The new lich's damage reduction is insane

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Nice to see words being put in my mouth. I have never said or implied that they are unbeatable, just that they are tedious fights due to artificially high DR and that things that allow me to bypass/completely ignore this are what make them tolerable.

You've LITERALLY used the word "IMPOSSIBLE" like a dozen times in this thread. Don't try to play the saint, lol

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You've LITERALLY used the word "IMPOSSIBLE" like a dozen times in this thread. Don't try to play the saint, lol

Please, give me some pictures. I won't edit anything.

[NecroPed]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You've LITERALLY used the word "IMPOSSIBLE" like a dozen times in this thread. Don't try to play the saint, lol

I think that's actually me

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Bullet Sponge =/= Good Challenge.

The Requiem combo was supposed to be the puzzle to the damage-resistant lich/sister. Now the requiems are just a time-gate mechanic to force us to participate in a railjack mission.

Bullet Sponge IS part of the challenge, though.  You may not LIKE that particular kind of challenge, but it IS a challenge nonetheless.

And it's NOT JUST a "bullet sponge".  There are various weaknesses, resistances, powers, etc to figure out and work around.  There IS a clever way to go about fighting them that isn't just "shoot until dead".  

That people keep boiling it down to that oversimplification tells me alot about why they're struggling.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Please, give me some pictures. I won't edit anything.

 

2 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I think that's actually me

Yup, my bad, that was Necro.   Point is, you (talking to TWOW now) absolutely have insisted, in black-and-white text, that they can only be effectively beat with "exploits", which is not true at all.

[LillyRaccune]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

That people keep boiling it down to that oversimplification tells me alot about why they're struggling.

Okay then. I'll youtube for the best meta build and STILL get insulted by players like you.

Thanks.

[NecroPed]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

Yup, my bad, that was Necro.   Point is, you (talking to TWOW now) absolutely have insisted, in black-and-white text, that they can only be effectively beat with "exploits", which is not true at all.

I agree that's definitely not true, they can be beaten without exploits. As long as you're not getting cheesed by potentially impossible combinations. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

Yup, my bad, that was Necro.   Point is, you (talking to TWOW now) absolutely have insisted, in black-and-white text, that they can only be effectively beat with "exploits", which is not true at all.

No I haven't. I've said that cheese tactics make them bearable. You can beat them without it, but they're tedious. but again, I welcome a direct quote that of myself that says I can only beat them with exploits.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

A mission that impossible until it randomly isn't is not a challenge. 

No, it's not "Impossible" until "Randomly not", though.

that's just you misreading "Difficult" until "Opening/Opportunity to win", in all fairness.


Like, look, I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk about this, but these forums are a friggin' roller coaster of "MAKE IT MORE CHALLENGING!"  to "TOO HARD! MAKE EASIER!" back to "WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE? GAME TOO BRAINDEAD!" ad nauseum!

It stands to reason that if something we "impossible", no one could do it.  We know, however, for a FACT, that many, many players IN THIS THREAD have admitted to doing it.  Therefore, NOT IMPOSSIBLE.   Fair enough?

Now, DIFFICULT?  Yeah, surely it is... as it was designed to be.  But not impossible.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

3 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Okay then. I'll youtube for the best meta build and STILL get insulted by players like you.

Thanks.

My intent is not to insult... I've not called anyone a single name..  I'm only clarifying the difference between "Difficult" and "Impossible".  

And pointing out the inconsistency within the playerbase of them asking for "harder content", but then denouncing it every time it arrives.

The Sisters are NOT the first bit of content that came along, presented a challenge, and then the forums IMMEDIATELY raged about, demanding a nerf to.   They won't be the last, either, sadly.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, NecroPed said:

I agree that's definitely not true, they can be beaten without exploits. As long as you're not getting cheesed by potentially impossible combinations. 

Have some actual advice other than "Ur bad lol."
Silence (Banshee's 3rd ability) prevents enemies from using abilities if you didn't know (its not really broadcast that it does this in-game). I don't know how the Sister clones are created, but I assume its via an ability, so it should get blocked by Silence. Its also Banshee's Helminth ability, so you can infuse it on any frame.

[NecroPed]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

No, it's not "Impossible" until "Randomly not", though.

that's just you misreading "Difficult" until "Opening/Opportunity to win", in all fairness.


Like, look, I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk about this, but these forums are a friggin' roller coaster of "MAKE IT MORE CHALLENGING!"  to "TOO HARD! MAKE EASIER!" back to "WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE? GAME TOO BRAINDEAD!" ad nauseum!

It stands to reason that if something we "impossible", no one could do it.  We know, however, for a FACT, that many, many players IN THIS THREAD have admitted to doing it.  Therefore, NOT IMPOSSIBLE.   Fair enough?

Now, DIFFICULT?  Yeah, surely it is... as it was designed to be.  But not impossible.

