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Helminth once again frustrates veterans.


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The first round of pain for veterans was needing to rebuild all the warframes we sold through the years for a few measly credits. New players got to send their non-prime straight to Helmith with no wasted time or effort.

Now there's the new 5 levels to helminth. Again, veterans have in many cases subsumed all or most warframes well past the point where they were getting any XP, and they will be forced into infusing/feeding pointlessly. Newer players going forward can easily hit helminth 15 entirely with subsuming.

In both cases, the extra time and effort and resources required of veterans is only adding tedium and frustration...not fun, and the burden on them is unnecessary. Its the sort of design decision that contributes to players losing interest in a game. The only explanation I've seen is a vague reference to it being the sort of implementation seen in MMOs. Not only is this only sometimes true, but its always a bad strategy. Funneling players en masse towards tedious, retread content only leads to dissatisfaction.

Please reconsider.

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Oh big deal. I have subsumed everything before this update and I actually never sold a frame but, as a long time player and not willing to call myself "veteran" like most 1-2 year players seem to enjoy, I went and built everything I had blueprints for already, and farmed everything I didn't have extra of such as Khora and Grendel, and subsumed them all.

All the while keeping every single frame in the game without selling.

End of the day? Who cares, gave long time players something to do while they/I waited for some new content, in-between playing other video games.

5 more levels? oh well. I can just go slap some abilities on frames for giggles and level it up quickly enough.

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1 minute ago, Alcatraz said:

5 more levels? oh well. I can just go slap some abilities on frames for giggles and level it up quickly enough.

In fact that's only needed if the player wants to rush the leveling, since doing the 3 invigorations per week plus the feeding due those invigorations grants 1 level lol

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry, but like I said in the Helminth feedback threads, and got pounded by for entitled whiners, this is a ridiculous complaint. 

1) Invigorations give you plenty of xp, so you will max out level again before you know it and be bored with nothing to do, so this is literally much ado about nothing. 

2) You are being ludicrously entitled, as are the others who went on my case on that thread. Its just silly.

Name one MMO or videogame at all, where when they add a new level cap, they calculate all the overlap, wasted xp you had from years before, and just gift it to you, thus invalidating any need for you to actually play or level up through the new update they made. 

Its a rhetorical question, because there is NO game that does that, and I'll be waiting for the end of time for you to come up with one. 

This is ridiculous laziness, entitlement, and just illogical nonsense from start to finish. 

Play the game. Just play the game. That's the point of playing a game, especially a grind game. 

Stop expectings things to be freaking handed or spoon fed to you and act like an adult. 

I gave up on that feedback thread, because I was tired of the entitlement, but screw this in general discussion. It's malarkey. And it is indefensible. Play. The. Damn. Game. 

I have plenty of "wasted" xp, and I think the idea of them just giving it to me because they added a new level cap is ludicrous BS, have you never played a game like WoW before? Do you not know how videogames work? 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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I think the complaint was having already subsumed your frames, the penalty was having to sit around grinding it out through pointless activities, such as the abritration copy-paste system or straight up adding the cheapest ability to a frame whatever number of times.

Luckily all the new abilities are completely irrelevant for current content and don't add anything in and of themselves, so you can happily skip it.

Ignoring the stealth nerf to glaives, on top of the announced glaives nerfs, I am actually kind of happy with the update. So far I have no problem ignoring yareli, vent kids, arbitration and helminth. Obviously abitration duration mods too.

Minus the nerfed weapons and the new flavour of the month weapons they notepad into meta now to sell them, you can pretty much just ignore all of it.

Come back in a month or two when the math has been done and the prices have dropped and just plat it out.

Like I do actually use helminth a lot to override neglected abilities or broken frames but I haven't even checked the helminth menu for the new levels or exp or anything.

An armor buff and a status immunity, just as pointless as adding more weapons to the game.

