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The new lich's damage reduction is insane


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I tried many things to deal some resonable damage to the sisters. Using their weakness or using 100% armor stripp doesn't do much, the damage is still reduced by like 98%.
IMO it is stupidity to create some mechanics in game that ignore all previous mechanics and calculations only because you have no will to fix the original ones.
 

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1 hour ago, Anaktoria said:

Wanted to add, because I just had a fight with my current Sister at rank 3 - I'd like to add that I feel rank 3 Sisters strike a decent balance between damage reduction and everything else (both in on-planet fights, and during the final showdown in the railjack mission). I think it would be cool if DE could balance rank 5s to be a little closer to rank 3s.

You summed it up very well! Agree with all of this, and thank you for understanding my post, spot-on.

Damage scaling similar to rank 3's may be a good idea, not reliable one shot territory, but still able to be downed with heavy weapons with a bit of patience.

Another issue I see with the current system other than what this thread has been discussing is the fact that there is no animation implemented for when your lich leaves for the railjack node upon successfully using all 3 parazon mods on them. Not sure if its just a glich on PlayStation right now, but the lich just dissapears mid parazon finisher animation with no diologue, animation, or anything, the screen just returns to normal gameplay instantly with the lich having vanished. this transition is quite jarring and made me think my sister glitched out when I first beat her.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, herflik said:

I tried many things to deal some resonable damage to the sisters. Using their weakness or using 100% armor stripp doesn't do much, the damage is still reduced by like 98%.
IMO it is stupidity to create some mechanics in game that ignore all previous mechanics and calculations only because you have no will to fix the original ones.
 

You may try using banshee, I built her for lich hunting (0 forma, only a potato) and even at level 5 she can near instantly erase the liches shields/health, not to mention her silence ability causes liches, hounds, and enemy specters to become unable to use their abilities. Just be carefully as she is quite squishy, I put mesa's shooting gallery over her 4 for a half decent croud controll

Edited by (PSN)Wildman537
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9 hours ago, Anaktoria said:

I think something important to note is that many of us, including you, I'm sure, are not simply unable to defeat the Sisters. We can, and it's not even hard. But it is not fun.

The new system for damage attenuation means that setups like yours or mine, that easily one- or two-shot Kuva Liches before the Sisters of Parvos update, now take hundreds of shots to kill a rank 5 Sister. I haven't yet acquired a Kuva Lich under the new system, but I presume it's similar. And it isn't that we're just using bad cheese or that we need to use certain niche builds, because many experienced players with similar setups are reporting exactly the same findings here, and no one has yet come out with something that even comes close to nuking these new nemeses.

The result of making the Sisters tankier in this manner is that we - even those of us who have optimized weapons - now need to stand around for a minute, two minutes, three minutes, just to kill a Sister once. We're doing exactly the same attacks with the exact same, or similar, weapons, over and over, and they still get the job done in the end - it just takes much longer. And that is an added hoop to jump through - a time check, a question of, do I have the patience and space in my schedule to do this? - but it does not make the game more challenging or engaging or interesting; quite the opposite. It has become more tedious and simultaneously less exciting. I find my mind wandering as I sit there whittling down my Sister. I find myself wondering in frustration why I'm not using this time to do something I care more about. And eventually I will in fact just use my time to do something that I do care more about, and I'll stop playing the Sisters, and that's fine, but you don't add updates to a game wit the hope that people will want to not play them, so...something doesn't add up here on DE's end.

The fact that Sisters teleport around, go invisible, place decoys, play hide-and-seek? That, at least, is a step towards making the gameplay exciting, challenging, forcing you to be on your toes. I will not make any commentary on whether I like that or feel it could be improved because this is not the place for that commentary, but my point is to contrast it with the new damage reduction system and to emphasize that I am not saying any method of making content more challenging (or with the intention of this) is unwelcome. I love when devs do that, in fact. I liked the Glassmaker boss fight a lot because it was more challenging than the usual fare - and you'll note that not one bit of that increased difficulty arose from simply nerfing player-dealt damage during the fight.

The new damage attenuation system is, shortly put, overtuned. It forces all players - even those of us who worked hard to optimize our gear (yes, even when we play to the Sisters' weaknesses; I did this myself) - to take a minimum of one or two minutes just to whittle down the health and shield bars of these nemeses. Sure, nemeses can and should be tanky, and I welcome buffing them so they can't be one-shot by some or all of the things that used to be able to one-shot them. But I would've expected a tankiness buff to make them take five, ten, even twenty times longer to kill. This change is on the order of fifty times longer to kill or more. That feels like an overt punishment of and disrespect towards players and their time, effort, and general interest in the game.

