Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Scattered Justice: Modding (in)consistency


NovaUmbral

Recommended Posts

49 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

At this point DE just enjoys laughing at us

As long as they fix it none of that will matter.. as there no reason the Scattered Justice Mod can't be equipped yet the Kuva Drakgoon Can have the Drakgoon Syndicate mod equipped...

So hopefully just an oversight that is quickly fixed 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, (PSN)KCLegionOfZoom20 said:

the Kuva Drakgoon Can have the Drakgoon Syndicate mod equipped...

Which syndicate mod are we talking about? Because Fomorian Accelerant is not a syndicate mod.

I'm 99,99% sure SJ not working on Kuva Hek is intended. Split Flights can't be equipped on the most powerful bows so it's not like something like this is unprecedented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Kraethius said:

Which syndicate mod are we talking about? Because Fomorian Accelerant is not a syndicate mod.

I'm 99,99% sure SJ not working on Kuva Hek is intended. Split Flights can't be equipped on the most powerful bows so it's not like something like this is unprecedented.

Sorry that's the mod I ment

Anyway it would be nice to know for sure because #1 the kuva hek is only a minor upgrade over regular hek so mod should be allowed to be equipped..

#2 DE said the only reason the SJ mod couldn't be equipped on Vaykor Hek is because the Vaykor Hek already provided the Syndicate AOE Effect.. which is what the mod also provides.. something the Kuva Hek does not even have..

So unless they say so otherwise this is clearly an oversight...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, (PSN)KCLegionOfZoom20 said:

the kuva hek is only a minor upgrade over regular hek

You're joking right? Kuva is miles better than the base variant. At 60% bonus the Kuva Hek has base damage of 974 compared to normals 525, not to mention more than two times the crit. Rest of stats are all better as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have yet to acquire k. hek but with the stat upgrade, 60% bonus, and the new galvanized mod (stacking multishot), I believe k. hek will do just fine without scattered justice. 

btw, the updated critical deceleration gives you +200% critical chance, coupled with improved crit chance of k.hek it will be a monster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (PSN)KCLegionOfZoom20 said:

What gives I sure hope this is a bug because I can understand it not being equipped on Vaykor Hek since it already had the Syndicate Proc....

But the Kuva Hek isn't the Vaykor Hek can we please use the mod on Kuva Hek Because it's technically a Reskin of regular hek with a few upgrades...

Sadly, I don't think this is a bug. Look at the Split Flights situation when initially released.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ScatteredJustice.png

This mod is unavailable on Kuva Hek. Reasoning has been speculated and mostly unknown. Today I was sent a screenshot confirming that this is intentional and not a bug (Credits to @metafilms36for asking this question and sharing the response).

unknown.png

I want to review why this is unhealthy for the game, why it sets bad precedence for modding, and why DE needs to give us a solid foundation for why this exception exists.

Syndicate augments boost the power of weapons and their variants (with the exception of Gilded Truth which is only for Burston Prime). There are currently 12 Syndicate Augments that apply to a weapon and their variant:

  • Avenging Truth - Silva & Aegis (Prime)
  • Bright Purity - (Prisma) Skana (Prime)
  • Deadly Sequence - (Prisma) Grinlok
  • Disarming Purity - Panthera (Prime)
  • Entropy Burst - Supra (Vandal)
  • Entropy Detonation - (Prisma) Obex
  • Gleaming Blight - (Rakta) Dark Dagger
  • Justice Blades - (Prisma) Dual Cleavers
  • Lasting Purity - Vulkar (Wraith)
  • Sequence Burn - Spectra (Vandal)
  • Stinging Truth - Viper (Wraith)
  • Stockpiled Blight - (MK-1) Kunai

Note: I only listed Syndicate augments. I am aware of the plethora of other weapon specific augments that are applicable on variants unless stated specifically (like the Prime augments from Father in the Entrati.

Scattered Justice is the only Syndicate Augment that cannot work on variants of the weapon it is designed for. This sets bad precedence and inconsistency within modding as there are plenty of variants that can utilize their respective augment and benefit tremendously above the base weapon. Vulkar's Lasting Purity is a great example of this.

