I strongly disagree with your approach to nerfs.

[Venus-Venera]

19 minutes ago, Thanzilla said:

-snip-

the answer would be: NO ONE! Yes! nobody wanted to make SP easier. i don't know any particular player. because SP was actually quite nice. even if there is no reward for the time invested ...

also something like SP is needed. because here you can test your gear and it would at least be beneficial to get maximun out.

but because devs attach great importance to causals, we have what we have .............

[vanaukas]

imagine relying in just 3 mods to being able to kill something. Absolute shame.

[MqToasty]

Have you actually tried playing Steel Path after the update?  I played a few missions today, and it really is a small nerf.  I mean, the numbers look smaller, but enemies do not take much longer to die.  Unless your equipment/modding was total junk and just barely cutting it in Steel Path, all that's been nerfed is extra overkill damage.

[(PSN)Miles-0-Miles]

Very much agree with the sentiment of DE's tone deaf approach to nerfs. Been a staunch supporter of them for 2 years now, a relatively pitiful amount compared to quite a few around here I'm sure. However I've now actually gotten to the point where I am not enjoying this game at all for the first time in my time playing it. Like where is the fun switch and can someone please turn it back on. For years, the release broken and fix later approach has mostly worked but when you're A. Not fixing everything properly the first time and B. Resorting to the laziest possible way of balancing your game, i.e; giving us less ways to enjoy ourselves instead of just straight up giving us more ways. This is a Co-Op game, surely improving the AI and encounter design would've been a better alternative than making our hard work redundant and essentially resetting everyone as soon as something gets too OP. Your game is a power fantasy! Give us more not less! I've been super tolerant of every major nerf during my time but this takes the cake, not to mention the release of one your most disappointing Warframes and most disappointing quests to accompany it.

In closing, I am....Quite simply, an extremely dissatisfied customer. DE please do better. Your playerbase deserves better.

[TeaHands]

40 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

There is no need, mostly everyone remembers DE said they'd buff bad Helminth abilities. What some random guy, who thinks he is being smart by quoting fallacies, thinks a long time after the fact, is utterly irrelevant I'm afraid.

 

27 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The source 'common knowledge' doesn't fly with me. As evidenced by  the fact that I went through the process of collecting all the information, I have a strong distaste for misinformation, which I have a suspicion you're trying to spread, intentionally or otherwise. Which only harms the likelihood of DE listening, because if the people that they're supposed to be listening to aren't even giving feedback based on reality, then why should they?

I'm very bored at work so I decided to give a look at what they said about buffing/nerfing abilities around helminth on different devstreams and this was the only one I found that specifically mentions helminth abilities after Brozime's dreaded well-put-together chart.

This is what I found on Warframe Home Devstream #6, the conversation starts at about 50 minutes in.

Reb: "Because Helminth is it's own thing, would the information gleamed from its usage lead to, buffing the abilities that always get replaced? Or for now, are we just 'helminth is its own entity and its information is relative to the dynamics of the system."

Scott: "Currently it's the wild west."

Steve: "Yeah"

Reb: "It's new, and we'll do as we do."

Scott: "Yep, good luck Pablo"

I legit don't remember them mention buffing helminth abilities in a stream, just mentions of bringing up replaced abilities, which DE didn't say they would do. It seemed like everyone but DE was talking about bringing up the less popular/useful? helminth abilities. It might have been mentioned by them in the forums, but searching anything on this site is like trying to tie my teeth together.

[Loza03]

24 minutes ago, Thanzilla said:

Who asked for this?

I was already under the impression that Warframe was already an easy game. Now what is it? Use your mk 1 whatever to kill the highest level enemies cause why not? Just a dress up your warframe doll game?

Are the sisters challenging at least? Is there any hurdle left to overcome for us in this game? Any challenge?

I don't even.

Plasmor Sisters seem to be able to bypass Shield Gating and do some Hella damage. At least the one I had with a +53% did. Seriously, she was out there two-shotting my Necramech. I don't think I could two-shot my Necramech.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Reb: "Because Helminth is it's own thing, would the information gleamed from its usage lead to, buffing the abilities that always get replaced? Or for now, are we just 'helminth is its own entity and its information is relative to the dynamics of the system."

I remember it, this devstream was later. The buffing bad Helminth abilities thing was before that.

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-07-06 at 9:36 AM, Traumtulpe said:

It is my impression that you really have no regard at all, not even in the slightest, for the time your players spend on the items you decide to nerf on a whim

They do not. They most certainly do not regard that time at all. If anything, if more players are sinking more time into option X than option Y, that makes the item MORE likely to be nerfed. Rest in peace your Vermisplicer, I guess

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, sorry, but you can't just show up and ask me to proof what I had for lunch 5 years ago.

