Sisters of Parvos: Hotfix 30.5.2

[bulletsearl]

Oh and please look into that new Operator energy UI, it flickers when void dashing (tested with naramon)

[master_of_destiny]

DE, let's talk.  I'm not going to cite how exactly you've failed in this post, but I do want to talk about how we can do better.  

 

First off, the murmurs.  The version of this for the Sisters is pretty great.  The first ring basically requires 8 dead doggos...and that's fine.  The enemies are reasonably tough, and they spawn between 2-3 units per mission.  If you could transplant this level of commitment to the Liches it'd be great.  Right now, they basically haven't been altered in any appreciable way, so the grind there is by no means streamlined as promised.

 

Next, let's talk holokeys.  I'm not sure why you've decided to set the rewards value so low.  Neptune is pretty much the place to grind, and it awards half of a void storm in the veil.  That said, the veil is way more than twice as long to grind through.  Maybe we can get a more progressive increase here.  That is to say 2, 4, 7, and 11 keys.  This would make the veil worth going to, while slightly increasing the overall rewards.  I can only say that right now I have no reason to grind these void storms once I've gotten one of each item.  They're already a 5 forma sink.  They're already an element random roll.  They don't need to force us to grind the void storms as well.

 

Let's talk about the doggo companions (referred to as such to be distinct from the kubrows).  They're stupid.  That is to say their AI is standard companion AI in warframe...often making them suicidal.  Each doggo is randomly generated...so it's a random roll as to their stats once built.  Theoretically once you've killed a bunch of Sisters you can build your own...but I've thus far received two of the same brackets as rewards.  Not an auspicious start.

How about, instead, the Sister is guaranteed to drop all the blue prints for their respective doggo they had?  This ironically would lead to more grind (resources for crafting), but it'd push players to slaughter the dozen or so Sisters that are required, then start experimenting with them.  It'd also mean that instead of a crap shoot on the three types of mods we could run three experimental builds, then are incentivized to build "the ultimate" fourth doggo to be a standing companion.  Right now 2 of the 3 ability slots are tradeable, with the third being locked to the type.  It's unreasonable to ask us to grind the Sisters, grind the RNG single part drop, and do all of this knowing that in the next two years you'll inevitably stuff more weapons into this system and thus negate any investment we might make.

 

Let's wrap up with the Helminth.  I am going to express distaste that you didn't calculate new levels under the basic assumption of subsumed frames and required resources provide your early adopters with a level boost to match what they've already earned.  Note that this is not in-line with other MMOs...it's insulting that you'd even think that was a justification.  I'm starting to sound angry, because this was an insult.  My fix would be rework this garbage system.  Let's suggest that to gate progress you ignore the whole infusions and resource xp mess.  You've got about 50 frames.  Let's simply rank up those levels by the number of frames infused, and instead of unlocking those subsume limits you provide invigoration slots.  This marries the two systems, and effectively rewards players more for what they've done.  The math is dead simple and stupid.  Let me do it for you.

Rank: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

Subsume cost per rank: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5

Cumulative subsume cost: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 30, 35, 40, 45, 

By jove...it looks a lot like you'd need to crank out either an additional infusion, or a helminth ability, at about one per 18 months for the next 4.5 years...with the rate quickly extending to 21 months after.  Hmmm...an expanding system, that is minimal effort from DE with a maximal build-up.  All of this is hiding the fact that it's a stop-gap to replace certain useless abilities.  Moreover, you can still expedite this system with platinum via the subsumes...but the players already invested are not suddenly put out.

There is a statistical amount that is content...but at this point I'm still trying to understand why it is acceptable to go operator, fall through the floor, and be teleported outside of a mobile defense objective.  Yeah...railjack might now be a bigger pain to grind with the keys and Ambassador....but it's still buggier than most pre-alpha demos on kickstarter.  

[Old_Fogie]

Thanks for the hard math and the info folks, much appreciated.

[SuperBernas99]

Please fix the sily damage on the kuva gratler, for now reason both the hit damage and explosive damage are weaker then the damage on the reguler gratler

[EREBUS-LORN]

I don't know if that's intended or not but the Cadus can use the rivens for the Bo.

