The new lich's damage reduction is insane

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2021-07-10 at 1:37 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

They do seem to have a per hit damage cap, that kinda makes high damage weapons pointless,

Even though this makes sense to prolong a fight ,

it is rather stupid even if effective, like cutting your nose to spite your face stupid.

i will simply be using a more rapid fire weapon with relatively lower damage per shot to stay under the cap.

Seeing numbers in the hundreds where earlier they are much higher does take away some of the fun away.

Dont get me wrong , i am glad that they arent getting one shot and present a commendable challenge,

but i never liked pigeon holing in games and i don't like it here.

This.  Just bring frames with defensive capabilities.

[Thaxano]

il y a 25 minutes, (PSN)Silverback73 a dit :

This.  Just bring frames with defensive capabilities.

yeah it allow to survive but it doesn't resolve the problem about "how to beat them the quickest"

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This does, however, suggest one of the issues.

Sniper rifles, after all, are literally defined by being able to do lots of damage to a single target. They're practically the archetypical 'assassin' weapon of the modern age, with the possible exception of something like a knife. This is usually counteracted, including in Warframe, by having them be sub-par in close-quarters fights or large group battles. Most games, even horde-shooter games with sniper rifles or sniper-like weapons will usually feature circumstances where there's big powerful enemies  to justify using the sniper rifles on.

So If Warframe is at a point where the game needs to actively prevent weapons from doing the thing they're supposed to be good at doing, then maybe we need to take a step back and start questioning if the whole damage system is busted.

Yup.

Again: A statsquish is needed

Severely reduce the power of our mods AND the scaling of health/armor/shields of enemies. Not only would that allow for less crazy extremes (which has lead us to the Sisters' current state), but the following things would also become more relevant all of a sudden:

• Flat damage powers
• Damage reflection
• Enemy conversion and Radiation procs
• Healing (since one-shots won't be the same issue anymore)

No longer do they become nearly as useless later on, if the statsquish is done properly.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This does, however, suggest one of the issues.

Sniper rifles, after all, are literally defined by being able to do lots of damage to a single target. They're practically the archetypical 'assassin' weapon of the modern age, with the possible exception of something like a knife. This is usually counteracted, including in Warframe, by having them be sub-par in close-quarters fights or large group battles. Most games, even horde-shooter games with sniper rifles or sniper-like weapons will usually feature circumstances where there's big powerful enemies  to justify using the sniper rifles on.

So If Warframe is at a point where the game needs to actively prevent weapons from doing the thing they're supposed to be good at doing, then maybe we need to take a step back and start questioning if the whole damage system is busted.

...but weapons AREN'T being prevented from functioning as intended.  You can STILL take your weapons and slaughter hordes of enemies just the same as you always could...

THESE BOSSES in PARTICULAR are just tough.   

Also, Snipers DO have a role... precision.  Headshots/Weakpoints can bypass shield-gating, and other defenses, and do CRAZY damage....  That counts for something.  

Not all weapons will be good against every boss... that's not how bosses work in most ANY game, much less Warframe.  That's not a bad thing, either.

Here, we have a challenging, personalized nemesis that is tough to kill, and rewards us with a NEW, BUILT COMPANION, parts for ANOTHER companion, AND we get a NEW WEAPON!  And we can even trade that enemy FOR PLAT!  lol   Oh, and cosmetics are a thing, too!

Risk vs Reward.  Better rewards = tougher challenge.  DE shouldn't be expected to let us farm new cosmetics and strong weapons as if they're beginner gear, yeah?

[Danielw8]

i tried many ways, and everything works fine, every lich i found some lvl 5 and died in literally 1 min timer

Harrow + kuva brakk/tenet cycron

Nezha + roar + vigorous swap + kohm

gauss + eclipse akstiletto prime/hikou prime

Nova + zenurik blast + hystrix

No armor strip, no massive debuffs like banshee, just decent builds, and being super honest i didnt change anything for the fight, i can add even more damage (im literally using 6060 mods)

The only "problems" i had, was radiation procs and my random squads shooting with aoe damage and killing everyone of us (fixed by nezha) but aside this, the fight is easy...

