I strongly disagree with your approach to nerfs.

[Traumtulpe]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Welcome to online gaming!

What a silly thing to say. Pretending as if it is normal for equippment to be nerfed by up to 90% on a regular basis, in a PVE game no less, isn't a good look.

In fact, I've never even played a PVE game where anything gets nerfed purely by popularity. Usually when players really enjoy some new items the developers are happy, and just add even better items later. It's called power creep, you might have heard of it. And no, that isn't bad for the game, you just power creep enemies as well. New expansion -> higher levels. It's normal.

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

What a silly thing to say. Pretending as if it is normal for equippment to be nerfed by up to 90% on a regular basis, in a PVE game no less, isn't a good look.

In fact, I've never even played a PVE game where anything gets nerfed purely by popularity. Usually when players really enjoy some new items the developers are happy, and just add even better items later. It's called power creep, you might have heard of it. And no, that isn't bad for the game, you just power creep enemies as well. New expansion -> higher levels. It's normal.

Then you've never played any single game with seasons for instance, where popularity is always a factor to nerfs just to shake up the meta for the next season.

And how often does DE nerf things "by up to 90%" to remotely call it on a "regular basis"? We've had one massive nerf which we both agree was needed i.e Catchmoon. Outside of that, when?

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2021-07-06 at 6:37 PM, Kaotyke said:

Warframe has been going downhill since 2012.

So, move on from Warframe and come to D2, it's clearly a superior game to Warframe, They don't overcharge you with PA, they don't release bugged filled updates and move onto the next shiny thing, they don't massively nerf weapons (unless it's Teslos) and when they do nerf a weapon, they have a actual reason.

Sure, they have their season pass thing, but it's a one time payment and the only thing they have in the store is well priced cosmetics and not "Pay to Win" items, like WF has. (or pay to skip) and new players fall into this trap, as thats the only way to milk you for money, Vets don't give money, so why will they care?

I mean, just look at this badass Titan, who wants to play as a literal child, when you can play as an Adult Guardian, right and not have to worry about a fan servicing warframes that hold no value, besides "cute and OwO" 

[Traumtulpe]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then you've never played any single game with seasons for instance, where popularity is always a factor to nerfs just to shake up the meta for the next season.

Apparently I haven't. Do you know Path of Exile? Items in that game don't get nerfed retroactively. If you farmed for something you get to keep it.

[Currilicious]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe try to understand how the stats work instead of focusing blindly on CC? The DPS is several times higher since the changes, even post the status changes it is better than it was prior to the beam changes. The added multishot interaction alone puts it ahead of the old beam system even with the CC nerf.

Welcome to online gaming!

 

No mate stats isn't everything. Even you neglected to paint the whole picture with the stats. One hint I gave ya is the chaining, the next hint is the base damage. It isn't better because the two nerfs combined basically make whatever buffs pointless. You can stack a ton of conditions but with a low base damage (22 lol), yer not killing anything, beyond the mid level stuff at least. And with no foldback it means 22 is all yer get.

So take what you will. I can tell you haven't used it the way I did. I actually had 7 formas in the damn thing. Hence, you do you mate.

Now before some white knight gallops out with his horse to remind me it's an MR10 weapon and should not be too powerful. Well I've been looking for an alternative rifle that plays like a Ghostbuster beam rifle but there isn't one. So there ya go.

 

  

50 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Apparently I haven't. Do you know Path of Exile? Items in that game don't get nerfed retroactively. If you farmed for something you get to keep it.

It's rather apparent there are quite a number of lads here that haven't been gaming as long as some of us did. When they like a game, they think it's the best thing since universal suffrage. It's a sign.

[Smilomaniac]

1. Devs don't play the game - They can't relate to having spent thousands of hours on this game or how it feels to go through yet another grind just to get stuff that isn't worth it or more mechanics that'll get abandoned by them, not to be touched for years (archwing, k-drives and so on) or ever fixed to be what they promised (railjack)

2. People overrate balance to the extreme - You spend time getting the good stuff, you deserve to be better than those who don't

3. People don't even know what balance is/can be - equal output is not balance

4. Endgame doesn't need to be balanced, it'd be more useful that devs gave us builds for which the content would pose a reasonable challenge and if people would like to use their hard earned gear to breeze through it, then so be it

5. Rivens need to either be entirely removed OR be acknowledged as the final natural step to upgrade a weapon and not to balance out stats

6. People who claim something is "overpowered", "unbalanced", "too powerful" or any variation thereof need to be socially shamed into the ground

7. DE should focus on encouraging players to join clans and make friends, not rely on public play for an "optimal experience"

 

The sheer disregard they have for the time spent on weapons, or what have you, is insane. It's so callous that it makes them contenders for worst company of the year.
Scott's idiotic excuses like "if everyone goes to use one thing, then you don't really have a choice" is such a childish and poor mentality that doesn't take in the context that when you subject your players to unending amounts of grind, of which flying across the vast open spaces of the Orb Vallis is part of, then people will naturally seek to shorten the time spent on not-fun activities as much as possible.