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Depends on what kind of "Vet" you are. This affects me in no meaningful way. I have to go do some stuff to get a segment so I get infusions, and when I feel so inclined boss rush, such an "inconvenience".

If you went and maxed stuff passed the point you got XP, yea you have to farm suff again. But that's not hard for a suboptimal goof like me. If you're like me and didn't rush to do the new shiny thing called Deimos (or actively avoided it b/c forced conservation), you are impacted in no meaningful way.

No, I don't know my total hours played offhand, but Steam says 3.4k hours (i played a while before getting the Steam version). Regardless, I'm too busy being a goof and trying to brute force making Plasma sword and Mire work (as well as other things I didn't grind out as soon as they dropped) to even care about Helminth changes. I think I'm on level.. 3 or 5 with the wallmouth? Not because I can't, but because I'm more interested in making more things splatter bits of armies onto the wall.

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Posted (edited)

I considere myself a veteran.. 6k hours on steam, 3 on my IG stats..  and.. the answer is .. a BIG NO.. with all the ressources i have, i'll be fine for much more than 5 little lvl..

Inject an ability => feed => inject => feed... and there you go.

It's just boring to do but a veteran should have a tons of ressources to do that easily...

I'll just add something : stop cry about stuff being, from YOUR point of view : frustrating, hard, and so on and saying its the same for every other players/veterans/etc..

It's because of all those people crying because they don't get everything instantly when an update comes out that shiet get nerfed to the ground and we, VETERAN, don't have anything "hard" enough to have some fun with our maxed build..

Edited by 1st-1
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6 minutes ago, 1st-1 said:

I considere myself a veteran.. 6k hours on steam, 3 on my IG stats..  and.. the answer is .. a BIG NO.. with all the ressources i have, i'll be fine for much more than 5 little lvl..

Inject an ability => feed => inject => feed... and there you go.

It's just boring to do but a veteran should have a tons of ressources to do that easily...

I'll just add something : stop cry about stuff being, from YOUR point of view : frustrating, hard, and so on and saying its the same for every other players/veterans/etc..

It's because of all those people crying because they don't get everything instantly when an update comes out that shiet get nerfed to the ground and we, VETERAN, don't have anything "hard" enough to have some fun with our maxed build..

It's funny because the most intelligent veterans will complain that updates are too shallow, and don't last long enough, or sustain interest. 

But then we have other so called "vets" in this thread, and in the official feedback threads for Helminth, whinging that everything wasn't handed to them the moment the update landed. 

It's kind of sad. Like people can whine all they want about how they think they should be given that xp because it was "extra" but the whole point of extra level caps in this game, or other MMO's, is to actually give you something to do, while you are playing the game, and a new goal to fight for, and that is what people are missing.

When WoW released new level caps over the years, it didn't matter how dedicated a player you were previously or how much "extra xp" you had earned over the years past the level cap. You still had to grind for those next levels to reach the new cap.

Because even for the whales, a big part of adding new levels and caps is to actually give you something new to do and fight for.

The point of video games is literally to play them.

So why just give people stuff for logging in, because there wasn't any xp for there actions to go to before?

You need them to play the game. Not arguing with you, just expanding on what you said, so there is no misunderstanding. 

It amazes me how people cannot get this basic concept. 

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Yawn. I'm no veteran yet I still have millions of resources to spam subsumes to level. But sure, next time new content comes around let's all cry about how we actually have to go through it.

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il y a 2 minutes, Tesseract7777 a dit :

It's funny because the most intelligent veterans will complain that updates are too shallow, and don't last long enough, or sustain interest. 

But then we have other so called "vets" in this thread, and in the official feedback threads for Helminth, whinging that everything wasn't handed to them the moment the update landed. 

It's kind of sad. Like people can whine all they want about how they think they should be given that xp because it was "extra" but the whole point of extra level caps in this game, or other MMO's, is to actually give you something to do, while you are playing the game, and a new goal to fight for, and that is what people are missing.