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...but weapons AREN'T being prevented from functioning as intended.  You can STILL take your weapons and slaughter hordes of enemies just the same as you always could...

THESE BOSSES in PARTICULAR are just tough.   

Also, Snipers DO have a role... precision.  Headshots/Weakpoints can bypass shield-gating, and other defenses, and do CRAZY damage....  That counts for something.  

Not all weapons will be good against every boss... that's not how bosses work in most ANY game, much less Warframe.  That's not a bad thing, either.

Here, we have a challenging, personalized nemesis that is tough to kill, and rewards us with a NEW, BUILT COMPANION, parts for ANOTHER companion, AND we get a NEW WEAPON!  And we can even trade that enemy FOR PLAT!  lol   Oh, and cosmetics are a thing, too!

Risk vs Reward.  Better rewards = tougher challenge.  DE shouldn't be expected to let us farm new cosmetics and strong weapons as if they're beginner gear, yeah?

The bosses are only tough because they play by different rules than the rest of the game. Due to scaling DR, they ignore our mods and our progression.

Snipers have no role. They are overkill against fodder, while arbitrarily denied from being good against bosses. AOE weapons and bullet hoses are better against hordes and due to scaling DR, better against bosses too.

Overpowered weapons are only useful against fodder the game shipped with because fodder between level 1 to 9999 don't drop anything of particular value and drops don't scale.

The kicker is that the new Tenet weapons are no better against the new bosses than the old weapons we already have due to scaling DR and there is no point of MR past 30.

There is no more meaningful power progression past this point. DE tried to alleviate this by nerfing melee because it scales too well.

 

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...but weapons AREN'T being prevented from functioning as intended.  You can STILL take your weapons and slaughter hordes of enemies just the same as you always could...

THESE BOSSES in PARTICULAR are just tough.   

Also, Snipers DO have a role... precision.  Headshots/Weakpoints can bypass shield-gating, and other defenses, and do CRAZY damage....  That counts for something.  

Not all weapons will be good against every boss... that's not how bosses work in most ANY game, much less Warframe.  That's not a bad thing, either.
 

You touch on my problem whilst denying it is a problem.

Sniper, like you say, have a role. Precision weapons. Precision weapons, by their very nature, have to be assassin/boss killer weapons, because a precision weapon will always be less effective than a rapid-fire weapon or an AoE weapon at a close-quarters gunfight against multiple weak opponents.  The defining characteristics for precision weapons tend to be a lower fire rate and rewarding careful aim - both things that don't help when half a dozen enemies are rushing you down and you need to kill all of them or leave in the next three seconds. But which do help you against single enemies that can shrug off lower damage weapons with ease, because they can hit above their weight, and you have the space to make your shots. 

With this in mind, different weapons serve different purposes. Not all weapons are good in all situations. AoE weapons are good crowd clearers, and might get mixed into being 'power' weapons if they're given high damage too. But they're usually also reserved to being low-ammo weapons to compensate. Shotguns usually either serve as the 'old reliable' or as a power weapon, depending on the game. If a game doesn't leverage the shotgun into 'old reliable' then a pistol will usually do that. Otherwise they might be given silencer functions and/or a quickdraw to make them good at stealthier play or as a backup. Assault rifles are jacks of all trades usually, decent at anything but often lacking any real upsides. And snipers allow you to pick off bosses or end fights from outside an enemy's combat range, making them 'power' weapons that are richly desirable for their ability to control a fight.

 

However, due to the way the DR works, Assault Rifles are better against these bosses. And it's worth noting that, whilst it's more substantial for Liches and Sisters, a great many bosses in this game work this way - Sargas, Sentients and Lephantis all have damage caps.  In addition, Warframe doesn't really have that large of a 'combat range' in most circumstances or any real positions where the player can stand without being hit. Which means that snipers kind of don't have any role. Likewise, the overwhelming bias towards large numbers of weak enemies benefits AoE, and the damage system, especially armour, really just prevents AoE weapons from being able to flourish as just add clearers because they need armour piercing just to fill that role, letting them also be heavy or boss fighters too.