 

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

There is no need, mostly everyone remembers DE said they'd buff bad Helminth abilities. What some random guy, who thinks he is being smart by quoting fallacies, thinks a long time after the fact, is utterly irrelevant I'm afraid.

 

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I remember it, this devstream was later. The buffing bad Helminth abilities thing was before that.

The mystery of the lost devstream quotes continues, all because someone refuses to cite their sources to avoid looking bad in an argument. I was around and active when Helminth was revealed. I remember nothing about buffing Helminth abilities, but if you wanna show me the source, I'd gladly change my mind.

I'm guessing this is similar to that time everyone thought Nelson Mandela died in prison.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's funny, I think creative input and not listening to it's player base is why the Warframe is successful. 

Yeah i think it's good to listen to feedback but that doesn't mean listen to every player tho. Since alot people don't have an all too great grasp on game balance as a whole. 

Since alot playesr don't have an idea of what they want could affect the whole game and even others.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

[...]

Sorry, but I do not care about your faulty memory, nor do Helminth abilities have any further relevance to this thread. I'd appreciate if you you ceased any further attempt of derailing it.

On that matter, I don't quite understand how it makes sense to merge a thread complaining about Steel Path being too easy with the new mods into this one either, but it's not an issue, I guess.

[TeaHands]

10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I remember it, this devstream was later. The buffing bad Helminth abilities thing was before that.

Huh, Home Dev Stream #5 was the first Dev Stream after Tennocon 2020 and looking at the timestamps there's no mention of helminth abilities in it.

IDK, I should get back to work lol

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

 

 

The mystery of the lost devstream quotes continues, all because someone refuses to cite their sources to avoid looking bad in an argument. I was around and active when Helminth was revealed. I remember nothing about buffing Helminth abilities, but if you wanna show me the source, I'd gladly change my mind.

I'm guessing this is similar to that time everyone thought Nelson Mandela died in prison.

They did mention that they were going to buff some of the bad abilities, which they also did in preperation for Helminth, so the abilities got better overall. They also said they were going to look over abilities later down the line but never gave a time window for it. I assume they'll wait until they touch the frames that own those abilities at the same time.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think creative input and not listening to it's player base is why the Warframe is successful. 

I wouldn’t call Warframe successful exactly. I’d call it a free to play mobile game with a nitch and vary loyal player base of about 30k who will defend it vigorously despite it being fundamentally broken. It’s also the only game they play because it’s the best game ever made, no other games compare. Warframe player retention is abysmal. The only reason I play it every now and then is because it’s a nice filler between AAA games. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Sorry, but I do not care about your faulty memory, nor do Helminth abilities have any further relevance to this thread. I'd appreciate if you you ceased any further attempt of derailing it.

Fine. I just wanted to tie up your derailment into a neat little summary. If you care about my opinions, I think that in response to nerfs, people are being overdramatic, and even entitled in some cases. These weapons aren't dead, nor is the game going to be dead for having things be nerfed. Your time isn't wasted, because the stuff you invested in is still good. The beneficial part about nerfs is that everyone can go and use the weapons they were ignoring because they were worse versions of X. Except that's not the case, because people would rather go and be upset and make a fuss, rather than just adapting to the new environment, or even just using the nerfed weapons, since they're still good weapons.

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They did mention that they were going to buff some of the bad abilities, which they also did in preperation for Helminth, so the abilities got better overall. They also said they were going to look over abilities later down the line but never gave a time window for it. I assume they'll wait until they touch the frames that own those abilities at the same time.

Honestly I care less about the actual statement and more so the refusal to cite it when asked, despite using it to condemn the developers. I don't remember it, but I'd love to see the clip, and if that were the case I'd probably be of the opinion that they could do better in that regard. More buffs is usually a good thing.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2021-07-07 at 1:12 PM, Yamazuki said:

It's simply because there isn't one. Just look at any "reason" they've given for any "balance" changes done in the last couple years. It's always, this one person whined, so nerfed. Or, people dared to use this weapon, so nerf.

Balance isn't the goal of their changes, it's just appeasement or dictating what people should be using [usage stats].

The reliance on opinions from a small section, or statistics, is also why some insanely broken interactions remain in the game. If something is never brought to their attention by those they listen to, or have high usage, it never gets nerfed. 

Do not conflate YOUR lack of understanding with "there being no reason".  

