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NOW can we get rid of the Mercy Kill camera lock?


Steel_Rook
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When performing a Mercy Kill, the game takes control of the player's camera and forces it into a "cinematic angle." In my experience, this has a high chance of clipping into terrain or being obstructed by other people in the scene. It's also very intrusive to the flow of combat because it has a tendency to turn me completely around and whip the camera rapidly. It wasn't as much of an issue when Mercy Kills were basically pointless.

Now that Mercy Kills are actually going to be a meaningful part of the game, can we please get rid of the camera lock on Mercy Kill? Or at least add an option to disable the camera lock? Please stop taking control of people's cameras without cause. I have a mouse in my hand. If I wanted a "cinematic" angle, I can achieve this myself. What I actually want is view direction continuity.

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Funny enough, if a mercy kill is done in a way that causes your frame to preform the generic mercy kill animation (such as sliding far past the enemy or the level geometry getting in the way), the generic animation does not have a cinematic camera (still locks the camera, but the animation is fast enough to not be annoying).

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46 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Now that Mercy Kills are actually going to be a meaningful part of the game

Are you sure about that part? They about that , played a few ours after the update and they still not part off the core gameplay loop ( I do agree they at least seem like a functional feature now ). 

48 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

have a mouse in my hand. If I wanted a "cinematic" angle, I can achieve this myself. What I actually want is view direction continuity.

Given that DE seemingly had a higher concern over the melee attack than the dps discrepancy or the integration off gunplay and melee when making the latest rework I would say the locked camera angle is here to stay. It just a tendency I've noticed off form over function in warframe, Yariel is just the latest example. Greenlit in looks alone while everyone that thought about it for a few hours would make the whole k drive stick a side dish and not the main serving. Do you remember I had show you a witch frame with k broom but the only way to salvage the K drive skill was to defacto make it in a missile would could ride on occasion. Making the k drive the point off the frame made her incredibly tile set dependent and she can't even rely on the helmint for help because her main survivability tool makes you unable to use helminth skills.

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Personally I'd just like to get rid of the parazon, i've never had use for this thing. Outside of forced usage like killing lichs, and jackal boss, i've never actually made use of my parazon for anything. Sure you have the auto hack, but we also have ciphers, and pressing the Y button to quickly use a cipher upon hacking is quicker then the auto hack.

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5 hours ago, Artekkor said:

But yeah, why not just make it a toggle option somewhere in the settings. So everyone's happy. Should be easy enough.

That was my thinking, as well. Parazon finishers appear to be little more than generic melee weapon finishers with a separate melee weapon - the Parazon. Offering an option to disable the camera lock shouldn't be excessively difficult. I'm guessing, obviously, but... if DE designed a finisher where NOT having fixed camera is technically challenging, then something has gone horribly wrong.

 

5 hours ago, keikogi said:

Are you sure about that part? They about that , played a few ours after the update and they still not part off the core gameplay loop ( I do agree they at least seem like a functional feature now ). 

I may have exaggerated, but Parazon finishers do actually have a function now. As a reliable means of killing tanky enemies (especially for those of us not using Rivens) seems like a useful feature, plus the new mods are pretty solid. It's just Parazon finishers used to be entirely pointless since we could never actually USE them. Now that we'll at least have a chance at using them, it seems fair to start discussing implementation. It's easier to ignore shoddy camera when we never have to deal with it.

 

5 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Personally I'd just like to get rid of the parazon, i've never had use for this thing. Outside of forced usage like killing lichs, and jackal boss, i've never actually made use of my parazon for anything. Sure you have the auto hack, but we also have ciphers, and pressing the Y button to quickly use a cipher upon hacking is quicker then the auto hack.

My impression is DE were trying to offload "finishers" onto the Parazon entirely, replacing melee weapon finishers. This would create a unified set of weapon-agnostic finisher animations and free up the animations team to create new weapon classes or stances. At least, I have to assume it started life as something like that. They didn't get rid of melee finishers, though - just added extra animations on top. I have no idea what's going on there, as a consequence.

I'm not opposed to the idea, mind you. I'm fine with having a "hidden blade" to use for executions, hacking, rappelling and probably other stuff, as well. I like gadgets that add new generic gameplay interactions. Parazon executions are just very cumbersome in their current implementation. They take too long to pull off, they fix my camera and overall seem designed as showpieces in a game with chaotic action.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

have exaggerated, but Parazon finishers do actually have a function now. As a reliable means of killing tanky enemies (especially for those of us not using Rivens) seems like a useful feature, plus the new mods are pretty solid. It's just Parazon finishers used to be entirely pointless since we could never actually USE them. Now that we'll at least have a chance at using them, it seems fair to start discussing implementation. It's easier to ignore shoddy camera when we never have to deal with it.