Here's video of me one- or two-hitting a rank 5 Kuva Lich while playing solo pre-Update 30.5 (using Valkyr with Hysteria, no Enraged augment), just so everyone knows I'm not talking out my ass about that part.

 

It's not the Devs, it's you, my dude.  If you can't spare "one to two minutes" to fight a high-tier boss with crazy rewards.... then you probably don't have time to be playing this game.  

Honestly, the way you're saying things, it just sounds like you're impatient and you're being childish about not being able to have instant gratification.

Also, sidenote:  The fight with Nihil, the Glassmaker, actually was ONLY the way it was PRECISELY BECAUSE player damage was nerfed!  Not in spite of it, as you suggest.  The fact that we all did THE SAME DAMAGE, and did not use our weapons/powers, was what balanced it, lol.  So yeah, player damage was nerfed into oblivion for that fight (and I love that fight, too).

These Sisters offer NEW COMPANION + High Tier WEAPONS on defeat.  They aren't meant to be something we just burn through like bugs on a windshield.  Clearly DE wants Kuva and Tenet grinds to last more than a week... and there's NOTHING wrong with that design.

If you're finding yourself torn between Warframe and "doing better things", then do yourself a favor and go do those other things... because clearly Warframe isn't feeling worth your time, in your own words.

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Posted (edited)
Am 7.7.2021 um 23:58 schrieb (PSN)Wildman537:

These new sisters have ridiculous damage reduction, and I do mean insane damage reduction. Here's just ONE example:

http://imgur.com/a/gjiBTJc

Here is a link to a few screenshots I took just a couple min ago on ps4, shown just 6 seconds before attacking the sister is a single stropha shot killing a level 90 shield osprey with 2,053,825 damage, but just a few seconds later, even procing 3 statuses to activate condition overload, I was only able to do a measly 1,274 damage (310~ per instance with mirage clones). That's a 99.94% less damage! 

 While using other weapons like the kuva ogris, or the morgha, i was never able to see a single damage proc over 1k. Most fell around 100-200, before quickly reducing as low as 20-40 damage with sucsessive hits. Im not sure what calculations are in play here, it seems like a max damage per hit has been set mixed with scaling damage reduction from quick sucsessive hits, but this exact build use to 1 shot each health bar of level 5 liches before the update. Now it can barley tickle them. Im curious what everyone elses experiences have been, but i hope its not even worse than my own.

will be nerfed for sure soon. as well as damage to new weapons - they are just too good compared to the usual 90% trash weapons in the game.

I actually like the way it is now. i have no problems with the damage at all. i know almost all tactics and it's not a secret either.
Perhaps uncomfortable for beginners and causalists, but even they will find out quickly enough how to survive and do a lot of damage comfortably.

Edited by Battle.Mage
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12 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Bullet Sponge IS part of the challenge, though.  You may not LIKE that particular kind of challenge, but it IS a challenge nonetheless.

What challenge?  I've killed multiple liches since the update and at no point in any of the fights have I ever felt like there was the slightest chance I was going to lose to one of those harmless blobs of EHP.  That said, I've been focusing on the kuva weapons so far so I haven't fought a sister yet, but according to my friends who have, the only "difficulty" comes from the fact that one element (radiation I think) gives them Malice's BS instant kill Magnetize.

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3 minutes ago, zuraja said:

What challenge?  I've killed multiple liches since the update and at no point in any of the fights have I ever felt like there was the slightest chance I was going to lose to one of those harmless blobs of EHP.  That said, I've been focusing on the kuva weapons so far so I haven't fought a sister yet, but according to my friends who have, the only "difficulty" comes from the fact that one element (radiation I think) gives them Malice's BS instant kill Magnetize.

Good thing there's ways to avoid radiation procs.

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22 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Good thing there's ways to avoid radiation procs.

It's not a radiation proc.  And even if it was, those only matter if you're in a group or are doing a mission where you have to keep a defense objective alive..

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I've made a couple posts before about this, but I think the insane damage reduction may be due to the way DE have changed damage reduction to work.

The value on the mod is not the actual reduction you get thanks to it being changed to being calculated on damage remaining.

So Umbral mod sets now only have 48.8% (80% remaining per mod approximately, 0.80 x 0.80 x 0.80) reduction compared to the 77% on the mod.

Thus, the Liches/Sisters must have some form of Adaptation or reduction built in that seems to affect any and all procs on them set to some stupid high reduction, practically ignoring any and all weaknesses they might have.

This change was made to stop people abusing mod sets to become invincible to certain damage types, as the % reduction was additive, even though you can get pretty close to 0 with a certain setup.

