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Helminth once again frustrates veterans.


PhreazerBurn

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DE'S reasoning is the biggest issue. "Other MMOs do it so why shouldn't we" THAT kind of reasoning should concern EVERYONE. The fact that they're ok with using OTHER games as an excuse to not give the players the benefit of the doubt. When given the chance to be different, DE knowingly and consciously chose to follow the horrible status quo of other games. 

When I, as a dev, am given the opportunity to side with the players and be better than other games like mine, I too opt not to. (That is sarcasm) No movement for better standards started with citing the status quo as reason to continue the status quo. 

Thai update was full of ridiculous reasoning for lich changes, smeeta nerf, Deconstructor nerf, etc. NONE of those reasonings made sense. Of course... it's not hard to guess what the real reasonings for each one was. 

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are we talking about helminth subsume costs in general or the last 5 helminth abilities been introduced ? if its the ladder then yea all 5 of them pretty much useless(sorry) except maaaaybe the healing effect one (cant be bothered to remember that) but then again even in sp we rarely need to heal so .. meh just , they could make sense if they were in lets say in first levels of helminth abilities but they arent . 

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On 2021-07-08 at 5:40 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Name one MMO or videogame at all, where when they add a new level cap, they calculate all the overlap, wasted xp you had from years before

Warframe's Affinity/XP doesn't work like other MMO's XP systems. All sources of affinity are one-time only - that's why you get to keep any affinity over your current mastery rank after you rank up.

Similarly, Subsuming a Warframe can only be done once per account. You cannot build more fodder Oberons or Nyxes to subsume again - once subsumed, that opportunity is gone forever, and the fact that DE decided that it's OK not to count that retroactively is, for a lack of better term, dumb. 

Yes, we can afford to Invigorate for that missing exp, but being able to afford and being willing to waste because of a bad design decision are vastly different things. 

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I really couldn't care. I'll get access to those new abilities eventually. The ones that are complaining are no doubt the same idiots that do all the new stuff in one day and then complain they have nothing left to do.

They need to learn some patience and pace themselves. This is a marathon, not a sprint. 

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1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

Warframe's Affinity/XP doesn't work like other MMO's XP systems. All sources of affinity are one-time only - that's why you get to keep any affinity over your current mastery rank after you rank up.

Similarly, Subsuming a Warframe can only be done once per account. You cannot build more fodder Oberons or Nyxes to subsume again - once subsumed, that opportunity is gone forever, and the fact that DE decided that it's OK not to count that retroactively is, for a lack of better term, dumb. 

Yes, we can afford to Invigorate for that missing exp, but being able to afford and being willing to waste because of a bad design decision are vastly different things. 

People offered to buy the 1st helmith for plat immediately instead of waiting a few days to rank up and buy it with standing. It's not any different here. 

Just because someone thinks content is owed to them on the first day doesn't mean it's the right answer.

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Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

People offered to buy the 1st helmith for plat immediately instead of waiting a few days to rank up and buy it with standing.

I fail to see how this is even related.

I'm not disappointed by the fact that I have to wait.

I'm disappointed by the fact that one-time, no-refund opportunities got wasted. Reading comprehension, eh?

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9 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

I fail to see how this is even related.

I'm not disappointed by the fact that I have to wait.

I'm disappointed by the fact that one-time, no-refund opportunities got wasted. Reading comprehension, eh?

It wasn't wasted. You and other players spam content no matter what.

You weren't gonna hold off and not spam content for 6 months if you knew invigorations were coming later. You wanted access to new helminth builds immediately when they released, so you did what you wanted to have that access.

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I am not upset about this, at least it gives you something to do for a while.
Upgrade your 3 frames per week and you'll be 15 in a few weeks - or month.
There is no need to rush, the benefits are not worth it anyway.

-c0y

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On 2021-07-09 at 11:38 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You wanted access to new helminth builds immediately when they released, so you did what you wanted to have that access.