Single target weapons of all sorts already suffer from a lack of purpose in Warframe, and snipers have the worst of it. At least shotguns can bypass this issue due to them dealing lots of damage instances at once.

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And it's worth noting that, whilst it's more substantial for Liches and Sisters, a great many bosses in this game work this way - Sargas, Sentients and Lephantis all have damage caps.

Those hard damage caps also contribute to why they are INSUFFERABLE to fight at any level other than the base star chart, not hard, just bloated and boring.

Railjack Sentients in particular drive me to drink from how obnoxiously designed they are.

We wouldn't have these damage caps if DE didn't have to account for insane power creep.

[-Augustus-]

I hope this has already been mentioned in the last 9 pages, but they can be melted in seconds once you accept the mechanics and work with them. Subsumed gloom + KNukor with their weakness and a bunch of CD/CC/MS and the corpus bane mod. Just walk up to her, stick it in her face, and watch her die in less than a reload. Hydraulic crosshairs is better for this than the new galv headshot mod, fwiw.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Aldain:

Those hard damage caps also contribute to why they are INSUFFERABLE to fight at any level other than the base star chart, not hard, just bloated and boring.

Railjack Sentients in particular drive me to drink from how obnoxiously designed they are.

We wouldn't have these damage caps if DE didn't have to account for insane power creep.

What makes them insufferable to fight isn't the damage caps, it's that Warframe players, as a group, are hopelessly terrible. A Lephantis assassination sortie typically takes about 6-7 minutes with me doing ten times the damage of the rest of the group combined. Sure, the fight would go a lot faster without the damage reduction. It would also go a lot faster if all players did a relevant amount of damage to the boss instead of just one of them.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

What makes them insufferable to fight isn't the damage caps, it's that Warframe players, as a group, are hopelessly terrible. A Lephantis assassination sortie typically takes about 6-7 minutes with me doing ten times the damage of the rest of the group combined. Sure, the fight would go a lot faster without the damage reduction. It would also go a lot faster if all players did a relevant amount of damage to the boss instead of just one of them.

Group or solo that damage cap isn't designed for the levels of eHP that a level 100 variant of Lephantis can reach, especially if it is an Augmented Armor modifier.

To me it shows that several of the damage formulas of the game are entirely messed up and don't scale well, especially when the damage cap doesn't scale with the eHP that enemies can get.

Just because a player CAN get around a badly designed system doesn't mean that it is viable, you could drive a Ferrari through a forest but that doesn't mean a dirt path is a good road for it.

[ShogunGunshow]

TBH, I really enjoy the toughness.

I went in without special preparation to fight my first sister, and it was kind of Hell. I managed to get her, but I downed a few times. I was worked up, frantic, nervously watching my buffs to make sure I stayed up as I took her down.

This'll obviously go away as people find the ez mode cheats to shortcut their abilities, but for now? Warframe hasn't made me feel that way in a LONG time. The numbers could be adjusted to make fast firing weapons a little weaker against them or slower, hard hitting weapons a little stronger, but I'd rather this not go away.

I mean jeez, it's a boss encounter in Warframe that, for once, wouldn't require obnoxious invulnerability phases. This is what players have said they wanted! 

[fo3nixz]

they not so bad. im using ash & spectra vandal  solo for the  liches.

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

What makes them insufferable to fight isn't the damage caps, it's that Warframe players, as a group, are hopelessly terrible. A Lephantis assassination sortie typically takes about 6-7 minutes with me doing ten times the damage of the rest of the group combined. Sure, the fight would go a lot faster without the damage reduction. It would also go a lot faster if all players did a relevant amount of damage to the boss instead of just one of them.

That highlights the core issue with Warframe's damage system. Damage multipliers and damage dividers all over the place making things needlessly complicated.

Enemies can have +10x ehp over the enemy next to it.

A player can deal 10x more damage than the rest of the squad combined.

The in game advice is actually wrong. Tool tip literally says "Puncture is best against armor".