Im not going to keep arguing this because you clearly have no idea what I experienced. Sisters CAN be impossible. Doing 2 impossible missions before it provides a mission that is beatable is not a challenge. Im not saying they're all impossible, what I'm saying is that they can be impossible in a mission. 

When I say a mission was impossible it was that specific mission. Not every encounter. Not every sister. Particular combinations and experiences resulted in the mission being impossible. Can it be done? Yes. I've completed this particular sister. But, it was IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL THE SISTER IN TWO OUT OF THREE MISSIONS due to the circumstances provided. There is an issue here, I don't think its as simple as lower the damage reduction across all sisters, but there is definitely an issue with it. 

[NecroPed]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Have some actual advice other than "Ur bad lol."
Silence (Banshee's 3rd ability) prevents enemies from using abilities if you didn't know (its not really broadcast that it does this in-game). I don't know how the Sister clones are created, but I assume its via an ability, so it should get blocked by Silence. Its also Banshee's Helminth ability, so you can infuse it on any frame.

When I took silence, MY abilities were getting silenced because the spectres (that spawn at my feet and one shot kill me) would silence me. Even preventing me from using silence.

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb NecroPed:

False. It was impossible. If only I had video so you could see. Because in two out of three missions it was impossible. I loved the challenge of my first sister, the second out of nowhere became impossible until it didn't for some reason spawn spectres at my feet that ONE SHOT KILL ME WHILE TRYING TO AVOID CONSTANT CC FROM 20 ENEMIES THAT STEAL YOUR WEAPONS WHILE ALSO HAVING YOUR ABILITIES NEGATED. 

A mission that impossible until it randomly isn't is not a challenge. 

Okay. Let me ask you this then: Do you think I don't play the same game as you?

The encounter is regularly "impossible" for you. You say this isn't because of you, it is because of how the encounter is designed. The same encounter I also do, that I never consider impossible.

Did you at any point when you kept insisting that the encounter is impossible ever consider that I don't disagree with you because your argument is insufficient, or because I don't find you a believable character, or because I don't fully understand your opinion, but because I'm playing the same damn game you do and know from experience that it's not?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, NecroPed said:

When I took silence, MY abilities were getting silenced because the spectres (that spawn at my feet and one shot kill me) would silence me. Even preventing me from using silence.

Damn, guess my advice really backfires then.

[NecroPed]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Okay. Let me ask you this then: Do you think I don't play the same game as you?

The encounter is regularly "impossible" for you. You say this isn't because of you, it is because of how the encounter is designed. The same encounter I also do, that I never consider impossible.

Did you at any point when you kept insisting that the encounter is impossible ever consider that I don't disagree with you because your argument is insufficient, or because I don't find you a believable character, or because I don't fully understand your opinion, but because I'm playing the same damn game you do and know from experience that it's not?

Its not regularly impossible. One sister in teo out of three rank 5 missions were impossible, period. Don't believe me, I don't care. 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb NecroPed:

Its not regularly impossible. One sister in teo out of three rank 5 missions were impossible, period. Don't believe me, I don't care. 

Well, then apparently the devs just hate you and programmed these impossible encounters to only exist for you and not for me.

[NecroPed]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Well, then apparently the devs just hate you and programmed these impossible encounters to only exist for you and not for me.

No, it is a circumstantial problem that probably comes from the whole procedurally generated part of this system. Which causes the inconsistency between sisters that you don't want to acknowledge.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb NecroPed:

No, it is a circumstantial problem that probably comes from the whole procedurally generated part of this system. Which causes the inconsistency between sisters that you don't want to acknowledge.

Okay. So you're just unlucky that you have these impossible to beat Sisters in two out of three missions, and I'm just lucky to have them never. Sounds likely.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

17 hours ago, Lordmotav said:

Just tried Nyx's 2, can confirm it's absolutely disgusting how good it is. It makes them about as durable as a wet cardboard box. I can't believe I'm gonna have to start using this frame, of all things. But it's just so EASY.

Well that's all the motivation I need to finally dust off Nyx.

[YantaForce]

Yeah it's like Nyx was made to be the sister slayer, I can easily destroy them with my Pyrana Prime.

[Anaktoria]

On 2021-07-07 at 2:58 PM, (PSN)Wildman537 said:

These new sisters have ridiculous damage reduction, and I do mean insane damage reduction. Here's just ONE example:

http://imgur.com/a/gjiBTJc

Here is a link to a few screenshots I took just a couple min ago on ps4, shown just 6 seconds before attacking the sister is a single stropha shot killing a level 90 shield osprey with 2,053,825 damage, but just a few seconds later, even procing 3 statuses to activate condition overload, I was only able to do a measly 1,274 damage (310~ per instance with mirage clones). That's a 99.94% less damage! 