It's like holding on to the downright moronic mechanic of picking things up off the floor, like reactant or ayatan stars. Just give us a god damn universal vacuum already!

They're out of touch and they're treating the game like their personal playground for their pet programming projects. This is what happens when devs run the show and don't have a manager to bonk them when they go out of control.

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Apparently I haven't. Do you know Path of Exile? Items in that game don't get nerfed retroactively. If you farmed for something you get to keep it.

A crap ton of things in PoE get nerfed retroactively. You getting to keep it doesnt matter. If skill X gets Y thing nerfed, that applies to every single skill gem for that skill in the game. Just as every piece of armor gets nerfed retroactively if a stat ceiling is changed. You get to keep your percentage roll, but it is based on the new ceiling, so if item has a stat go from 100 to 90 and you have a 90% roll, your old item had 90 while your new will have 81. And are you claiming DE removed one of your items?

5 hours ago, Currilicious said:

No mate stats isn't everything. Even you neglected to paint the whole picture with the stats. One hint I gave ya is the chaining, the next hint is the base damage. It isn't better because the two nerfs combined basically make whatever buffs pointless. You can stack a ton of conditions but with a low base damage (22 lol), yer not killing anything, beyond the mid level stuff at least. And with no foldback it means 22 is all yer get.

So take what you will. I can tell you haven't used it the way I did. I actually had 7 formas in the damn thing. Hence, you do you mate.

Now before some white knight gallops out with his horse to remind me it's an MR10 weapon and should not be too powerful. Well I've been looking for an alternative rifle that plays like a Ghostbuster beam rifle but there isn't one. So there ya go.

 

  

It's rather apparent there are quite a number of lads here that haven't been gaming as long as some of us did. When they like a game, they think it's the best thing since universal suffrage. It's a sign.

And 7.5 damage and no status stacking or multishot is worse. We are discussing if the weapon was nerfed, which it wasnt, since it was better post- beam weapon changes than before. The chaining matters very little, since 10m is enough in pretty much any area you are in, just look at how much explosive weapons wipe out with 7 or 8 meter radius and massive fall off, or how Gaze was the best beam weapon when kitguns came around, with only 5 meter chains and lower damage. And it is odd you claim mid level when both amprex and gaze wiped enemies very well in both arbitrations and rank 5 lich missions before Kuva Nukor came around and took their spot.

Maybe you should just mod better?

And are you really trying to play the ageism card? Then tell us gramps, how long have you been playing?

 

 

[Currilicious]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And 7.5 damage and no status stacking or multishot is worse. We are discussing if the weapon was nerfed, which it wasnt, since it was better post- beam weapon changes than before. The chaining matters very little, since 10m is enough in pretty much any area you are in, just look at how much explosive weapons wipe out with 7 or 8 meter radius and massive fall off, or how Gaze was the best beam weapon when kitguns came around, with only 5 meter chains and lower damage. And it is odd you claim mid level when both amprex and gaze wiped enemies very well in both arbitrations and rank 5 lich missions before Kuva Nukor came around and took their spot.

Maybe you should just mod better?

And are you really trying to play the ageism card? Then tell us gramps, how long have you been playing?

 

 

Eh mate if the thing isn't as good as before then it's a nerf no? What's on paper is just that, on paper. It is fine too if you just looked at the numbers and concluded it wasn't. Hence, you be you, mate. No need to get your panties all twisted in a bunch because some random on the internet don't agree with ya.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Should have buffed teh Vermi if they were going to give it an unwarranted nerf just for consistency.

[Traumtulpe]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just as every piece of armor gets nerfed retroactively if a stat ceiling is changed.

https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unique_items_with_legacy_variants

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Eh mate if the thing isn't as good as before then it's a nerf no? What's on paper is just that, on paper. It is fine too if you just looked at the numbers and concluded it wasn't. Hence, you be you, mate. No need to get your panties all twisted in a bunch because some random on the internet don't agree with ya.