Bane mods are multiplicative with Base Damage despite the wording not suggesting that at all.

There are a bunch of hidden damage mechanics that players need to check the wiki written by Simulacrum warriors.

Power to the people who work out these intricacies, but it's no wonder DE has a needlessly difficult time balancing the game when most of them barely understand it or are bound to overlook things.

It's neat that the capped Corrosive breaks even with a full strip at 4500 Ferrite armor a level 74 heavy gunner sports, which is where the new gentler scaling kicks in. Missed the ball on Viral/Slash. Losing 4xIPS weighting did not balance Viral's buff because HM and stances.

Warframe needs a stat squish. Replace multiplier interactions with additive ones on both sides.

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

18 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

TBH, I really enjoy the toughness.

I went in without special preparation to fight my first sister, and it was kind of Hell. I managed to get her, but I downed a few times. I was worked up, frantic, nervously watching my buffs to make sure I stayed up as I took her down.

This'll obviously go away as people find the ez mode cheats to shortcut their abilities, but for now? Warframe hasn't made me feel that way in a LONG time. The numbers could be adjusted to make fast firing weapons a little weaker against them or slower, hard hitting weapons a little stronger, but I'd rather this not go away.

I mean jeez, it's a boss encounter in Warframe that, for once, wouldn't require obnoxious invulnerability phases. This is what players have said they wanted! 

Honestly, invincibility phases are better than scaling damage reduction. Invincibility phases don't invalidate your forma  investments for one and snipers actually have a purpose for their high burst damage.

[Circle_of_Psi]

That kinda explains alot

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You touch on my problem whilst denying it is a problem.

Sniper, like you say, have a role. Precision weapons. Precision weapons, by their very nature, have to be assassin/boss killer weapons, because a precision weapon will always be less effective than a rapid-fire weapon or an AoE weapon at a close-quarters gunfight against multiple weak opponents.  The defining characteristics for precision weapons tend to be a lower fire rate and rewarding careful aim - both things that don't help when half a dozen enemies are rushing you down and you need to kill all of them or leave in the next three seconds. But which do help you against single enemies that can shrug off lower damage weapons with ease, because they can hit above their weight, and you have the space to make your shots. 

With this in mind, different weapons serve different purposes. Not all weapons are good in all situations. AoE weapons are good crowd clearers, and might get mixed into being 'power' weapons if they're given high damage too. But they're usually also reserved to being low-ammo weapons to compensate. Shotguns usually either serve as the 'old reliable' or as a power weapon, depending on the game. If a game doesn't leverage the shotgun into 'old reliable' then a pistol will usually do that. Otherwise they might be given silencer functions and/or a quickdraw to make them good at stealthier play or as a backup. Assault rifles are jacks of all trades usually, decent at anything but often lacking any real upsides. And snipers allow you to pick off bosses or end fights from outside an enemy's combat range, making them 'power' weapons that are richly desirable for their ability to control a fight.

 

However, due to the way the DR works, Assault Rifles are better against these bosses. And it's worth noting that, whilst it's more substantial for Liches and Sisters, a great many bosses in this game work this way - Sargas, Sentients and Lephantis all have damage caps.  In addition, Warframe doesn't really have that large of a 'combat range' in most circumstances or any real positions where the player can stand without being hit. Which means that snipers kind of don't have any role. Likewise, the overwhelming bias towards large numbers of weak enemies benefits AoE, and the damage system, especially armour, really just prevents AoE weapons from being able to flourish as just add clearers because they need armour piercing just to fill that role, letting them also be heavy or boss fighters too.

Single target weapons of all sorts already suffer from a lack of purpose in Warframe, and snipers have the worst of it. At least shotguns can bypass this issue due to them dealing lots of damage instances at once.

So:
1. If you're running straight at an enemy in the open with a sniper, I'd suggest you're not using a sniper as intended.  Bring a stealth frame and snipe 'em from outside their immediate attack vicinity.  It has ZOOM for a reason.  It's not meant to be an aggro weapon.