 While using other weapons like the kuva ogris, or the morgha, i was never able to see a single damage proc over 1k. Most fell around 100-200, before quickly reducing as low as 20-40 damage with sucsessive hits. Im not sure what calculations are in play here, it seems like a max damage per hit has been set mixed with scaling damage reduction from quick sucsessive hits, but this exact build use to 1 shot each health bar of level 5 liches before the update. Now it can barley tickle them. Im curious what everyone elses experiences have been, but i hope its not even worse than my own.

DISCLAIMER, as some seem confused: all of the below is merely my personal opinion. It is not, as surprising as this may be, any form of scientifically proven fact or similar.

I think something important to note is that many of us, including you, I'm sure, are not simply unable to defeat the Sisters. We can, and it's not even hard. But it is not fun.

The new system for damage attenuation means that setups like yours or mine, that easily one- or two-shot Kuva Liches before the Sisters of Parvos update, now take hundreds of shots to kill a rank 5 Sister. I haven't yet acquired a Kuva Lich under the new system, but I presume it's similar. And it isn't that we're just using bad cheese or that we need to use certain niche builds, because many experienced players with similar setups are reporting exactly the same findings here, and no one has yet come out with something that even comes close to nuking these new nemeses.

The result of making the Sisters tankier in this manner is that we - even those of us who have optimized weapons - now need to stand around for a minute, two minutes, three minutes, just to kill a Sister once. We're doing exactly the same attacks with the exact same, or similar, weapons, over and over, and they still get the job done in the end - it just takes much longer. And that is an added hoop to jump through - a time check, a question of, do I have the patience and space in my schedule to do this? - but it does not make the game more challenging or engaging or interesting; quite the opposite. It has become more tedious and simultaneously less exciting. I find my mind wandering as I sit there whittling down my Sister. I find myself wondering in frustration why I'm not using this time to do something I care more about. And eventually I will in fact just use my time to do something that I do care more about, and I'll stop playing the Sisters, and that's fine, but you don't add updates to a game wit the hope that people will want to not play them, so...something doesn't add up here on DE's end.

The fact that Sisters teleport around, go invisible, place decoys, play hide-and-seek? That, at least, is a step towards making the gameplay exciting, challenging, forcing you to be on your toes. I will not make any commentary on whether I like that or feel it could be improved because this is not the place for that commentary, but my point is to contrast it with the new damage reduction system and to emphasize that I am not saying any method of making content more challenging (or with the intention of this) is unwelcome. I love when devs do that, in fact. I liked the Glassmaker boss fight a lot because it was more challenging than the usual fare - and you'll note that not one bit of that increased difficulty arose from simply nerfing player-dealt damage during the fight.

The new damage attenuation system is, shortly put, overtuned. It forces all players - even those of us who worked hard to optimize our gear (yes, even when we play to the Sisters' weaknesses; I did this myself) - to take a minimum of one or two minutes just to whittle down the health and shield bars of these nemeses. Sure, nemeses can and should be tanky, and I welcome buffing them so they can't be one-shot by some or all of the things that used to be able to one-shot them. But I would've expected a tankiness buff to make them take five, ten, even twenty times longer to kill. This change is on the order of fifty times longer to kill or more. That feels like an overt punishment of and disrespect towards players and their time, effort, and general interest in the game.

Here's video of me one- or two-hitting a rank 5 Kuva Lich while playing solo pre-Update 30.5 (using Valkyr with Hysteria, no Enraged augment), just so everyone knows I'm not talking out my ass about that part.

 

[Vahenir]

Banshee and nyx nerfs coming in 3... 2... 1...

[Krankbert]

 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Anaktoria:

I think something important to note is that many of us, including you, I'm sure, are not simply unable to defeat the Sisters. We can, and it's not even hard. But it is not fun.

The new system for damage attenuation means that setups like yours or mine, that easily one- or two-shot Kuva Liches (...) but it does not make the game more challenging or engaging or interesting; quite the opposite.

 

Please, go on and tell me how you like a challenge while explaining to me why it's just not fun when you can't one-shot literally every enemy in the game. I'm listening.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Anaktoria:

I liked the Glassmaker boss fight a lot because it was more challenging than the usual fare - and you'll note that not one bit of that increased difficulty arose from simply nerfing player-dealt damage during the fight.

  Maybe you can elaborate more about how not one bit of the challenge of the Glassmaker fight arose from not being able to simply one-shot him. I'd really like to hear you explain that.

 

[Anaktoria]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

 

Please, go on and tell me how you like a challenge while explaining to me why it's just not fun when you can't one-shot literally every enemy in the game. I'm listening.

I encourage you to re-read my post more carefully and to take deep breaths before responding or reacting. I know this thread has had some tensions in it, but I am here for civil discussion and genuine dialogue, and would appreciate you engaging with me as such. I am not here to attack anyone, to make strawmen, or to make others feel invalidated, and I appreciate those who respond similarly to me. Thanks!