it's very easy to miss when you've been rad procced, and people end up one-shotting their squad without even realizing they were the ones that did it. Out of all the status procs, radiation is the most deadly when playing in a group; therefore, it should be IMMEDIATELY and PROMINENTLY visible when a player has been procced (maybe a screen filter effect, or a flashing warning icon that shows up in a more prominent location?).
  • Just a small thing, but it would be nice if it was made apparent that you don't need the correct requiem mods on your parazon for the final stage. Alternatively, it might eliminate some confusion and make more sense lore-wise if the mod charges weren't consumed until you actually killed/converted the lich? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to only need the requiem mods when you scare the lich away to their ship.
  • It also felt a bit confusing going through the ships without objective markers before the liches had spawned in. Maybe some indication of where you had to go to find each lich in sequence would help? Each lich seemingly just popping in at a random spot in the ship contributed to a more anticlimactic feeling.

Ironically, throughout the Sister process I found that my teammates downing me from radiation was a much bigger threat than anything the Sisters or the hounds did themselves. This lends the impression that it might be easier to do the whole process solo; but with the occupied node changes, the railjack phase, and the damage reduction, you're clearly intended to do this in a squad. I think that players should be able to viably kill liches either solo or grouped up (and without needing to pass a Steel Path-level gear check), so I hope that some changes are made to accommodate both options! :-)

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2 minutes ago, transhawke said:

Overall, I like the new flow. I especially like the changes made to accommodate matchmaking, with all liches/Sisters of a certain level occupying the same nodes. That was a great decision!

Might be nice for matchmaking, but I'm on my third lich and it already feels very stale. Same ol' planets every time. Just thinking of grinding the weapons multiple times to max them out on the same 5 planets and RJ mission...

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i really wonder who the hell came up with the moronic idea of a single weapon RNG spawn in this game in the first place... and the whole dev team to be like "hey that's a great idea, we should totally implement that in this game, that's a great content!"

proving once again, you don't play your own game

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Posted (edited)

I am MR 30. I feel no compelling need to reach L1, as the only thing I cared about MR for was the initial mod cap.
The only thing with any impact that Leg ranks would give me is initial cap for 5-forma rank40 weapons.
...
I hate the slew of Rank40 weapons.
On the Paracesis, it was a cool, unique new gimmick for what's supposedly going to be a story-significant weapon.
With every Tom, $&*^ and Harriet getting a weapon with that gimmick both cheapens it, and makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective.
Thankfully, I don't need the MR from the extra ranks anymore, so there's that.

I'm unlikely to ever get any of the Tenet melees.
I've already gotten the once-rewards from Void Storms, and Corrupted Holokeys replacing Void Traces removes half the evergreen reason I had to do them.
(The amount of Endo for the time it takes isn't a worthwhile value proposition. Rad relics are still attractive, but only if you're looking for specific relics rather than 'any relic', in which case ESO is significantly more worthwhile.)
So Corrupted Holokeys would be the only thing I'd be doing Void Storms for On top of that, with each weapon costing 40 CH, and a 37.5% chance to get at most 6 per Void Storm mission? Absolutely not worth my time.

I am unlikely to engage with the Sisters in any significant capacity.
Liches, I can spawn as part of playing most anything Grineer, and working on Kuva weapon upgrades gives me what to do when I'm formaing things.
Having to cool my heels waiting for Treasurers (who have one of the worst survivability mechanics - 'your Kung Fu damage no good here', with astronomical %DR and immunity to what should be the Damage 2.0 solution to Corpus, Toxin damage) is very much not what I play Warframe for.
Note however: The change to flow might change this, depending on whether a Showdown is as much of an irritating back-and-forth as (solo) Railjack is.

Relatedly, while the murmur reduction is nice, it misses the point.
In my experience, at least, Murmur gain has always been significantly faster than Anger buildup, which is the real roadblock in the Lich progression.
Moreover, I've been unable to find anyone who knows, on these forums, the wiki, the reddit, or Youtube, how Anger actually works, so I could try to improve my process.