2. You're also CONFIRMING that different weapons have different levels of efficacy vs the Sisters.  SO WHERE WAS I WRONG?  Where is there a PROBLEM with that? lol  EVERY game since the DAWN of gaming has had "more effective" and "less effective" options vs problems.  It's up to the player to figure them out and solve them.

3. Again, you are NOT being "punished" for "forma investment".  Your weapons work best against hordes, and when in NICHE, HARDER CONTENT, you bottleneck a bit and need to be more thoughtful (Heaven forbid) than vs your usual grunt.  THAT'S NOT A BUG, it's a FEATURE.  And it's GOOD.

Anyways, if you've discovered what works better than other options, sounds like you solved the problem and know how to proceed.  Where's the issue in that?  

17 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

I hope this has already been mentioned in the last 9 pages, but they can be melted in seconds once you accept the mechanics and work with them. Subsumed gloom + KNukor with their weakness and a bunch of CD/CC/MS and the corpus bane mod. Just walk up to her, stick it in her face, and watch her die in less than a reload. Hydraulic crosshairs is better for this than the new galv headshot mod, fwiw.

^^^^^^^^^  THIS ^^^^^^^^^    There are already dozens of ways to melt the Sisters.  Why are people complaining about not being able to use a hammer to screw in a screw, rather than just using the tools for the job that are clearly best?

 

12 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

TBH, I really enjoy the toughness.

I went in without special preparation to fight my first sister, and it was kind of Hell. I managed to get her, but I downed a few times. I was worked up, frantic, nervously watching my buffs to make sure I stayed up as I took her down.

This'll obviously go away as people find the ez mode cheats to shortcut their abilities, but for now? Warframe hasn't made me feel that way in a LONG time. The numbers could be adjusted to make fast firing weapons a little weaker against them or slower, hard hitting weapons a little stronger, but I'd rather this not go away.

I mean jeez, it's a boss encounter in Warframe that, for once, wouldn't require obnoxious invulnerability phases. This is what players have said they wanted! 

THIS! ^^^   The players, en masse, really have no idea what they want...  They want "challenge", but also want to be able to steamroll content.  Friggin' hell...

12 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The in game advice is actually wrong. Tool tip literally says "Puncture is best against armor".

Bane mods are multiplicative with Base Damage despite the wording not suggesting that at all.

You misunderstand that line/tip.  It's not saying "Puncture is THE best against Armor."  It's saying that Puncture, vs all types of enemies, is better used against Armor than any other kinda of damage resistance (shields/flesh, etc).   They aren't trying to stuff a whole mod lesson into one tip, good grief...

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

1. If you're running straight at an enemy in the open with a sniper, I'd suggest you're not using a sniper as intended.  Bring a stealth frame and snipe 'em from outside their immediate attack vicinity.  It has ZOOM for a reason.  It's not meant to be an aggro weapon.

The AI hardly allows that in mane cases. Aggro is automatic once the alarms are on. Stealth is its own can of worms, but it makes any weapon into a 'not aggro' weapon because it's basically just invulnerability for the whole mission, provided you're not actively throwing yourself on another player or the objective. This is doubly true when you consider that this is certainly the case if you can use any other mass-kill weapon with a silence mod slapped into the exilus slot (or just a melee weapon) and be far more effective. Snipers can't make for light stealth on non-invisibility frames, and they're outperformed by horde-clearers on 'stealth' frames.

Besides, it's hardly like the map design is conducive to using a sniper as your primary weapon when close-quarters is far and away the norm. Snipers are niche weapons already - their niche is being assassin tools that are good against bosses. And they aren't even good at that because due to arbitrary restrictions, other weapons which already have a niche are better at that  job.

6 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

2. You're also CONFIRMING that different weapons have different levels of efficacy vs the Sisters.  SO WHERE WAS I WRONG?  Where is there a PROBLEM with that? lol  EVERY game since the DAWN of gaming has had "more effective" and "less effective" options vs problems.  It's up to the player to figure them out and solve them.

The problem is that weapons which are already good and desirable for other reasons are the best in this scenario, whereas the weapons which struggle to have relevance are prevented from having it.