And now you're claiming to know what I want better than myself. 

Had I known DE would go back on their "one-time opportunities are retroactive" principle I'd have kept the trash subsumes indefinitely. I have never infused (and probably never will) Ice Wave, Tempest Barrage, Desiccation, Terrify, Resonator, Well of Life, Tesla Nervos and a bunch of other mediocre abilities. I made a beeline to some abilities I wanted to try, maxed my Helminth and kept subsuming just for the Hek of it because I'm a completionist. 

TL;DR: Yes, long time players have a truckload of everything. I know I do, I've been here since early 2014 or so. But no, we don't like to waste stuff pointlessly - and not accounting for subsumes retroactively is a waste. 

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42 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

I have never infused (and probably never will) Ice Wave, Tempest Barrage, Desiccation, Terrify, Resonator, Well of Life, Tesla Nervos and a bunch of other mediocre abilities. I made a beeline to some abilities I wanted to try, maxed my Helminth and kept subsuming just for the Hek of it because I'm a completionist. 

So I don't have much to say on the helminth stuff, they should have warned people if they had more abilities planned and that subsuming extra frames would not transfer extra xp. But anyways

What I have to say is to completionists and this game, and I'm not excusing this, just saying.

Most game developers do not give a S#&$ about people 100%ing their game. Especially nowadays. Most cases you get a gold star and maybe a "yippee for you!" message from the developers. In Nintendo's case they literally gave players a golden turd for finding 900 korok seeds.

DE is not any different. Expect nothing or worse in a live service game when it comes to this. And even then, DE is pretty generous about compensating players for past grinds considering they literally don't have to give us anything. But again, 100% things in this game at your own peril, chances are you will not be compensated, or in this case, you will be left in the dust.

And again, not excusing this.

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7 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Damn... I was expecting a bunch of "Yeah it's true, DE don't care about their players" and that kind of nonsense...

But no, been seeing a lot of sensible answers so far... is there hope for this forum after all ?

I have given up on arguing on this, because I think it is so absurd it doesn't even merit argument, but I too have been heartened by how many people seem to agree this is silly. 

I won't address people who @' me arguing they should be given free stuff. 

I make statements, and then ignore their counter-pleas to the contrary. 

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7 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Damn... I was expecting a bunch of "Yeah it's true, DE don't care about their players" and that kind of nonsense...

But no, been seeing a lot of sensible answers so far... is there hope for this forum after all ?

No.

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Admittedly, if it had occurred to me that Helminth would get more levels in future updates, I would have held a few frames in reserve instead of feeding them all back-to-back. Now I feel a little stupid for being so impulsive.

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Just now, Keybones said:

Admittedly, if it had occurred to me that Helminth would get more levels in future updates, I would have held a few frames in reserve instead of feeding them all back-to-back. Now I feel a little stupid for being so impulsive.

And I felt a little silly for being impulsive all those years and throwing vanilla warframes away for space I easily could have traded plat for, because I never imagined I would need them later.

Que Sera Sera. 

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Speaking as a "veteran" who went ahead and did the grind for a copy of every single Warframe to add to Helminth... it would be nice if they had chosen to reimburse that time, but I never seriously thought they would.  On the other hand, the natural Heminth powers are (to me) mostly pretty useless anyway, so I personally have no real incentive to grind out more levels.  The only one that kind of interests me is Golden Instinct, so I can finally get the last of the Kurias and get my Grineer Kitty statue.  But since I've *not* done that yet, it really doesn't bother me to continue to not do that for however many months it takes to get to Rank 15 via sometimes remembering to swap out powers on a Warframe or to spend the resources on an Infusion.

I do understand some people are upset.  I just personally can't seem to find a reason to care.

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2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

And I felt a little silly for being impulsive all those years and throwing vanilla warframes away for space I easily could have traded plat for, because I never imagined I would need them later.

Que Sera Sera. 

