Helminth once again frustrates veterans.

[_Anise_]

I still don't have a second none-prime titania the first one I sold to make room to upgrade to her prime and oof I just can't be bothered to go through that day night cycle gated grind again, i think a lot of frames have some kind of horrible punishing grind mechanic that a lot of people that did it once already might just not go back to specially if the subsume isn't a great one

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, _Anise_ said:

I still don't have a second none-prime titania the first one I sold to make room to upgrade to her prime and oof I just can't be bothered to go through that day night cycle gated grind again, i think a lot of frames have some kind of horrible punishing grind mechanic that a lot of people that did it once already might just not go back to specially if the subsume isn't a great one

You don't have to go through all that. You can do Simaris scans and buy the blueprints from him. The problem here is that your standing has daily caps (for no good reason), so it's going to take you awhile, depending on your MR.

[_Anise_]

I didn't realize that ! thanks though I did have to waste 75 nightwave credits on buying another vauban, basically cost me a the price of reactor for +5000 cred

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

It does nothing for the people who played before Helminth existed. That's the point people keep missing here. It was a slap in the face to veterans. A few players are calling it out for the obvious issue. Others here just say, "Hit me harder, DadDE!"

Did they say the helminth was in works 6 years ago or something? I think we all got the news at the same time. 

Were they supposed to secretly leak it to the vets to make you guys feel special or something? Who knows when they even decided to follow through with it.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Did they say the helminth was in works 6 years ago or something? I think we all got the news at the same time. 

Were they supposed to secretly leak it to the vets to make you guys feel special or something? Who knows when they even decided to follow through with it.

Missing the point to make a troll post again? You really need to break that habit, man. I've seen you make valid points in other posts, so why stoop to that?

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Did they say the helminth was in works 6 years ago or something? I think we all got the news at the same time. 

Were they supposed to secretly leak it to the vets to make you guys feel special or something? Who knows when they even decided to follow through with it.

I am so tired of this "its a slap in the face to vets garbage". It is just not true. 

If it is true, it is a slap in the face every time WoW releases an expansion, and doesn't just gift players new levels for their toons. After all, they wasted a ton of time and effort gaining xp they could never use, right? 

If it is true, it was also a slap in the face that all us vets had to remake all the vanillas most of us sold for space for the primes years ago, except that isn't a slap in the face either, because we got the benefit of using those warframe slots for years, just like those who subsumed everything early got the full benefits of the system for at least a good six months before the new system came out. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Missing the point to make a troll post again? You really need to break that habit, man. I've seen you make valid points in other posts, so why stoop to that?

Then answer the question? What was DE supposed to do...? 

[FrostDragoon]

46 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I am so tired of this "its a slap in the face to vets garbage". It is just not true. 

If it is true, it is a slap in the face every time WoW releases an expansion, and doesn't just gift players new levels for their toons. After all, they wasted a ton of time and effort gaining xp they could never use, right? 

If it is true, it was also a slap in the face that all us vets had to remake all the vanillas most of us sold for space for the primes years ago, except that isn't a slap in the face either, because we got the benefit of using those warframe slots for years, just like those who subsumed everything early got the full benefits of the system for at least a good six months before the new system came out. 

This is a false equivalence and you know it. And if you don't, you should.

31 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then answer the question? What was DE supposed to do...? 

I already did in an earlier post.

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

This is a false equivalence and you know it. And if you don't, you should..

It is not a false equivalence. 

If you are going to say that, please, explain to me what makes it a false equivalence. I have had a few people so far tell me my comparison is not valid. No one has tried to explain why. So go ahead. I've got time. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

32 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

It is not a false equivalence. 

If you are going to say that, please, explain to me what makes it a false equivalence. I have had a few people so far tell me my comparison is not valid. No one has tried to explain why. So go ahead. I've got time. 

It's false equivalence because, as far as I know, leveling up in WoW doesn't have one of its primary means be a non-repeatable action that is wasted if done at cap.
XP gotten from killing your random mook is wasted at the cap, but you can just go and kill it again when it respawns. Once you've subsumed a warframe, there's no way to subsume it again.