When WoW released new level caps over the years, it didn't matter how dedicated a player you were previously or how much "extra xp" you had earned over the years past the level cap. You still had to grind for those next levels to reach the new cap.

Because even for the whales, a big part of adding new levels and caps is to actually give you something new to do and fight for.

The point of video games is literally to play them.

So why just give people stuff for logging in, because there wasn't any xp for there actions to go to before?

You need them to play the game. Not arguing with you, just expanding on what you said, so there is no misunderstanding. 

It amazes me how people cannot get this basic concept. 

i agree that new things is to give you something to do, even tho', this update don't bring only 5 helminth level ^^

But for your WoW exemple, this is a reason why i don't like that sometimes.. because all you did for month/years just get nullified (except the gold you farmed..), of course the point of a game is to have fun, but when you spend a lot of times playing a game, farmed tons of stuff, i like when it is still taken into account by the devs and still have an use, just like helminth in warframe in fact, our ressources, as veteran, was completly useless (except for dojo's.. for those who like it) and giving us a way to use them was a good idea, for me, at least.


But i think we digress from the subject of the post :P

(sorry for typos, french noob here :P)

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Oh no all of those precious resources I'm physically incapable of using anymore. What ever will I do without them??

 

In all seriousness though I get that the principal of the issue is that players "wasted" the xp by doing it early (having sold them for credits pre Helminth is a non-issue). But one doesn't even need to consider themselves a veteran to have lost all uses for basic resources. Needing to sink resources you literally can't use any other way isn't that big of a deal.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, trst said:

Oh no all of those precious resources I'm physically incapable of using anymore. What ever will I do without them??

 

In all seriousness though I get that the principal of the issue is that players "wasted" the xp by doing it early (having sold them for credits pre Helminth is a non-issue). But one doesn't even need to consider themselves a veteran to have lost all uses for basic resources. Needing to sink resources you literally can't use any other way isn't that big of a deal.

See, I think as a vet from all the way back in early 2015, this is why it is so hard for me to be all the bothered by this. 

I am from the era where when Helminth came out, I had to shrug my shoulders, and just accept that all those vanilla warframes I sold for credits for space so I could use their prime counterpart in that slot, were not going to come back, and I was going to have to farm them all over for the Helminth.

And I just accepted it and let that go. Most of them I had sold literal years ago, and I had taken advantage of it by using my limited slot space for my new warframes, etc. etc. 

I just let it go, accepted it as the natural way of progression in grind games, and moved on. It is just never something I thought about much. I think it may actually bother newer "vets" more, whereas those who may not even be as well equipped, but are vets from sheer length of play and how early in WF's history they have been around, just think of this is how things are, and have a hard time understanding why anyone would be up in arms about this. 

This is just another drop in the bucket.

Heck, just looking at the new grind for the corpus liches was a little shocking as I am really busy with life or chores right now, but there is nothing weird about it. The whole point of the game is to get you to keep playing it, or if you work a lot but don't have much time to play, to spend some money to boost yourself, to have more fun playing when you do. It's the nature of the beast, and we will always find the most enjoyment if we accept it for what it is. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

If only veterans weren't drowning on resources, wich is why they are called veterans...

I am MR29. While I do have more resources of some types than I will likely ever need (nano spores, I'm looking at you), others I still have barely enough of. I was Orokin Cell farming last week. Furthermore, Helminth is very punishing even to a fairly big resource excess if you choose to force it. I thought I had so many nav coordinates, but those have been more than half used already because bile is such a pain.

1 hour ago, Alcatraz said:

5 more levels? oh well. I can just go slap some abilities on frames for giggles and level it up quickly enough.

Not really accurate. An infuse+feed is about 2k XP...or about 3% of the level 10-15 grind. And again, force feeding is very punishing.