And I made a 3rd Ember, Vauban and Rhino for Helminth and then yesterday I just up and sold them because I literally dont use them, if my crystal ball hasnt cracked, I would know to just use them back then.

Seriously, it was just a "Oh well, whatever." moment.

Ah, I also sold a LOT of Prime things for Credits a few weeks before Baro.

Also sold my Arcane Helmets BPs for credits when they were retired.

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7 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

And I felt a little silly for being impulsive all those years and throwing vanilla warframes away for space I easily could have traded plat for, because I never imagined I would need them later.

Que Sera Sera. 

I didn't throw out Warframes.  But I ended up having to grind for an additional copy anyway - I wasn't going to feed them to Helminth for the same reason I wouldn't throw them out.  I get stupidly and pointlessly attached to things in games.  I'd spent forma and Orokin whatevers on them, bought Tennogen to set up alternate costumes, whatever.

I do the same thing in games like Ark:  Survival Evolved.  I have a "library" of hundreds of tamed creatures stored in cryo-pods.  Creatures that I tamed because they had nice colors, or to hopefully use for breeding but then turned out to not have any useful stats.  Dozens and dozens of "failed" offspring from said breeding, where they didn't win the genetic coinflip and actually *get* any decent stats from the parents.  I hate killing them, even though they're just NPCs and no more "alive" than the Grineer I mow down by the hundreds.  Because I get stupidly attached to things.  My plan is to let them keep getting passive XP while in stasis, and then give them a chance to earn a place in Valhalla/Stovokhor when I finally fight the King Titan.  It's an outdoor, open world mega-boss fight with no hard limit on how many creatures you can bring.  So... I'll bring all of them.

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I think the bottom line is this: People who subsumed their base frames did it for the abilities. That was the reward. Everyone talking about "being cheated" or "DE should reward back xp" are full of crap. There's no argument to justify wanting another reward after getting a reward. So what, you're now going to hold off on gaining new subsumed abilities because DE might do this again in another year? 

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On 2021-07-08 at 5:36 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

As a veteran, I am not frustrated by this. I'll get this stuff passively while I unlock all the other new stuff. It's really not a big deal.

Same here, if my 2,6k hours of mission time can be counted as veteran level lol. Got resources and time to do this without rushing it, so why rush it?

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I can comfortably afford to rush it but I just don't care enough. And I also don't consider it a big enough inconvenience to care about being snubbed slightly either. It's the same as everything else in this game, you either rush new content amd enjoy the benefits(and in my case exploits) or you get it at a relaxed pace and don't get to have fun with the many bugs that are always present.

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On 2021-07-08 at 7:58 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Keep in mind that you also received the rewards for that xp already. You're asking for a triple handout: Returned xp from rewarded subsumed ability, ranking and now current rewards. That's a very selfish ask. Earn it again, THERE IS NO RUSH!

ok, fair point - we did get the interchangeable skills to use... BUT... if i had known that DE was planning on extending the helminth system from the start, i sure as hell serves no cold beer would have 'only' feed him those frames i wanted the abilities from for my builds. as it stands, i feed him all frames even those i likely never use the abilities from - and i did even rebuild the majority of those frames for it.

so, to call that a triple handout isn't quite fair in this regard. at the very least, DE should allow us to re-feed frames again to some degree to counter this. this isn't a selfish request at all but common sense since we never were told right after the release of the helminth system what DE was planning for it (IF they even knew then themself). as a comparisson, take the focus system: when they finally came around to change it, they refounded spend focus for players to redistribute... sure, that might be a bit more difficult to do with helminth but not impossible. and yes, there is no rush and the new skilly are not really up my alley anyway but this a matter of principles and nothing else.

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I saw this thread and didn't get what it was about but then I played the game and I was like "oh"

Yeah how am I supposed to level up my helminth. I already fed like 15 frames and I don't want to waste time building frames I alread fed to the dude. 

Another questionable design decision from DE.

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