From Update 22.12.0: Shrine of the Eidolon:

Quote

We are revisiting all weapons and adjusting their stats to fit into some Mastery Rank grouping guidelines based on DPS and Crit/Status split total.

This means Kuva Hek is a direct upgrade to Vaykor Hek when comparing the Mastery requirements (15 vs 12). This is easily reflected within the stats. Kuva Hek cannot use the Syndicate augment despite being 3 Mastery Ranks higher when Silva & Aegis Prime can use its augment with a difference of 12 Mastery Ranks (12 vs 0). This is just an example where a direct weapon upgrade can still utilize an augment. This rule is applicable to all 12 augments I listed above.

There has also been a consistency within Warframe that a weapon may use a Syndicate Augment as long as the weapon is within the same family and said weapon does not have an innate Syndicate proc. Rakta Dark Dagger follows this rule. Vaykor Hek having a restriction from using the Scattered Justice augment makes sense as this weapon already has the syndicate effect baked in. 

I would like to discuss with players (maybe even DE if they wish to share the reasoning for this decision) on why modding inconsistencies and exceptions hurt the game going forward and create unnecessary confusion as well as devalue weapon variants going forward as players may have to question whether any future augments apply to upgraded weapons of the same family. Kuva Weapons are meant to be highly upgraded Grineer weapons (The same can be said for Tenet weapons from Sisters). This is no different than a Wraith, Prime, Vandal, Prisma, Ceti, Mara, or any other weapon prefix. If Kuva Hek becomes a better Vaykor Hek, that is just part of gear progression as Vaykor Hek is much more accessible compared to Kuva Hek given their acquisition differences. There is no difference between Kuva Hek beating Vaykor Hek with the augment and Vulkar Wraith annihilating base Vulkar with Lasting Purity equipped on both.  It is very strange that an update catered towards increasing the power of primary and secondary weapons is restricting players to not make a single target shotgun too effective in combat. Kuva Hek with the augment would still not compete with AoE options such as Kuva Tonkor (that can use the Tonkor weapon augment by the way).

I also want to note that this information being withheld from the playerbase leading up to Sisters of Parvos is disingenuous to everybody, especially when this decision cannot be found within the patch notes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That image really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I can't possibly fathom a reason for us to not be able to use the augment on the kuva variant. 

I agree that it is disingenuous to us, and it should have been mentioned. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Voltage said:

ScatteredJustice.png

This mod is unavailable on Kuva Hek. Reasoning has been speculated and mostly unknown. Today I saw a screenshot confirming that this is intentional and not a bug.

unknown.png

 

10 minutes ago, TheGuyver said:

That image really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I can't possibly fathom a reason for us to not be able to use the augment on the kuva variant. 

I agree that it is disingenuous to us, and it should have been mentioned. 

The Vaykor Hek, I was always told there was a bug about both the mod and the weapon granting the Justice explosion, and they didn't bother fixing it because the Vaykor was just flat-out better

But the Kuva Hek? It does seem weird.

I have to wonder if the devs decided "Lich weapons cannot use Syndicate mods" and ended up only creating one weapon/mod where that is the case. I am pretty sure there is no Parvos Cestra or Parvos Supra, and there is definitely no Kuva Sobek or Kuva Dual Cleavers. It could have been an intended consistency, that was pared down to one instance, and the one instance in isolation looks like an inconsistency with something else

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Syndicate augments boost the power of weapons and their variants (with the exception of Gilded Truth which is only for Burston Prime). There are currently 12 Syndicate Augments that apply to a weapon and their variant:

  • Avenging Truth - Silva & Aegis (Prime)
  • Bright Purity - (Prisma) Skana (Prime)
  • Deadly Sequence - (Prisma) Grinlok
  • Disarming Purity - Panthera (Prime)
  • Entropy Burst - Supra (Vandal)
  • Entropy Detonation - (Prisma) Obex
  • Gleaming Blight - (Rakta) Dark Dagger
  • Justice Blades - (Prisma) Dual Cleavers
  • Lasting Purity - Vulkar (Wraith)
  • Sequence Burn - Spectra (Vandal)
  • Stinging Truth - Viper (Wraith)
  • Stockpiled Blight - (MK-1) Kunai

Worth pointing out that there are no Kuva weapons in that list.  Kuva Weapons are special beyond the variants you listed here, as is evidenced by their ability to rank to 40, as well as their bonus elemental properties.  These are benefits other weapons don't share, so it seems reasonable enough to treat them like their own things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well seeing as I am the guy in the screenshot, I guess I'll weigh in.