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said in the Helminth feedback threads, and got pounded by for entitled whiners, this is a ridiculous complaint. 1) Invigorations give you plenty of xp, so you will max out level again before you know it and be bored with nothing to do, so this is literally much ado about nothing. 2) You are being ludicrously entitled, as are the others who went on my case on that thread. Its just silly.Name one MMO or videogame at all, where when they add a new level cap, they calculate all the overlap, wasted xp you had from years before, and just gift it to you, thus invalidating any need for you to actually play or level up through the new update they made. Its a rhetorical question, because there is NO game that does that, and I'll be waiting for the end of time for you to come up with one. This is ridiculous laziness, entitlement, and just illogical nonsense from start to finish. Play the game. Just play the game. That's the point of playing a game, especially a grind game. Stop expectings things to be freaking handed or spoon fed to you and act like an adult. I gave up on that feedback thread, because I was tired of the entitlement, but screw this in general discussion. It's malarkey. And it is indefensible. Play. The. Damn. Game. I have plenty of "wasted" xp, and I think the idea of them just giving it to me because they added a new level cap is ludicrous BS, have you never played a game like WoW before? Do you not know how videogames work? 

First of all, I do not appreciate the intentionally inflammatory nature of this post. No surprise. Nearly any time someone uses the term "entitled" you can usually expect flamebait to follow. Its not even an accurate usage of the word. Entitled is expecting something for nothing. If I was in line to buy a burger, and I paid $2 for that burger and the next person in line got the same burger for $1 I'd be upset...and not because I was entitled but because its unreasonable.

Not only do retroactive compensations happen in games, they have happened in this game...several times...including recently. They changed railjack. Everyone who was invested in the old system got a pile of materials to get them approximately back to where they were. They balanced melee this week. Everyone who was invested into that system got a few things to soften the blow and account for the losses.

I'm not lazy. I'm not entitled. But I have (unintentionally) made the level 15 grind much slower and more tedious for myself by not "knowing" this was going to happen and saving all those base warframes to subsume now and not over the last few months. I've already done the work. I just want to get credit for it.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, PhreazerBurn said:

. I've already done the work. I just want to get credit for it.

No you haven't. 

You knew that xp was not going anywhere but the trash, and you did those actions anyways.

You got the full benefit of the system for almost a year now.

You are ignoring my point and my post.

Name a game that gives you retroactive xp for a new level cap with an expansion they added.

I'm willing to wait until I'm old and gray because I know for a FACT you cannot come up with ONE.

And you are one to talk about inflammatory when your entire OP is inflammatory, pointless garbage, when you could have finished leveling to 15 probably if you are MR29 in the time you are posting asking for a new updates content to be given to you with no effort or grind involved at all. 

Again, you are ignoring my point.

Video games are meant to be PLAYED,

Not giiving vets new content for free because they had a bunch of overlap xp when there were no levels for it to go to is not a slap in the face, or disrespect to the players. It is making sure you have something to do..

Because video games are about playing them. If you are MR29, at the risk of repeating myself, you should have already been able to use your glut of resources to max back to 15 with invigs in the time it took you to whine in this thread. 

This is a non-issue. 

There are real issues in WF the devs dearly need to address. This is NOT one of them.

 

 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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2 hours ago, PhreazerBurn said:

The first round of pain for veterans was needing to rebuild all the warframes we sold through the years for a few measly credits. New players got to send their non-prime straight to Mr. Helpful Cancer with no wasted time or effort.

Now there's the new 5 levels to helminth. Again, veterans have in many cases subsumed all or most warframes well past the point where they were getting any XP, and they will be forced into infusing/feeding pointlessly. Newer players going forward can easily hit helminth 15 entirely with subsuming.

In both cases, the extra time and effort and resources required of veterans is only adding tedium and frustration...not fun, and the burden on them is unnecessary. Its the sort of design decision that contributes to players losing interest in a game. The only explanation I've seen is a vague reference to it being the sort of implementation seen in MMOs. Not only is this only sometimes true, but its always a bad strategy. Funneling players en masse towards tedious, retread content only leads to dissatisfaction.