[Tesseract7777]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It's false equivalence because, as far as I know, leveling up in WoW doesn't have one of its primary means be a non-repeatable action that is wasted if done at cap.
XP gotten from killing your random mook is wasted at the cap, but you can just go and kill it again when it respawns. Once you've subsumed a warframe, there's no way to subsume it again.

I understand why you feel the way you do, but I personally see it differently. My way of viewing it is, either way, we are talking about actions where most people would do them anyways even if they knew what was coming, because they want to use the Helminth abilities. It's not an infinitely repeatable action, but anyone who wants the full benefits of the system has to use it. 

I would understand why people were upset, if invigorations didn't exist, and didn't give a lot of xp, but they do. And it's not like if someone knew it was coming and saved a bunch of frames to subsume, if DE had warned them in advance or something, that you would still be able to skip to the head of the line. Because you have to wait like 24 hours between subsuming each frame. You still have to take your time leveling, because they want you to play the new content. 

I understand why some of you are calling it a false equivalence now, but IMO it will always be a relevant comparison, because it is not so much about whether they are similar games, or whether the situation is exact, to me the comparison is more about the fact that both games release an update, and the whole point of the update is to play it. However "unfair" it seems, just giving veterans xp for something that is a new system is counterproductive to running a videogame and keep it going long term. Perhaps it could have been handled better so some Tenno didn't feel raw, but I don't see how anything good would be gained by gifting people xp and letting them completely bypass an entire new five levels of a xp based system. 

TL;DR, I get why some people feel raw, maybe it could have been handled better by introducing it in a better way, but I don't see anything good coming from just giving veterans five levels of a new system for free -- it's not good for keeping people playing and working towards new goals. They spent all this development time and money on an update, it would be a mistake, imo, to give people stuff in that manner. Should they learn a lesson about how they introduce new content? Yeah... but I don't see any good coming from doing what people are suggesting here. 

[FrostDragoon]

12 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I would understand why people were upset, if invigorations didn't exist, and didn't give a lot of xp, but they do. And it's not like if someone knew it was coming and saved a bunch of frames to subsume, if DE had warned them in advance or something, that you would still be able to skip to the head of the line. Because you have to wait like 24 hours between subsuming each frame. You still have to take your time leveling, because they want you to play the new content. 

The difference is that we already farmed and leveled the frames and didn't have a proper timeline of if/when we might have a use for the non-Prime variants. A vague promise half a decade ago isn't enough to go on, especially with no details on what we should be doing with them in the meantime. To use your WoW analogy, it would be like them deleting your alts when a new expansion came out and telling you, "Hey, remake and relevel them again because reasons." Also, neither of these analogies are perfect, so let's agree to just understand each other's points and not get bogged down in the irrelevant details of those imperfections. They don't change the argument for either of us.

15 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I understand why some of you are calling it a false equivalence now, but IMO it will always be a relevant comparison, because it is not so much about whether they are similar games, or whether the situation is exact, to me the comparison is more about the fact that both games release an update, and the whole point of the update is to play it. However "unfair" it seems, just giving veterans xp for something that is a new system is counterproductive to running a videogame and keep it going long term. Perhaps it could have been handled better so some Tenno didn't feel raw, but I don't see how anything good would be gained by gifting people xp and letting them completely bypass an entire new five levels of a xp based system. 

If you read my post, I actually said that I didn't care about the exp. I just wanted the abilities pre-subsumed since I'd already farmed/sold those frames a long time ago. I don't care if it means it takes me longer to level the helminth, because it will do that naturally simply by virtue of using it. The thorn in my side is having to regrind those frames again with no compensation of any kind and the disrespect to both my time as a player and my support of the game. Again, all they had to do was run a script that compared players' mastered non-Prime frames to their inventory and see which ones were missing from the inventory. From there they can just have those pre-subsumed or give an option not to (for those that do care about the exp and would grind them again). Either way would be fine.

This whole issue comes from their new structures directly conflicting with their old incentives. When we say it's a slap in the face, it's because it is.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2021-07-28 at 5:28 PM, FrostDragoon said:

 

Quote

The thorn in my side is having to regrind those frames again with no compensation of any kind

 

But see, that's just not true at all.  You farmed the frames the FIRST time because you wanted to have/play the frames... and you DID.  So you got what you farmed for.