It's a spit in the face of 220+ employees at DE to assume that they've run a very successful game for 8+ years purely on "unreasonable, nonsensical ideas and changes".  

They're not amateurs. They're professionals.  They're not perfect, either... but there are alot of keyboard warriors here who've never coded a day in their life, much less tried to maintain balance in an ever-growing game like Warframe..
 

On 2021-07-07 at 1:47 PM, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

As for investment we Verminsplicer fans made... Time enjoyed is not time wasted:-)

THIS!! ^^^

Peeps would be happier if they understood this is not a race to the finish line, it's about enjoying the journey along the way.  But in a blind rush to get to the red light, they forget to "have fun" en route... which is a real shame.  

People shouldn't be blaming their impatience on DE, though.

On 2021-07-07 at 2:14 PM, Traumtulpe said:

That is obviously just an excuse. DE likes to do that, give excuses when it suits them to act against our interest. Turns out it's actually all our fault.

Not even close. I literally oneshot entire rooms one hour into Steel Path Kuva Survival with a weapon that still has 3/5 Riven disposition (and I don't have a Riven).

Meanwhile the Vermisplicer, with a Riven, slowly sucks the live out of previously 6, now 4 enemies. It can't get headshots, it has trouble damaging Nullifier bubbles, it has like half the stats of the Kuva Nukor, it can't effectively be built for heat (which is what makes all the OP beam weapons OP, except the few that have good slash damage).

Sorry, but I have no need of a weapon that is killing slowly, is very bugged, and halfway between AoE and single target. Nor does anybody else, which is why it was barely used when it was AoE, and will no longer be used now that it isnt.

Sounds to me like you just don't understand builds :/ 

Or how stacking elements works...  OR that you have more than one weapon in your loadout, and can carry more than just 1 elemental combo between them... 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

who've never coded a day in their life, much less tried to maintain balance in an ever-growing game like Warframe..

We are the customers/players it’s not our job to do that. But its absolutely their job to entertain us/their players. They pick and choose their “outrage/nerfs/balance/unintended/intended” or whatever they want to call it after years have gone by, YEARS. It’s exactly why their player retention in this game is completely abysmal. 

[Fl_3]

I watched yesterdays pre stream from Steve, and one thing he said leapt out at me.

"Every so often we like to change up the meta" This may not be an exact quote.

"We" not "The players" 

Such a small amount of people asked for the changes that we've received not enough for a development team to start changing things. Just look at these forums go and count all the "Melee is too strong" threads, and let me know when you've found all 5* of them.

This change hasn't happened because of a joke video about pressing "E" to win, this has happened because this is the direction the Developers want to take this game in.

And yes, it sucks.

(* it may be more than 5, it may be less but there are going to be way more threads complaining about this update than praising it)

[SneakyErvin]

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Honestly I care less about the actual statement and more so the refusal to cite it when asked, despite using it to condemn the developers. I don't remember it, but I'd love to see the clip, and if that were the case I'd probably be of the opinion that they could do better in that regard. More buffs is usually a good thing.

Iirc it was Pablo that mentioned it in a tweet in connection to how certain abilities needed to work differently with Helminth. Other than that I cant recall a place where they've discussed buffing.

As for the main topic here. After playing SP for most of the day (6-7 hours or so), all I can say is I've noticed very little impact of the nerfs to melee and knukor, I have however seen significant impact from the buffs to ranged weapons through the mods alone. Knukor actually feels better now than before since it is possible to increase the insane beam range of it further than before. It also deals more damage now per target, so clearing is roughly the same speed for crowds (extra multishot, extra damage etc.), you just need to do a bit more sweeping. And since I'm a melee player mostly, keeping the bonus damage maxed from the prim and sec dex arcanes is very simple.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

5 hours ago, DARKPrimer666 said:

DE,you guys already make this game a 3rd person shooting game.This game had unique features that you can play like anything in this single game in total gaming universe but you nerfed too too much that you just destroyed melee.But you said about small nerfing about attack speed and nothing major.But is it looks small nerfing to you!!!???

Yes, it is, indeed, a "small nerfing".   Cite: A melee fan/main who still slays Steel Path with off-meta melee weapons.

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

There is no need, mostly everyone remembers DE said they'd buff bad Helminth abilities. What some random guy, who thinks he is being smart by quoting fallacies, thinks a long time after the fact, is utterly irrelevant I'm afraid.

Who is this "mostly everyone"?  Where are you gathering this "data" you're insisting on?  I'm part of "everyone", and I didn't ask for it.  Several others here never asked for it.  You're pulling these numbers out of your Orphix.  Prove otherwise.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Sorry, but I do not care about your faulty memory, nor do Helminth abilities have any further relevance to this thread. I'd appreciate if you you ceased any further attempt of derailing it.