Please reconsider.

That'll teach you neat freaks gotta sell everything player, I keep at least one or two of everything for future surprises, I only needed a couple of the newer frames for Subsume. I must be a forward thinker or a prepper or just a hoarder take ya pick. lol 

 

1 hour ago, Alcatraz said:

Oh big deal. I have subsumed everything before this update and I actually never sold a frame but, as a long time player and not willing to call myself "veteran" like most 1-2 year players seem to enjoy, I went and built everything I had blueprints for already, and farmed everything I didn't have extra of such as Khora and Grendel, and subsumed them all.

All the while keeping every single frame in the game without selling.

End of the day? Who cares, gave long time players something to do while they/I waited for some new content, in-between playing other video games.

5 more levels? oh well. I can just go slap some abilities on frames for giggles and level it up quickly enough.

Same, no drama here either. 

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2 hours ago, PhreazerBurn said:

The first round of pain for veterans was needing to rebuild all the warframes we sold through the years for a few measly credits. New players got to send their non-prime straight to Mr. Helpful Cancer with no wasted time or effort.

Now there's the new 5 levels to helminth. Again, veterans have in many cases subsumed all or most warframes well past the point where they were getting any XP, and they will be forced into infusing/feeding pointlessly. Newer players going forward can easily hit helminth 15 entirely with subsuming.

In both cases, the extra time and effort and resources required of veterans is only adding tedium and frustration...not fun, and the burden on them is unnecessary. Its the sort of design decision that contributes to players losing interest in a game. The only explanation I've seen is a vague reference to it being the sort of implementation seen in MMOs. Not only is this only sometimes true, but its always a bad strategy. Funneling players en masse towards tedious, retread content only leads to dissatisfaction.

Please reconsider.

I think OP has a point. 

 

"Oh hey. Go grind the thing you thought you would never need again". 

 

"Unless you want to pay up lol"

 

Its short sighted at best. Lazy game design and money grubbiness at worst.

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It isn't most important thing in the world, but sthing that disgruntles me.

They clearly do track information based on Helminth, giving us some exp based on Subsumed Warframe numbers would been a nice token.

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Nope, not bothered by this at all.

It just reinvigorates me (no pun intended) to subsume some different abilities on some lesser used frames. Who knows, I might find a new favorite frame. And my invigorations this week are for Loki, Zephyr and Mirage.

I used to play Loki a fair bit, so this might convince me to play a couple of missions using him. Haven't subsumed anything on him either (other than auto-hack), so might try something new there. Zephyr, I recently bought the deluxe, so I probably owe it to play her a little bit. Mirage, I'm hoping to have a lot of fun with her invigoration, I think it's 200% weapon damage or something. 

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5 hours ago, PhreazerBurn said:

I am MR29. While I do have more resources of some types than I will likely ever need (nano spores, I'm looking at you), others I still have barely enough of. I was Orokin Cell farming last week. Furthermore, Helminth is very punishing even to a fairly big resource excess if you choose to force it. I thought I had so many nav coordinates, but those have been more than half used already because bile is such a pain.

First of all, having high MR doesn't mean anything, as you can see. I'm MR 27 snd have literal millions of nanospores and hundreds of Orokin Cells, I can't remember the last time where I farmed those resources  in fact. I also had full helminth prior to this update, right now just missing Yareli to subsume. Spamming Hydron or ESO (wich would explain why you don'thave nanospores, the most common resource in the entire game) doesn't make you a vet. 

For true vets that actually play (or played) the game instead powerleveling, this isn't an issue at all... So good luck "grinding" helminth. 

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Personally never had an issue with resources for helminth, especially after they adjusted the initial amounts. A veteran shouldn't really have a problem with helminth because they have lots of resources or if you for some reason don't (like investing millions of resources into a dojo like myself) can still easily earn them.

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