This time, you're farming the frames again to SUBSUME ABILITIES, which you WILL get when you subsume them.  THAT is the "compensation" for farming them again... You GET what you're working FOR.

How are you not getting this?

I've been playing this game for YEARS, and I don't feel slighted in the least.  And I DID delete many of my quest base frames to make room for their primes BEFORE Helminth was a thing.  It's fine. It's just something else I now have to work for in game...  That's not a BAD thing, that's a new goal to work towards.

Why do you expect them to just hand it to you?  It's not like DE knew Helminth would be a thing 5-6 years ago.  It's not like they just kept it a secret to "screw you over".  You are not the center of the universe.  This isn't about YOU.  This isn't about "VeTs", either.  This is about the devs creating and introducing more content into the game over 8+ YEARS to keep improving it for EVERYBODY.  

ALL of us have to farm a frame to subsume it.  No one is "left out" here.  Stop playing a victim card at devs of a game they give you at ZERO cost.  Really, it's getting FREE coffee and being mad they didn't give you a FREE MEAL when the new menu item came out, too!  

I mean, on that concept..  If I go to a buffet... and eat my fill .. am I entitled to a FREE MEAL there every time some NEW item is introduced?  "BuT i dIdNt kNOw ThERe wOUlD BE A NEW ItEm!  I should be reimbursed for my meals, or given a FREE meal to have that new item!  I can't "unspend" the money I spent on my other visits! ITS NOT FAIRRRRR!"

See how juvenile that sounds?  New things are added to this game ALL the time.  None of us are "owed" a damned thing.  It's FREE content. If you want the ability bad enough, go earn it like the rest of us are doing without issue.

[FrostDragoon]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

But see, that's just not true at all.  You farmed the frames the FIRST time because you wanted to have/play the frames... and you DID.  So you got what you farmed for.

This time, you're farming the frames again to SUBSUME ABILITIES, which you WILL get when you subsume them.  THAT is the "compensation" for farming them again... You GET what you're working FOR.

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point to be obtuse or if it's sincere. The difference is that we didn't have the option to subsume them back then and newer players do. They get to use them until they get the primed variant and then subsume them without having to refarm them. If you're going to choose to just not see why that irks people, that's on you. The rest of the world understands why it bothers people.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

3 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point to be obtuse or if it's sincere. The difference is that we didn't have the option to subsume them back then and newer players do. They get to use them until they get the primed variant and then subsume them without having to refarm them. If you're going to choose to just not see why that irks people, that's on you. The rest of the world understands why it bothers people.

...and in CONTRAST, "we" got to play with those frames for YEARS longer than "newer" players, we also had YEARS to gather RESOURCES by the THOUSANDS/MILLIONS, and so for "us", "we" can re-farm and subsume MUCH EASIER, relative to "newer" players.

If you're going to choose not to see why this is a non-issue, and how you're just being entitled about this whole nonsense, then "that's on you".

Clearly, based on even just on the responses here in this forum, "the rest of the world" does not agree with you.  Don't pull that bs.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...and in CONTRAST, "we" got to play with those frames for YEARS longer than "newer" players, we also had YEARS to gather RESOURCES by the THOUSANDS/MILLIONS, and so for "us", "we" can re-farm and subsume MUCH EASIER, relative to "newer" players.

If you're going to choose not to see why this is a non-issue, and how you're just being entitled about this whole nonsense, then "that's on you".

Clearly, based on even just on the responses here in this forum, "the rest of the world" does not agree with you.  Don't pull that bs.

So you refuse to understand. Fine. No reason to take you seriously then.

[Venyxos]

Honestly, what doesn't frustrate Warframe Veterans?

I simply refused to sell any of my things for measly credits and bought slots w/ plat - now I got this pool of stuff I still don't know what to do with, lol (Helminth SHOULD be a really cool/fun garbage disposal/recycler and it just doesn't feel quite "on" yet)

[FrostDragoon]

20 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Honestly, what doesn't frustrate Warframe Veterans?

This is simply dishonest. Requiring veterans to farm extra compared to newer players was a terrible design decision. They are effectively punished for having played longer by requiring them to play longer, doing stuff they already did. It would be different if it was to engage new content, but that's not the case.