Thus, I can only assume the Liches and their damage values not reflecting what our mod configs say to be a bug until DE verifies otherwise.

 

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Posted (edited)

Is anyone actually surprised that DE overshot the damage reduction on something?

Regular Liches were also rather spongy at launch iirc, and that's to say nothing of the complete train-wreck that was The Wolf of Saturn Six or some of the Railjack Grineer at Railjack's launch.

DE has a history of dramatically overestimating their skill with math and releasing bloated damage sponges, but honestly I can't fault them quite so much when they have to account for rampant power creep deleting anything they release unless it is in that insane DR bloat zone (even though DE themselves are at fault for not reigning in the power creep when they had the chance).

Edited by Aldain
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8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Is anyone actually surprised that DE overshot the damage reduction on something?

Regular Liches were also rather spongy at launch iirc, and that's to say nothing of the complete train-wreck that was The Wolf of Saturn Six or some of the Railjack Grineer at Railjack's launch.

DE has a history of dramatically overestimating their skill with math and releasing bloated damage sponges, but honestly I can't fault them quite so much when they have to account for rampant power creep deleting anything they release unless it is in that insane DR bloat zone (even though DE themselves are at fault for not reigning in the power creep when they had the chance).

Warframe Revised should have been about streamlining how damage multipliers interacted together. Reining in multiplier interactions on both sides to make things easier for themselves in the future.

Instead they just played hokey pokey with status procs.

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I said it before, I'll say it again.

 

Here's a hydroelectric dam.

Here's a single disposable plastic spoon.

Now take that spoon and drill a hole straight through the dam with that spoon.

When you're done, come tell me if you had fun.

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9 minutes ago, Wolfwaffe said:

I said it before, I'll say it again.

 

Here's a hydroelectric dam.

Here's a single disposable plastic spoon.

Now take that spoon and drill a hole straight through the dam with that spoon.

When you're done, come tell me if you had fun.

Do I get to keep the spoon? 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

To YOU.

"Fun" is subjective.  Just because YOU do not enjoy the current gameplay does NOT mean others don't.  

Your opinion =/= objective facts.

Of course. It goes without saying that these are all simply opinion, and I’m very surprised so many people have trouble understanding that. Refer to my reply to Charlotte if you need further clarification.

In your other response, you called me childish and impatient. It’s clear we have vastly different perspectives here, and I’m happy to agree to disagree, but if you can’t make your point without insulting people, I think you might want to look at yourself and what you’re actually feeling here. None of this needs to be taken personally!

Anyway, “that’s just, like, your opinion, dude,” and all of that.

EDIT: I've added disclaimers to remind everyone that yes, of course these things are all my opinion and nothing more, just in case anyone else wants to jump on this bandwagon and ask me "why I'm stating things like they're not just my opinion?!" Come on now. This is getting pretty silly.

Edited by Anaktoria
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8 hours ago, (PSN)Wildman537 said:

You may try using banshee, I built her for lich hunting (0 forma, only a potato) and even at level 5 she can near instantly erase the liches shields/health, not to mention her silence ability causes liches, hounds, and enemy specters to become unable to use their abilities. Just be carefully as she is quite squishy, I put mesa's shooting gallery over her 4 for a half decent croud controll

Which mechanic of banshe is actually making the diffrence? It is not armor strip since I used 100% armor strip succesfully (HP bar turns to red) and it didn't do much diffrence. I also used banshe silence on my other frame as augment and it also didn't do much.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, herflik said:

Which mechanic of banshe is actually making the diffrence? It is not armor strip since I used 100% armor strip succesfully (HP bar turns to red) and it didn't do much diffrence. I also used banshe silence on my other frame as augment and it also didn't do much.

Banshee's sonar. Its currently multiplying the damage after the liches damage reduction, easily multiplying your damage delt 10-20x 

Edited by (PSN)Wildman537
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Also, sidenote:  The fight with Nihil, the Glassmaker, actually was ONLY the way it was PRECISELY BECAUSE player damage was nerfed!  Not in spite of it, as you suggest.  The fact that we all did THE SAME DAMAGE, and did not use our weapons/powers, was what balanced it, lol.  So yeah, player damage was nerfed into oblivion for that fight (and I love that fight, too).

On lunch break, so I noticed this and just wanted to clarify: The Glassmaker case was most definitely not a nerf of (existing) player damage, not anything even related to (existing) player damage. The Glassmaker case was a complete replacement of the player damage system - of our existing, carefully curated weapons and abilities and builds - with a unique, independent form of dealing damage. That's why it's completely different, as well as acceptable to me.