On that matter, I don't quite understand how it makes sense to merge a thread complaining about Steel Path being too easy with the new mods into this one either, but it's not an issue, I guess.

Translation:  "I insist you stop asking me to prove that my bs is based on real info, because it isn't, and admitting such will derail my whole argument".

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

We are the customers/players it’s not our job to do that. But its absolutely their job to entertain us/their players. They pick and choose their “outrage/nerfs/balance/unintended/intended” or whatever they want to call it after years have gone by, YEARS. It’s exactly why their player retention in this game is completely abysmal. 

1. Please cite what metrics you're basing your assertion of "their player retention is completely abysmal" on?  Warframe is doing as well as it's ever done, if not better.  

Just on Steam metrics alone, Warframe is still doing just fine! https://techacake.com/warframe-player-count/  And that's not counting console players at all... of which there are MANY.

2. Again, based on the numbers, Warframe DOES entertain a great many of us... certainly enough to continue operating 220+ employees after 8+ years, and showing no signs of closing shop.  Hell, Tencent even thought enough of them to BUY them, more or less.

3. Just because YOU do not any longer enjoy a piece of art (because games are, indeed, an art form), does not mean that art is objectively "bad".  I don't care much for the Mona Lisa... but to imply that it's "terrible" because it's not "doing its job of making me enjoy it" is just utter nonsense.

4. It is a free game that asked nothing of you in order to allow you to play it.  If you're no longer enjoying it, then move on.  There are plenty of games out there. It may not be your cup of tea.   To insist that Van Gogh should only paint stick figures fighting with pool noodles, because it is what YOU demand as "fun", is ridiculous.  The artist chooses what the artist paints.  If you, the viewer, do not wish to partake....don't.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Iirc it was Pablo that mentioned it in a tweet in connection to how certain abilities needed to work differently with Helminth. Other than that I cant recall a place where they've discussed buffing.

As for the main topic here. After playing SP for most of the day (6-7 hours or so), all I can say is I've noticed very little impact of the nerfs to melee and knukor, I have however seen significant impact from the buffs to ranged weapons through the mods alone. Knukor actually feels better now than before since it is possible to increase the insane beam range of it further than before. It also deals more damage now per target, so clearing is roughly the same speed for crowds (extra multishot, extra damage etc.), you just need to do a bit more sweeping. And since I'm a melee player mostly, keeping the bonus damage maxed from the prim and sec dex arcanes is very simple.

Shh, you're making too much sense and talking facts and objective experience...  We don't do that here...   

/s


 

[vanaukas]

wait why the hell a mod thought that merging 2 completely different threads was a nice idea? They merged the "nerfs unfair DE bad" thread with "new mods completely trivializes steel path". This thing on merging stuff is really annoying.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Just on Steam metrics alone,

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410
 

um no, player retention is terrible. Overall the majority of new players tend to quit rather than stay. Over 50 million+  registered and I’m willing to bet maybe 50k at most probably stick around. Also the achievements % is pathetic. 
 

the rest of your rebuttal is just not worth the effort. It’s obviously that you will blindly defend DEs game regardless their decisions or implementation strategies, it’s clear you take this game way to seriously and have this strange need to defend DEs honor by justifying thier poor decisions, being as defensive as possible.

all that said I enjoy this game in between other titles just as much as the next player but what is, is what is. 

[AlexMercer]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Dude what game are you playing? Because Warframe is objectively broken.

Then please tell me in what way? if it is that weapons/melee or frames are op/powerful then i disagree cause i like the power fantasy if the games does not crash or if the game has many bugs making it unplayable then i don’t consider it broken i enjoy my time playing warframe and that is my opinion not all people play games for the same reasons.

Like alot of other people i don’t enjoy nerfs especially when de let that said mechanic or weapons, frame or melee be like that for several months or years if they are gonna nerf something i would prefer them doing it within the same month or atleast 2 months not letting it stay like that for a long time.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I find the kuva nukor nerf to be the most egregious because it's a weapon they purposely required that you spend forma on it for mastery anyway. If that's the case, they should have made sure it was a weapon that was tested and wouldn't require any changes. If it was just your average weapon that there was no need to level up multiple times then whatever, but they deserve a lot of pushback on this or at least to be made to look at the practices of weapons that need to be leveled multiple times only for any investment to be lost or crippled once they get their hands on it. It's the same exact issue I have with rivens as stats can be changed to no fault of your own.