As to the Tenet guns - they look cool, and have neat functionality.
But they're neither powerful or ease-of-use-able to displace my current go-tos, nor are they cool enough to warrant a grind of that magnitude dedicated purely to Corrupted Holokey.

As for the Hounds:
Haven't seen stats, but I'll be honestly amazed if their weapons have more-than-negligible impact. The ONLY companion weapons that gave were:
* The Vulklok on launch, because it shipped with a Player primary's stats (the Lanka, specifically), and was immediately nerfed into oblivion.
* The Cryotra, as an autonomous CO-primer, which, between Smeeta, Panzer, Nukor etc has been outgrown.
* The Verglas, which shipped with a Player primary's stats (the Glaxion, specifically), is quite able to solo non-endless SP Grineer (esp when combined with the Nautilus' Cordon), and which, given the Vulklok, I'm honestly astounded hasn't been nerfed into the ground yet. Can't help but wonder if being locked behind Railjack is a reason for that - either getting players to play RJ, or spend Plat on it. But that's neither here nor there.
On top of that, they're competing with the only progression-booster in Charm and Immortal-Mini-Saryn-with-PAnimalInstinct-and-Vacuum. What do they bring to the table?
Null Audit seems like a cool concept, I cannot believe it'll be more than a cool gimmick in non-endless, and utterly useless in any mission with more than 1 Eximus at a time.
Most of the impactful Auras are innate:
* Ancient Healer's DR+proc-absorb and pulsed heal,
* Ancient Disruptor's... was it 80%? reduction of ability duration, ability damage, and mana-burn (all of which are less relevant/potent for a player), and
* Toxic Ancient's Toxin Resist and (more importantly) +%toxin damage (which, again, less impactful for a player).
Which means they can't be stolen (for at least the disable).
The only elemental Eximus aura that matters was the Electric one, back when it did Magnetic procs. (or when they stack with Guardian and a Shield Drone for damage-immune Corpus shields).
And Energy Leech has no impact when player-aligned.
And all that's assuming we're talking about just ONE such eximus every 60 seconds.

Not a single other ability looks like it matters.
On top of which, they're tied to Sisters. As I don't need the MR, they don't improve the value proposition.
Still probably not doing that.

 

And since none of the other megathreads seem the right home for this:
The Blood for X mods either need to be baked into the Parazon, a tech-tree-style background improvement (e.g. Mercy-ing enemies levels the Parazon, unlocking innate abilities), or added to the Junctions. (Or something, idk.)
The players who NEED those effects, read: new-to-mid players, can really only be expected to have Blood for Ammo, because it's a 8/10 or so drop from Phorid. And which they don't need, because they're most likely doing the majority of their serious killing with melee because guns are basically useless once you hit the teens until you've ranked up a whole much of high-capacity and-or 10-rank mods, as well as (learning about and) collected the needed elementals.
(Shotguns are much more appealing in that regard, with almost every single non-endgame mod being 5-rank.)
Blood for Life is a middling drop Vay Hek, who is hard for a new player.
Let's not start on mission-Ambulases and Blood for Life.
By the time they have them, they don't need them, as they at very least have access to small pizzas via a clan, or more likely to med pizzas and some large from their syndicates.

Edited by Chroia
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People would even jump into the Granum Void is simply because they want to activate/spawn a sister, like yourself.... that means once you get out with tier 1 and up, your squad members are now your competition to get a mercy kill once the sister is spawn.... That is a very unfortunate setup!

There are numerous run where simply because I tripped on one of the steps (or everyone else running volt) while rushing to the newly spawn sister, I luck out of getting a mercy kill.... imagine that frustration.. its not even RNG, its simply who can rush the fastest....

How about depending on squad size, you spawn the equivalent number of sister for each? Its long enough of a process to spawn a sister (pick a mission, jump into void, get to tier 1, get out, wait for sister to spawn, complete the mission, and get out...) but at least people dont have to keep running it hoping they get a mercy kill, or you are simply forcing people to play solo, in a squad setup game....