[DarknessNightshade]

2 hours ago, SuperBernas99 said:

Please fix the sily damage on the kuva gratler, for now reason both the hit damage and explosive damage are weaker then the damage on the reguler gratler

This is actually false, the base stats in terms of damage are exactly identical with the only change being the bonus element damage and probably changes to crit chance/damage, making it not much more better than just slapping 60/60 mod in there and calling it a day (I don't have the stats to hand but I have recently looked at them in-game)

Grattler has been subpar in terms of DPS since we had Mausolon, which has a massive innate 1000 blast damage per projectile, in this case Grattler does need a buff, among several other archguns that just don't match up.

As opposed to Voidrig's Exalted being able to easily pump out millions of radial damage, and do a mere 40 damage to the liches.

None of these changes have been explained, or why projectile weapons don't seem to benefit from a few galvanised mods with the extra damage per element inflicted, or why Liches/Sisters have massive damage dropoffs (in other words how their weaknesses just don't matter), or why they seem to spam their teleport abilities when they have it, or why thralls can tackle you consistently when dead, etc.

I do have a theory however, that DE has been working on these new updates for a while, because it would take more than a weekend to bang out an entirely new system for taking damage with the resistance mods currently available, thus being able to just slap it on in the hotfix to address exploits, so it's gonna take a bit longer than that to iron out the wrinkles.

 

[master_of_destiny]

2 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

This is actually false, the base stats in terms of damage are exactly identical with the only change being the bonus element damage and probably changes to crit chance/damage, making it not much more better than just slapping 60/60 mod in there and calling it a day (I don't have the stats to hand but I have recently looked at them in-game)

Grattler has been subpar in terms of DPS since we had Mausolon, which has a massive innate 1000 blast damage per projectile, in this case Grattler does need a buff, among several other archguns that just don't match up.

As opposed to Voidrig's Exalted being able to easily pump out millions of radial damage, and do a mere 40 damage to the liches.

None of these changes have been explained, or why projectile weapons don't seem to benefit from a few galvanised mods with the extra damage per element inflicted, or why Liches/Sisters have massive damage dropoffs (in other words how their weaknesses just don't matter), or why they seem to spam their teleport abilities when they have it, or why thralls can tackle you consistently when dead, etc.

I do have a theory however, that DE has been working on these new updates for a while, because it would take more than a weekend to bang out an entirely new system for taking damage with the resistance mods currently available, thus being able to just slap it on in the hotfix to address exploits, so it's gonna take a bit longer than that to iron out the wrinkles.

 

 

I find this statement like looking into the sun.  Every time I think I've got it, I'm confronted by more pain.

 

So....the math here is simple.  They even did it themselves.  Instead of resistance sum, they multiplied each reduction.  The logic here was literally something that I learned in 6th grade...though your mileage may vary.  This, to be clear, was the difference between convergent and divergent numbers.  Let me explain, for those who might have some time since they last looked at this.

https://www.ck12.org/book/ck-12-calculus-concepts/section/9.4/

Convergence Properties of Common Series Types

Series Type	Sigma Notation	Converges if	Diverges If
Arithmetic	S=∑n=1∞[t1+d(n−1)]	Never	Always
Geometric	S=∑n=1∞arn−1	|r|<1 with S=a1−r	|r|≥1
Harmonic	S=∑n=1∞1n	Never	Always
p-Series	S=∑n=1∞1np	p>1	p≤1

 

So....DE took something that was known about in a remedial text book (arithmetic addition never converges), and used it as their damage system.  The stop-gap logic was that of course, you could never have enough of these arithmetic factors to get 100%.  A less than ideal situation when you need to keep stuffing content into the game...and frankly stupid if anyone capable of math had reviewed the system in the last 8+ years.

[memic]

octavia's diva helment pigtails use warframe 'energy' color, please make it draw color from 'emmesive'

sorry for typo

[DarknessNightshade]

17 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

-snip-

I've already gone ahead and done the math for the problematic mods, grasping the math isn't the hard part. 

It was to address the fact that players were abusing mod stacking to become immune to eidolons.