If the Sister fights took away all our weapons and abilities and forced us into using solely a special mech called a Frungleshrump to fight in, and the Frungleshrump only had a single void-powered slingshot to fire identical pebbles with, and could not be modded, and if the Frungleshrump dealt to Sisters the sort of constant three-digit damage players currently see coming from the top weapons they've spent a lot of time and effort to lovingly mod to hell and back - combined with all their fancy buffs and abilities - if that were the case, I would understand getting the results we have now. But alas, we have no Frungleshrump. We have things that should be dealing significant damage - sure, maybe less damage than they normally would, but still more than what we see (in my opinion, as always) - and yet are not. Worse, they're performing relatively similarly to things that should objectively, by any other metric in the game, perform much worse (going back to the Frungleshrump metaphor, this is different from a case like Glassmaker where everyone gets to use the same identical, wholly unchangeable damage system).

The Glassmaker had a version of the Frungleshrump in the form of glass projectiles Nihil gives us, instead of using player weapons or damage sources. So no, sorry, your argument here falls apart. In fact, your own words explain exactly why your thesis regarding a nerf to player damage is incorrect ("[...] did not use our weapons/powers [...]" - not a nerf of existing player damage, a replacement by something else completely). Also, you'll note the Glassmaker's glass balls did a lot more damage per shot than each weapon hit currently does against a Sister (to be clear, I'm not saying that each hit versus a Sister should uniformly remove 1/4 of their health or I'll riot - but hopefully you're creative enough to understand the point I'm making).

Finally, something important that I feel you're also missing in my thesis: most of the challenge and fun of Nihil did not come from the process of dealing damage itself (this is, I believe, a community opinion at large, but feel free to remind me that in the end this is also only my opinion). The damage-dealing in that fight took an instant (per health gate). The rest of the fight was spent dodging, ducking, leaping, predicting platform falls, predicting swings, aiming shots, remembering quest clues, and so forth. This is the kind of thing I would certainly want Sister fights to be balanced more in favor of, time-wise, instead of towards waiting for damage to soak in.

TL;DR: temporary event replacement of the existing damage system with another, separate damage system is not the same as a nerf; the Glassmaker fight, though involving a damage cap, had a much better balance between damage dealability and fun mechanics to create challenge for the player (in fact, damage dealing took out a third of his health each time, so essentially a 3-hit, compared to, well, what Sisters have right now). Disclaimer, this is all my opinion (except facts about how much health is taken out per hit on the Glassmaker and such), blah, blah.

Hope this makes sense!

Edited by Anaktoria
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Damage reduction is not insane. Theres is no point of having end fight one shotting sisters in the head, POW, exit.

 

Problem is their one shotting abilites(or hounds, have no idea) on us, crazy teleporting and gazzzillion of effects on your screen. And i thought eidolons were bad. This is next level.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

If mech renaming ever becomes a thing, that is what I'm gonna call them.

+1 for that, another +1 for the rest of the post

I’m glad you appreciated the Frungleshrumps, I rather like them too 😂😂

Edited by Anaktoria
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20 hours ago, herflik said:

I tried many things to deal some resonable damage to the sisters. Using their weakness or using 100% armor stripp doesn't do much, the damage is still reduced by like 98%.
IMO it is stupidity to create some mechanics in game that ignore all previous mechanics and calculations only because you have no will to fix the original ones.
 

Pretty sure we have a way to not use damage reduction to 98%, but that involves heavy blanket nerfing on everything in warframe to the point a level 100 bombard will feel menacing for a full team

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Whether DE nerfs our damage directly or implements scaling damage reduction on all the new enemies that actually matter, the end result is the same.

Warframe is getting stuck in the trap of anything we grind being invalidated in the very next update.

I thought Eidolons were bad. Grind Eidolons for better amp, to kill Eidlolons faster.

Necramechs were this one off thing for Orphix Venom where your collection Warframes, melee and guns were all useless, just like in Glassmaker.

Now its, grind Liches for new weapons that tickle them as well as your old weapons because scaling DR. The Necramech you grinded last time won't do squat.

Feels Bad.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure we have a way to not use damage reduction to 98%, but that involves heavy blanket nerfing on everything in warframe to the point a level 100 bombard will feel menacing for a full team

  1. Critical Multiplier additive with Base Damage. 4.4x Multiplier = +340% Base Damage
  2. Viral procs additive with Base Damage. +325% Base Damage at 10 procs
  3. Headshot multiplier replaced with flat +100% Critical Chance.
  4. All +%Multi-shot comes with equal -%accuracy.

Wouldn't even have to change the modding ui. That screen doesn't show you how Crit or status procs influences final weapon damage anyways.

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