 

And on Yareli, while increase damage to a basic level on her 3 is a start, not allowing range to scale is just.... unfortunate....

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Just now, Chroia said:

I am MR 30.

Now, all that said, I also play other, less well farmed characters.
How does the value proposition look there?

I'm probably going to do Sisters while passively farming Protea/Stropha on characters that don't have them yet.
Any incidental Hounds I get along with that, yay.
Not planning on doing either beyond that.

As stated, the Lich improvement is not bad, but the new Showdown will dictate whether or not I do them.

Similarly, will passively get Corrupted Holokeys with any that don't have Sevagoth/Epitaph yet, and maybe more - depending on what-if-anything I end up doing for rest of their Intrinsics.
Still not going out of my way for them, though.

Think that's everything.

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Got all 3 mods right on my kuva lich, beat him down the 3 times required but wasn't given the option of vanquishing or converting him. Also didn't get my resources he stole back and he didn't take anything from the mission I defeated him on.

Back on the orbiter the lich menu shows i got them right but my lich is still active. Only thing is he's not taken over any planets so I can't go and kill him again or get another lich. Also it used up my require mods when I defeated him. Anyone else had this problem? Any idea of a fix? Thanks 

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Posted (edited)

I was very disappointed to learn that I could not help a friend take down his Lich in Saturn Proxima unless I have a Lich there myself. We  had assumed that we'd be able to help each other out, and I was locked out of the mission. Feels like something that really should be looked into.

Edited by KokoroWish
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Sisters really shouldn't be able to have the Teleport ability, it combines with their shields to make a really awful experience. 

I'm fighting a Sister in the final showdown, solo, have to spend a minute of constant shooting just to remove her shields, then she zoops off to god-knows-where and gets them all back.

Hounds don't benefit from teleporting either. They'll teleport to a completely different room, then just run straight back to you because they're melee fighters. I don't see any positive/fun impacts of the teleport ability if I'm being honest.

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13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi said:

Got all 3 mods right on my kuva lich, beat him down the 3 times required but wasn't given the option of vanquishing or converting him. Also didn't get my resources he stole back and he didn't take anything from the mission I defeated him on.

Back on the orbiter the lich menu shows i got them right but my lich is still active. Only thing is he's not taken over any planets so I can't go and kill him again or get another lich. Also it used up my require mods when I defeated him. Anyone else had this problem? Any idea of a fix? Thanks 

 

On 2021-07-06 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Liches have also received the new boss showdown flow in Railjack! Your Kuva Lich will now flee to their Galleon once you’ve weakened them with the correct Requiem sequence. Once you’ve unlocked their Requiem, a new showdown node will appear within the Saturn Proxima (minimum Intrinsic 5). You and any other Tenno who have weakened Liches will be able to seek out and destroy! 

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The reward chance for Corrupted Holokeys is too damn low!

Since last hotfix dropped a couple of hours ago, I've been grinding RJ fissures (Pluto/Veil Exterminate). Zero Holokeys have I gotten, that's beyond frustrating. It wouldn't surprise me if these little guys are bugged!

Please, just make them a guaranteed reward and increase the weapon price to compensate. If it's going to be like this, I'd rather pretend these weapons don't exist at all.

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Posted (edited)

Remove diminishing returns on abilities from corpus liches.

Like honestly, who thought of all this stuff? You're removing squishy CC-reliant frames from the potential pool of usable lich hunters by having crazy diminishing returns on their CC abilites. Then there are frames that rely on active casting of self-buffs, think Pillage on Hildryn, Baruuk's 3 and 4, Xaku's 4, Revenant's 2, Nezha's 3. And you dump these hounds on us that just prevent these abilities as well as put a hefty cooldown on them.

Edited by 60framespersecond
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I may not be the only person who has noticed this, but the Kuva Liches and the Parvos Sisters seem rather difficult to take down now. It doesn't help that for some reason all enemies within Railjack Missions do way more damage than normal enemies and have a lot more health and defense compared to starchart enemies. 