 

I understand that normally in games and communities like this there is usually a notable concern with "power-creep" and that is really the only argument i could think of as to why they would disable the mod, (outside of a coding issue on their part). But why wouldn't the Kuva weapons be allowed to be a bit powercrept from their normal variations, it takes a vastly greater amount of effort and the difficulty in obtaining it. It should be stronger than the original in every conceivable way, and it almost is.

I know some people that I know are concerned about it being another on release Kuva Bramma where it would just absolutely break everything, and I really just dont think thats near a concern, its still far weaker than the Bramma now let alone that its a single-target weapon as opposed to the Bramma mass AOE.

I do like the weapon series alot and will continue to use the kuva hek regardless because its base damage per pellet is high enough to make it viable for somewhat higher level entities (havent finished modding it yet and cant personally say if it will be viable for steel path) where the base hek falls off because of its low damage per pellet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

[...]

Well this bites. Much as I can't say I'm surprised, since Warframe's become a game marred by inconsistencies, I was kind of hoping things would've been different in this case.

Should'a known, I suppose.

I do hope that they do revert their decission, though. I've been wanting to mess with the Kuva Hek for a while, as I've got an old Oberon P loadout that uses the base version. Based on what you're telling me, it seems like I shouldn't even bother with a Kuva Hek.

Which, at the end of the day, fine by me. Hades is still giving me the eyes. Still, it sucks to read regardless.

As for

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

I have to wonder if the devs decided "Lich weapons cannot use Syndicate mods" and ended up only creating one weapon/mod where that is the case.

I'm going to echo something I said back when the Soaktron skin was announced to be a "Universal Rifle Skin" and turned out not to be:

Where is that clarification? Where is that information to be found? Has DE said anything about it? If so, where? Why is that the first anyone hears of it?

Reb and Megan do an amazing job as the faces of DE towards the community, but Jesus H Christ if it doesn't feel like DE'd rather keep the community in the dark most of the time.

 

EDIT: So I've found out Flux Overdrive works on the Tenet Flux Rifle, which means that it's not something where DE has decided to keep mods out of Kuva/Tenet variants.

Hilariously enough, given that I mention the Soaktron up above and something similar happened with it, I think the cause is likely to be:

24 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Kuva Hek has an alt fire.

Though, I wil insist:
Where is the info about Scattered Justice not working on a Kuva Hek due to it having an alt fire to be found?
Why has DE not said anything about it, if it was deliberate?
Why is the community guessing as to what exactly is the reason behind this inconsistency?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But the Kuva Hek? It does seem weird.

I think I might know why they decided on not allowing Scattered Justice for Kuva Hek, (or at least one part of it)

Kuva Hek has an alt fire. if you alt fire with a full magazine (4 rounds), you fire off all of them at once, and I think either due to the complexity of trying to get the augment to work properly with two fire modes, or concern that the added multishot would make the alt fire a bit too overpowered. my money is on the former, as I don't think it would be overpowered personally, but DE might think it is.

also note that all of the other weapons listed with Syndicate mods are weapons with only one fire mode, so I reckon that's the issue. now that I think about it, the Entrati prime weapon augments are also for weapons with no alt-fire. that can't be a coincidence lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Paranoicon said:

Where is that info to be found?
Why has DE not said anything about it, if it was deliberate?
Why is the community guessing as to what exactly is the reason behind this inconsistency?

it literally says in the weapon's description that it can fire all four barrels simultaneously. it counts as an alt fire because if you try to do it with less than 4 rounds, you'll reload the gun instead, just as with other alt-fire guns if there isn't enough ammo left in the magazine for the Alt-fire to be used. 