You aliken this situation to people complaining about using a hammer to knock in screws, but the situation is that the game is 'oops all screws', and the hammer, the glue, the sticky tape, the cord and all the other ways to put two things together are left out to rust.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The AI hardly allows that in mane cases. Aggro is automatic once the alarms are on. Stealth is its own can of worms, but it makes any weapon into a 'not aggro' weapon because it's basically just invulnerability for the whole mission, provided you're not actively throwing yourself on another player or the objective. This is doubly true when you consider that this is certainly the case if you can use any other mass-kill weapon with a silence mod slapped into the exilus slot (or just a melee weapon) and be far more effective. Snipers can't make for light stealth on non-invisibility frames, and they're outperformed by horde-clearers on 'stealth' frames.

Besides, it's hardly like the map design is conducive to using a sniper as your primary weapon when close-quarters is far and away the norm. Snipers are niche weapons already - their niche is being assassin tools that are good against bosses. And they aren't even good at that because due to arbitrary restrictions, other weapons which already have a niche are better at that  job.

The problem is that weapons which are already good and desirable for other reasons are the best in this scenario, whereas the weapons which struggle to have relevance are prevented from having it.

You aliken this situation to people complaining about using a hammer to knock in screws, but the situation is that the game is 'oops all screws', and the hammer, the glue, the sticky tape, the cord and all the other ways to put two things together are left out to rust.

You do realize, Snipers are, by nature, "stealth" weapons...  right?   I mean, they're meant to be used from a concealed vantage point, taking advantage of stealth to take the time to line up a kill shot.  They've got scopes because they're intended to be fired from far away, not from upclose.  They CAN be used in close range, but that's not the intent.

Thus, grab a frame that can stay out of sight, put on a hush mod, and stalk your enemy like Sisters, Bosses, etc.  Even with aggro on, they can't attack what they can't see. 

And you've basically agreed that stealth WORKS, so again, acknowledging that there IS a solution does not disprove my assertions, it confirms them. :/ 

---

I'm likening this situation to people complaining about tools that don't work for the job...when they weren't designed for said job.  We KNOW several tools to get the job done effectively and efficiently, and you're complaining that you can't use the screwdriver to hammer the nail.  

So, do you not understand?  If people are complaining that "hammering this nail is TOO HARD!" and we're offering solutions like "Have you tried an actual hammer?" and y'all are just here like "NO! I wanna use my screwdriver, or this tape dispenser, or my pen, to hammer it in! I should be allowed OPTIONS!" 

If you don't see the issue with that, I don't really know how else to put it to make it clearer :/ 

[L3512]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You do realize, Snipers are, by nature, "stealth" weapons...  right?   I mean, they're meant to be used from a concealed vantage point, taking advantage of stealth to take the time to line up a kill shot.  They've got scopes because they're intended to be fired from far away, not from upclose.  They CAN be used in close range, but that's not the intent.

In your mind, reality or warframe?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

17 minutes ago, L3512 said:

In your mind, reality or warframe?

I don't understand your question...   Snipers ARE stealthy weapons.  Most snipers, IRL, are hidden, are distant, and are patient.  They are not front-line infantry.  I mean, that's just facts >.>  And the weapon class in Warframe is based, obviously, on that weapon and it's intended styles.

My "mind" has nothing to do with it.  

[herflik]

The current DR's for bosses is stupidly absurd. Its no problem that players scale to high power, thats actualy normal for games. Enemies should also scale to such extent but with standard mechanics like armor or HP. I would have completly no problem if the lich had 100 million HP with like 50% DR and used standard dmg calculations in this process.

Because the standard calculations means that : heavy hits are slow but heavy, fast are weaker but really responsive, snipers are hiting like trucks but need aim etc. - simply everything has its gameplay style that have pros and cons. Where the current mechanic, introducing dmg cap per hit is basicaly negating all slow and heavy hiting weapons and that is breaking balance between weapon cathegories.