I do enjoy that the process has been a bit more streamlined, though the entire Zenith Crown for Parvos Sisters is a bit tedious when compared to the Kuva Liches, the only gripe I have is that they are more than just difficult to take down in the last mission, in normal missions they can be difficult, but damage still is there, however in Railjack they seem to have a lot more armor and health, beating out almost every normal boss in the game.

Just my observation and opinion however.

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32 minutes ago, (XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi said:

Got all 3 mods right on my kuva lich, beat him down the 3 times required but wasn't given the option of vanquishing or converting him. Also didn't get my resources he stole back and he didn't take anything from the mission I defeated him on.

Back on the orbiter the lich menu shows i got them right but my lich is still active. Only thing is he's not taken over any planets so I can't go and kill him again or get another lich. Also it used up my require mods when I defeated him. Anyone else had this problem? Any idea of a fix? Thanks 

you have to go to the rail jack mision page and there is a special node and you have to go kill him again

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Being dropped into a the sister railjack assassination mission with the host using a ~600 health railjack (yes six hundred not six thousand), meant as soon as people saw this, they quit the mission, not surprisingly this resulted in a high turn over of PUG players, it didn't take long for the mission to fail, simply due to the railjack not being able to hold its own...

Needless frustration! There needs to be some sort of railjack strength check for this particular mission; an under geared railjack is a no no! Given that there is a sizable population which hate railjack, this isn't going to change their opinion of the game mode.

There needs to be a host migration if a member with a stronger railjack joins the mission. What determines a stronger railjack, maybe there needs to be a tier gear check?! 2 as a bear minimum?

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While I feel Liches are much the same grind and I feel Yareli was a "miss," I am actually really enjoying Sisters (the hunt, tbd the weapons). Here are some thoughts:

- Still too many thralls to kill, which makes it feel like it's still a grind. (I have all the old weapons and have done multiple fusions). I'm not looking forward to getting the three new guns. Probably the last thing I'll do from the update tbh.

- Sisters dialogue is a bit repetitive but that can be improved with time and updates. Happy they aren't "whiney."

- Spectres are a nice touch. Love the aggressive dogs (tbd opinion on powerfulness)

- There's a weird thing in the assassination mission, after killing the Sister, she orders torpedoes on the railjack. That could be fixed or just removed/blocked.

- I like the new universal requiem mod being 25% (not always available)

- what are we supposed to do with all these corpus dogs in our foundry after we have leveled the three and dont want them? Buy 2 slots to sell them doesn't seem intended.

- Sisters and helminth invigor' feel like the best part of the update. Thank you for railjack and fusion bug fixes as well.

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If you're having trouble getting a Sister to spawn because it's a bit long, try doing the Capture on Phobos. I do the golden hand BEFORE I complete the mission and BEFORE the treasurer shows up, and more often than not, the Candidate will show up not long afterwards while I'm heading to extraction.

That being said, however... I freaking HATE the RNG that I've been getting while trying to spawn my second Sister. I'm wanting to get an Arca next (got a Detron first, and I've been having a blast with that), but while farming the Arca, I've seen two dubs of the Tetra, three of the new weapons, and THREE DETRONS... Not to mention during one sister encounter, Stalker showed up, and she disappeared... Don't know if she was killed by him or just left.

 

On the positives of the Liches/Sisters, I do love the reduced time to farm for Murmurs, and having it where everyone gets to kill their Sister/Lich at once after you go in the RJ mission is a plus, because it does share the rewards (not the weapons or what hound you get, but parts to other hounds) with the rest of the team who helped you kill your Sister. Many a time when I'd be trying to kill my Lich in the past, randoms would show up, their Lich would spawn, they'd kill it, and then, they'd leave without giving mine a chance to spawn. Now, everyone gets the chance to kill their Lich/Sister.

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Kuva Grattler is absolutely worthless.  Using identical builds with a 58.5% heat kuva version I'm getting a 28% DPS loss compared to the normal version.  Even taking into account the lack of spool up time the supposedly better version takes longer to kill tough enemies than the normal one does.

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