And the damage reduction on liches is apparently a system they use to target high damage weapons and effectively nullify them for boss fights, so nearly every weapon with a high DPS will trigger this and effectively do nothing. 

It was made for Arquebex, Voidrig's Exalted that can dish out a million radial damage per shot pretty easily, because you can use Voidrig in the standoff, according to the 30.5 patch notes, because the devs playtested it and felt oblitering them was too easy (even though they've removed the damage invuln stages during that fight).

It's resulted in nerfs across the board, for many weapons that aren't their main concern, thus, my conclusion is that this system is not working properly, thus, a bug. 

 

[master_of_destiny]

2 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

I've already gone ahead and done the math for the problematic mods, grasping the math isn't the hard part. 

It was to address the fact that players were abusing mod stacking to become immune to eidolons.

And the damage reduction on liches is apparently a system they use to target high damage weapons and effectively nullify them for boss fights, so nearly every weapon with a high DPS will trigger this and effectively do nothing. 

It was made for Arquebex, Voidrig's Exalted that can dish out a million radial damage per shot pretty easily, because you can use Voidrig in the standoff, according to the 30.5 patch notes, because the devs playtested it and felt oblitering them was too easy (even though they've removed the damage invuln stages during that fight).

It's resulted in nerfs across the board, for many weapons that aren't their main concern, thus, my conclusion is that this system is not working properly, thus, a bug. 

 

 

Yeah...one more go, since memory does not seem to serve.  This is the second time they've played with this.  You might not remember it, but the damage reduction while in air mod also could functionally make invincibility.  Instead of fixing their math years ago, they nerfed the mod values and interation.

 

Back to my original point....is DE incapable of the math?  Whether you are or you aren't, I personally don't care.  The arithmetic addition of things is divergent.  That means over 100% was possible.  If they knew this....because it's basic math...then they have failures elsewhere.  Thus, the original and somewhat comical portrayal of this as a carnival barker trying to get people to bid on why the failure exists is meant to highlight that no matter your answer, it's some flavor of incompetent.

To be clear, somebody already knew this.  Look at the damage reduction due to armor equation.  Despite that, we're left with weapons grade stupid from mods.  Sigh.

[ShimmerDoll]

Yareli  still needs more. I have to spam attacks to kill things while many frames can do it in 1 button press. It's that simple and not great. I rarely have liked any new frames but Yareli, i like and that's the one that happens to be weak for whatever reason, when I can just swap to most anyone else and get the job done. Why not bring her up to par (and anyone else) with the better frames?  Also please fix her shoes, not in style anymore. It would have been better to make them like the comic book stuff in the quest, than what they are.

[blaes]

On 2021-07-07 at 10:26 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Sisters of Parvos: Hotfix 30.5.2  

The Waverider’s Heart Decoration has been added to the Riptide Supporter Pack (hot-dropped server-side last night). We’re working on a script to provide the Decoration to anyone who has already bought the Riptide Pack: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1269964-psa-sisters-of-parvos-riptide-supporter-pack-waveriders-heart-decoration/

Nice, now all that's left is to put the merulina domestik drone in the market outside of the pack so I can have several of these in my orbiter. Pretty please (with a cherry on top).

[CMarsh]

On 2021-07-08 at 11:40 PM, CMarsh said:

Hello.
In 30.5,

I did receive the other items on login, but I did not get this.
(I had 3 Liches vanquished when the update dropped,)

In 30.5.2,

If this relates to the above, sorry to report, it did not work.
If it refers to Oulls that should have dropped from enemies, then nevermind.

 

I am pleased to report that I do in fact have an Oull now.
@Mtrent and @Entelechy report the same.

[LillyRaccune]

On 2021-07-07 at 4:46 PM, Drachnyn said:

Do you mean to tell me DE has so little idea what makes something do lots of damage and what doesnt?

I would hate to suggest something negative about the devs. I know the staff member, QuietShy, DOES play warframe enough to be aware of what works and what doesn't... But yes, some of DE is out of touch with actual gameplay.

[Albion_Vortigern]

buffing bad abilities still makes them bad abilities