if it really is a case of "we couldn't allow it because of the alt-fire", then they should have said so. but when you consider that all augmented weapons (besides Panthera, but that *might* be a special case as it's not a ranged alt-fire) are single fire mode only, it makes me wonder if DE maybe tried to allow Scattered Justice, but then something went wrong with the alt fire and it made the gun broken.

the alt fire fires all 4 shells, so it's whatever your multishot would be multiplied by 4. a Hek with all the multishot mods AND scattered Justice (and possibly a Riven with +Multishot) would probably be a bit nuts. I agree though that they should at least explain *why* it isn't allowed. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

[...]

I mean, specifically, why does Scattered Justice not apply to the Kuva Hek.

I know that the Kuva Hek has an alt fire. I know where it says it has an alt fire.

I don't know where DE has explained to the community that Scattered Justice will not apply to the Kuva Hek because it has an alt fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Paranoicon said:

I don't know where DE has explained to the community that Scattered Justice will not apply to the Kuva Hek because it has an alt fire.

I don't think they have: it's just a theory, based on how none of the other weapons with augments have an alt fire that requires a specific amount of ammo. all that was said by DE is that it will likely not be changed. I apologise if you were expecting hard evidence but there isn't any, hence why I'm as confused as you: if I knew EXACTLY why the augment doesn't work I'd gladly share that info with everyone. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I apologise if you were expecting hard evidence

You don't have to. I wasn't expecting it, because there is none. Which is my point. There should be. DE should have said something about this.

Because, now, the community is confused, left to test out what works and what doesn't, and to try and guess why.

Because now, all the community has is a screenshot of a statement given to a single individual with a claim that, despite how non-commital it is, feels rather definitive. No explanation as to the motive, no public announcement of the decission.

As Voltage mentioned, there's nothing about it in the patch notes, or anywhere else. The information that we have, we only have because someone happened to ask. Not because anyone at DE gave that explanation to the community. And, like I said, it's not even the first time that it happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is effectively 0 reason to get this weapon as it is for the most part a direct downgrade to the Vaykor Hek, which is arguably easier to get. Half the mag capacity, slower fire rate, lower crit chance, and it can't even equip the Shattering Justice mod despite lacking any innate Justice effect on the weapon. Kind of ironic considering this update had no justice itself.

Make Shattering Justice equipable at the very least. It makes no sense for this weapon to be unable to use it when it already has so many downsides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Paranoicon said:

You don't have to. I wasn't expecting it, because there is none. Which is my point. There should be. DE should have said something about this.

Because, now, the community is confused, left to test out what works and what doesn't, and to try and guess why.

Because now, all the community has is a screenshot of a statement given to a single individual with a claim that, despite how non-commital it is, feels rather definitive. No explanation as to the motive, no public announcement of the decission.

As Voltage mentioned, there's nothing about it in the patch notes, or anywhere else. The information that we have, we only have because someone happened to ask. Not because anyone at DE gave that explanation to the community. And, like I said, it's not even the first time that it happens.

In any case, the Tenet Tetra seems to accept both of its augments as well, though the Tenet Detron can't use it's augment, but the Drakgoon can. Which means that:

A) "Kingpin" weapons that have syndicate mods are not elligible for syndicate mods.

B) Weapons with alt firemodes that allow them to burst fire the entire magazine are not allowed to use their augments.

Tenet and Kuva weapons can use their respective augments. It's literally just Kuva Hek that is restricted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Voltage said:

Tenet and Kuva weapons can use their respective augments. It's literally just Kuva Hek that is restricted.

Ah, #*!%, yep, you're right.

  • Tenet Flux can use Flux Overdrive
  • Tenet Tetra can use Kinetic Ricochet and Focused Acceleration
  • Tenet Detron can use Thermagnetic Shells
  • Kuva Drakgoon can use Fomorian Accelerant
  • Kuva Ogris can use Nightwatch Napalm
  • Kuva Tonkor can use Precission Strike

Turns out I was looking at outdated wiki data for the Tenet Detron claim. My bad on that one.

Though this only really means we're back to square one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...