I was overly rash but indeed the parazon does feel like a proper feature odd the game ( frankly the old model felt like bugged icon that sometimes appeared over the enemy head. Now it realible appears and is quite useful against enemy that have scaling DR.

What I mean is the artists team seems to have a stranglehold over the gameplay direction and we end up with empty overly fancy animations ( and other problems that don't concern this thread ). Frankly I feel like the simple assassin creed 1 animations would service better when what we have .

Edit: a bit off a side note ,the camera angle they also seem to cover up minor enemy model size scaling issues and warframes teleporting to adjust position. 

If we where to have fancy ones I don't know, maybe tap for quick one hold for fancy one with an aoe dread effect ( enemies drop weapons and stand still for a couple seconds ). So there would be meaning and purpose behind the overthe top animations ( breaking enemy moral ).

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

impression is DE were trying to offload "finishers" onto the Parazon entirely, replacing melee weapon finishers.

I was under that impression too but raknoids came out end there is no finisher from  them so I've just assume mercy kills are another layer off topings on the on the warframe cake that already has more toppings than cake.

Edited by keikogi
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1 hour ago, RezMyDeadbody said:

s?  Is this intended, or is it a bug

As far as I know she can't use helminth skills while on k drive and I assume she can't do it because off animations. So probably a unfixable problem given that DE won't commit the resources to make k drive animations to all existing and future frames helminth skills.

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12 hours ago, keikogi said:

Edit: a bit off a side note ,the camera angle they also seem to cover up minor enemy model size scaling issues and warframes teleporting to adjust position.

The game actually already does this with melee finishers. Enemy size scales to player size for the duration of the animation, then scales back to normal afterwards. You can actually use melee finishers to tell what the "standard" scale of an enemy is and how an enemy is scaled relative to that. Heavy Gunners shrink drastically, meaning they're normally drastically upscaled. Moas generally grow larger, though not always - some of the newer ones shrink quite a bit. It's a fun "birdwatching" minigame for me :)

 

I assume the same is the case for Parazon finishers. Granted, I've never used them without the camera lock so that may do a good job of hiding the real-time model-scaling, but I personally never found it that distracting to begin with. As an option, I'd be fine with enemy model rescaling during Parazon finisher animations the same as during melee finishers.

 

12 hours ago, keikogi said:

I was overly rash but indeed the parazon does feel like a proper feature odd the game ( frankly the old model felt like bugged icon that sometimes appeared over the enemy head. Now it realible appears and is quite useful against enemy that have scaling DR.

That's what I was thinking, as well. Parazon finishers now seem to be a lot more reliable, so they can be used as a standard tool in our toolkit - similar to our Archguns or our Spectres. I'm actually quite happy with how that system turned out after the changes, but it does bring the camera lock issue to the forefront. As a general rule of thumb, I believe the player should never lose control of their camera outside of VERY special circumstances where it absolutely can't be avoided. I'm fine with optionally giving up control of my camera if I consent to it, but I don't like mandatory such.

Personally, I feel Half-Life 2 had the right idea some 20 years ago. If you're going to play cutscenes, then play cutscenes. Just let the player look around and walk around in the meantime.

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31 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm actually quite happy with how that system turned out after the changes, but it does bring the camera lock issue to the forefront. As a general rule of thumb, I believe the player should never lose control of their camera outside of VERY special circumstances where it absolutely can't be avoided. I'm fine with optionally giving up control of my camera if I consent to it, but I don't like mandatory such.

Camera angle swaps feel like they break the flow off the fight. Really feels like the combat is back to a new start. Doom does well with it´s mercy kills because even dought it removes the control off the player it does not abruptely snaps nor change perpective so the combat feels like just 1 stream. Even the grandfather off QTE and finishers ( god of war) , if i recall correctly the camera did not snap out it quickly panned out to the "cinematic" position. Mercy kills really feel like they are filmed by a diferent camera so it feels like it breaks the flow off combat regarless off their duration (assasin creed does the whole camera panning to the proper position masterfully , it prefers to hide part off the animation to keep the camera moviment on a reasonable speed that does not break flow ). 

39 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Personally, I feel Half-Life 2 had the right idea some 20 years ago. If you're going to play cutscenes, then play cutscenes. Just let the player look around and walk around in the meantime.