[Slayer-.]

Wow this thread still going, though it would have circled the drain and be gone by now.

I just did the Invigorations and maxed out to top rank, no problem. 

[Miser_able]

On 2021-07-07 at 7:14 PM, PhreazerBurn said:

 

Now there's the new 5 levels to helminth. Again, veterans have in many cases subsumed all or most warframes well past the point where they were getting any XP, and they will be forced into infusing/feeding pointlessly. Newer players going forward can easily hit helminth 15 entirely with subsuming.

you do know you gain helminth XP when you use the new invigorations right? ive only been using those and my helminth is 1 rank from max.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is simply dishonest. Requiring veterans to farm extra compared to newer players was a terrible design decision. They are effectively punished for having played longer by requiring them to play longer, doing stuff they already did. It would be different if it was to engage new content, but that's not the case.

What a load of garbage. It took me all of about 5 hours to get most of the frames again plus a few more from Simaris and we had 2 week's warning to do it. By subsuming them back then I got to enjoy the Helminth system long before new players could. And they probably still can't cos they don't have the stockpiles of resources I have. "Effectively punished" lol, even back originally when it was released people could rush the subsumes for a big resource cost, knowing full well that they could get them much cheaper a week later if they took their time.

[Slayer-.]

8 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What a load of garbage. It took me all of about 5 hours to get most of the frames again plus a few more from Simaris and we had 2 week's warning to do it. By subsuming them back then I got to enjoy the Helminth system long before new players could. And they probably still can't cos they don't have the stockpiles of resources I have. "Effectively punished" lol, even back originally when it was released people could rush the subsumes for a big resource cost, knowing full well that they could get them much cheaper a week later if they took their time.

Same I only needed to get about 3 or 4 frames, I'd had that many parts left over in the foundry from when I farmed them originally and helping out new players and mates, I had them all built ready to go by the time Helminth dropped, oh I feel so hard done by.

I guess the ones hard done by are the neat freaks who delete everything they've built because it looked messy. 

I've always told the clan mates keep one of everything you have built and it might be useful one day, they never listen. 🤣

[Tesseract7777]

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What a load of garbage. It took me all of about 5 hours to get most of the frames again plus a few more from Simaris and we had 2 week's warning to do it. By subsuming them back then I got to enjoy the Helminth system long before new players could. And they probably still can't cos they don't have the stockpiles of resources I have. "Effectively punished" lol, even back originally when it was released people could rush the subsumes for a big resource cost, knowing full well that they could get them much cheaper a week later if they took their time.

I had a housemate recently who instead of just accepting it and using white noise when nearby apartments were being loud, would instead put holes in the wall with his fist, and scream and shout futilely as if they would hear him or care. I swear he was getting a rush from it. I think some people are actually addicted to finding something pointless to whinge about. 

[FrostDragoon]

33 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What a load of garbage. It took me all of about 5 hours to get most of the frames again plus a few more from Simaris and we had 2 week's warning to do it. By subsuming them back then I got to enjoy the Helminth system long before new players could. And they probably still can't cos they don't have the stockpiles of resources I have. "Effectively punished" lol, even back originally when it was released people could rush the subsumes for a big resource cost, knowing full well that they could get them much cheaper a week later if they took their time.

What a load of garbage. The "two weeks warning" doesn't matter because those old frames were already long gone. Some of those farms are a PITA I didn't want to have to repeat and wouldn't have to if they hadn't gone about this all wrong. New players won't have to. I don't know why people are being so dumb about this. The concept isn't hard to grasp. Cool you don't value some of the resources it takes (especially Nitain, which I could be spending those creds on more potatoes instead of this crap), but I don't appreciate being taxed extra for being among those players who helped the game be successful enough to get this far. It's not even asking for special treatment. It's just asking to not be penalized.

[FrostDragoon]

27 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

I guess the ones hard done by are the neat freaks who delete everything they've built because it looked messy.

I've always told the clan mates keep one of everything you have built and it might be useful one day, they never listen.

No indication was actually given as to what they might be used for or when and they occupied slots you needed for newer gear. What a crap take.