But it isnt on paper, like I said, I used it plenty myself without problems in higher content after the "nerf". So it worked well in action and was also improved through simple napkin math. I also dont think I'm the one with "panties all twisted" since I'm not the one starting to use those phrases.

4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unique_items_with_legacy_variants

That is when they completely rework them, which tends to mean you get to keep the weaker version. I cant recall if there is even a single legacy item that has been better than the new version.

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is when they completely rework them, which tends to mean you get to keep the weaker version.

You can update to the new version, your choice. Also https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Kaom's_Heart

[Currilicious]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it isnt on paper, like I said, I used it plenty myself without problems in higher content after the "nerf". So it worked well in action and was also improved through simple napkin math. I also dont think I'm the one with "panties all twisted" since I'm not the one starting to use those phrases.

 

Whatever you say mate. You posting all those numbers without really knowing what mechanic actually made an otherwise mediocre weapon statwise fun, is really showing something. I think enough hints have been given. So you do you lol.

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You can update to the new version, your choice. Also https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Kaom's_Heart

You know you just linked an item that cannot be upgraded properly right due to missing stats between the versions? And what are you even trying to prove? You claimed PoE never nerfs old items, yet you only manage to provide things that show they allow you to keep the worst item i.e the legacy. All balance changes that arent direct reworks that result in stat buffs (additional affixes or higher ceilings) are universal without legacy items.

21 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Whatever you say mate. You posting all those numbers without really knowing what mechanic actually made an otherwise mediocre weapon statwise fun, is really showing something. I think enough hints have been given. So you do you lol.

Fun =/= effective. Just because you found the old version more fun doesnt mean it was better or that it was nerfed. Your fun may have been nerfed, but the performance and efficiency of the weapon was buffed.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

You know you just linked an item that cannot be upgraded properly right due to missing stats between the versions? And what are you even trying to prove? You claimed PoE never nerfs old items, yet you only manage to provide things that show they allow you to keep the worst item i.e the legacy.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, the legacy Kaoms was an incredibly valuable item. Also, what I am trying to prove should be obvious: It is possible to respect a players time in a PVE game, DE chooses not to.

[Currilicious]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Fun =/= effective. Just because you found the old version more fun doesnt mean it was better or that it was nerfed. Your fun may have been nerfed, but the performance and efficiency of the weapon was buffed.

Ah but it wasn't mate. But then again, if you didn't know what made the weapon fun pre-nerf, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Thus, you do you.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't think you know what you are talking about, the legacy Kaoms was an incredibly valuable item. Also, what I am trying to prove should be obvious: It is possible to respect a players time in a PVE game, DE chooses not to.

I know what I'm talking about, you just dont seem to know what it is you try to prove. You still fail to prove that PoE doesnt nerf current items. You only provided info regarding how players get to keep the worse of two items, that isnt the same as not being effected by nerfs, that just means you are allowed to keep the unchanged/unbuffed weaker item. And legacy Kaom is barely worth a thing, since it is usable only in non-league play and the only place it has been worth something was in a legacy themed league due to health as a stat being buffed and a viable defensive option. But that ment you had to find a legacy Kaom in a fresh league game, your old one was still a paperweight in your off-league stash or on your off-league character.

If anything DE respects player time since they dont do seasonal shennanigans.

8 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Ah but it wasn't mate. But then again, if you didn't know what made the weapon fun pre-nerf, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Thus, you do you.

Again fun =/= effective. Fun = subjective.

[Currilicious]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Again fun =/= effective. Fun = subjective.

Now you're twisting my words mate. I said you be you, I didn't mean hitting below the belt. Shame on you.

[Traumtulpe]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You only provided info regarding how players get to keep the worse of two items, that isnt the same as not being effected by nerfs

That is such a dishonest thing to say, especially after being shown Kaoms, and being told that players can upgrade if they wish to. I guess if you are just going to lie you might as well talk to yourself.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That is such a dishonest thing to say, especially after being shown Kaoms, and being told that players can upgrade if they wish to. I guess if you are just going to lie you might as well talk to yourself.

No, it is dishonest to say that it is the same as no universal nerfing, which is what you claimed. The legacy Kaom isnt a nerfed version of a Kaom, that is the original. It got buffed and people got to keep the weaker version instead of being force the new one on them, that is it. 

Maybe decide on what it is you actually wanna argue, nerfs or buff?

edit: Also you cannot upgrade to the new Kaom. You will only reduce the health stat on your legacy Kaom and nothing else.