I really dont understand what is so gamebreaking in giving bosses millions or even billions of HP - every aRPG scale like that and it works. Warframe have some issue with basics because there is lazy-playerbase that barely do proper builds with 50k DPS and min-maxers that can do 10kk DPS.
DE is trying, like social goverment, to reward everyone which is counter-intuitive to what game or any sport should reward for. You are lazy, dont want to learn, dont want to farm, dont want to invest = you will be weaker = you will do less content.
DE is like "no matter how crappy you are you must be able to do all content and we will balance the game according to that" - by simple physic law it is impossible to work well, because the only way is to dumb it down to minimum-effort with warframe actually is now. On the other hand DE is fighting with itself trying to make it more challanging wihich is opposite to first statement.

[L3512]

4 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I don't understand your question...   Snipers ARE stealthy weapons.  Most snipers, IRL, are hidden, are distant, and are patient.  They are not front-line infantry.  I mean, that's just facts >.>  And the weapon class in Warframe is based, obviously, on that weapon and it's intended styles.

My "mind" has nothing to do with it.  

Things have changed in the last 50 years. Maybe check your "just facts".

[Fl_3]

Inaros is the answer, all you have to do is out tank them.

Cedo to apply status, Kuva Nukor because it's so much stronger after the nerf, and a combi build Volnus Prime.

Honestly, I'm finding Liches way harder to kill than Sisters.

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You do realize, Snipers are, by nature, "stealth" weapons...  right?   I mean, they're meant to be used from a concealed vantage point, taking advantage of stealth to take the time to line up a kill shot.  They've got scopes because they're intended to be fired from far away, not from upclose.  They CAN be used in close range, but that's not the intent.

Thus, grab a frame that can stay out of sight, put on a hush mod, and stalk your enemy like Sisters, Bosses, etc.  Even with aggro on, they can't attack what they can't see. 

And you've basically agreed that stealth WORKS, so again, acknowledging that there IS a solution does not disprove my assertions, it confirms them. :/ 

In real life, this is possible. Sitting a mile away and shooting somebody is the primary role of sniper rifles in real life. In Warframe, and in games, due to various gameplay restrictions, they usually need a similar role, but not one that is identical to real life. In Warframe, this niche does not meaningfully exist.

Like you say, Bosses can't attack what they can't see. This, however, applies to literally any weapon type because of how 'Stealth' in Warframe works. Most of those other weapon types which are capable of this are also more effective than sniper rifles in both the 'kill a single big target' and 'kill everything else' roles (which is my primary concern). Therefore, snipers do not have a gameplay niche in that respect. Stealth is not a solution to the problem of sniper rifles lacking a purpose in the sandbox. Just because something can be used that way does not mean that is its intended or primary role in the weapon 

A weapon can only be described as having a niche if it is better at that role than the majority of other weapons. This is especially true if it's niche is in reality, only a small part of something other weapons do.

6 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I'm likening this situation to people complaining about tools that don't work for the job...when they weren't designed for said job.  We KNOW several tools to get the job done effectively and efficiently, and you're complaining that you can't use the screwdriver to hammer the nail.  

So, do you not understand?  If people are complaining that "hammering this nail is TOO HARD!" and we're offering solutions like "Have you tried an actual hammer?" and y'all are just here like "NO! I wanna use my screwdriver, or this tape dispenser, or my pen, to hammer it in! I should be allowed OPTIONS!" 

If you don't see the issue with that, I don't really know how else to put it to make it clearer :/ 

Because this shouldn't be a screw, and there aren't any nails in the game.

Sniper rifles have no other role other than 'kills a boss real good' because every other possible role in the sandbox they could take is subsumed by other mechanics or weapons. Therefore, any situation where 'kills a single enemy real good' is the main objective should have sniper rifles at least be a reasonable option, no? Perhaps not the main one, or the only one by any stretch, but given that Snipers aren't useful anywhere else, that is what they are good for.

But they aren't.

I am not complaining that I am hammering a nail with a screwdriver. I am complaining that the screwdriver is better than the hammer at hammering in nails, whilst also having literally dozens of screws that it can be used on.