If the objective off the game is to have a good gameplay flow , yep not removing control off the player is the way. Am I fundamentaly against qte and cinematics ? No. Asura´s Wrath is a surprinly enjoyable experience but I would never put any off it´s QTE fiesta in any other game. Also Asura´s wrath was little replay value due to the scriped nature off the gameplay. 

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4 hours ago, keikogi said:

Camera angle swaps feel like they break the flow off the fight. Really feels like the combat is back to a new start. Doom does well with it´s mercy kills because even dought it removes the control off the player it does not abruptely snaps nor change perpective so the combat feels like just 1 stream. Even the grandfather off QTE and finishers ( god of war) , if i recall correctly the camera did not snap out it quickly panned out to the "cinematic" position. Mercy kills really feel like they are filmed by a diferent camera so it feels like it breaks the flow off combat regarless off their duration (assasin creed does the whole camera panning to the proper position masterfully , it prefers to hide part off the animation to keep the camera moviment on a reasonable speed that does not break flow ). 

That's a good way of putting it, yes. I wouldn't be as opposed to Mercy Kills locking my camera or potentially even panning it around. I wouldn't enjoy it, but I can deal. Hell, you guys say the "bug fallback" Mercy Kill animation also has a camera lock and I personally never noticed because it doesn't whip me around. The problem - as you say - is that it feels like Mercy Kills are filmed by a separate film crew for the game trailer. The camera shunts around to a different position that's often difficult to recognise, leaving me just a bit disorientated. When it snaps back to my character, I often lose track of where I was facing originally.

Not to mention - again - how often it bugs out. Half my Liches I've killed while starting at the corner of a wall, slope of a staircase or with me and the Lich almost entirely out of frame. My first two or three Liches, I got a bugged camera position due to terrain.

 

4 hours ago, keikogi said:

If the objective off the game is to have a good gameplay flow , yep not removing control off the player is the way. Am I fundamentaly against qte and cinematics ? No. Asura´s Wrath is a surprinly enjoyable experience but I would never put any off it´s QTE fiesta in any other game. Also Asura´s wrath was little replay value due to the scriped nature off the gameplay. 

Oh, certainly - there's nothing wrong with scripted in-engine cutscenes as a concept. I just happen to feel that Half-Life's approach of letting me still control my camera and my character for the duration improves the experience overall. I remember feeling this very hard in the old Assassin's Creed. All of the counter-attack kills had these disorientating camera angles that sapped all the momentum out of them. On the few occasions where the game bugged out and failed to fire the scripted camera, I found the game looked and felt a lot better because all of the actions took place within the same consistent, continuous space. It helped with the sense of verisimilitude, as well as spacial awareness.

I also have a broader reason to dislike "cinematic" cuts. In movies, cuts are very, very often used to hide the seams of the shoot, paper over special effects limitations and cover for bad choreography. It's much easier to stitch a fight together from 45 cuts across 10 different takes than to act it out in full, when it comes to stunt performers, just as a random example. A one-take fight often appears artificial because you end up with people standing around waiting for their cues, where they would otherwise just cease to exist between cuts until it's time for them to show up.

My beef with video games trying to be movies by aping movie-like editing is because to me, they create an impression for hiding lacking production values. When I initiate a Mercy Kill and my camera cuts in for a close-up, I instinctively have to wonder what they aren't showing me and why they don't want me to see that. Does the animation look bad from the other side? Are the models being aggressively scaled? Is the location shifted around to prevent clipping with terrain? What's going on that I'm not being allowed to see? Even if there's literally nothing like that going on, the game is using the "language" of cinema, and what it's telling me is "please don't pay attention to our bad choreography."

Games are not cinema. While there's nothing wrong with putting "cinematics" into video games, those should be kept as separate from the actual gameplay. Be a game or be a cutscene, but don't try to be both at the same time.

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On 2021-07-09 at 9:59 AM, Steel_Rook said:

When performing a Mercy Kill, the game takes control of the player's camera and forces it into a "cinematic angle." In my experience, this has a high chance of clipping into terrain or being obstructed by other people in the scene. It's also very intrusive to the flow of combat because it has a tendency to turn me completely around and whip the camera rapidly. It wasn't as much of an issue when Mercy Kills were basically pointless.

Now that Mercy Kills are actually going to be a meaningful part of the game, can we please get rid of the camera lock on Mercy Kill? Or at least add an option to disable the camera lock? Please stop taking control of people's cameras without cause. I have a mouse in my hand. If I wanted a "cinematic" angle, I can achieve this myself. What I actually want is view direction continuity.

agreed. i disable these kind of cinematics in games. both nioh 2 and code vein use these on parries and finishers but they let you disable them in the options.

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