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Bring back Transcendence! Give it a new purpose in the New War if you have to!


xARCHONx
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This is likely to fall into the depths of the forums, but I can always hold out hope that someone from DE might pick up on this.

After finishing the Second Dream we gain the ability to use the Transcendence ability, the void chest-beam.

I always saw this as raw un-tempered power of your operator. And sure enough after completing The War Within you are able to jump out of your Warframe at will and you're given a Mote Amp which always felt weaker. 

 

Why not bring a stronger, faster cooldown Transcendence back that we can use by holding down the Transcendence/Transference button?

Why remove the ability altogether after a single story arch? I'd like to think the chest beam can have some special damage value against sentients, giving it a real purpose.

 

Here's to hoping this gets signal boosted.

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It was pretty neat to see the big laser but it was horribly underpowered. By todays standards it would not be acceptable. When it was introduced the meta enemy level was around level 80. And even then it wasnt very useful past like level 30.

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55 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It was pretty neat to see the big laser but it was horribly underpowered. By todays standards it would not be acceptable. When it was introduced the meta enemy level was around level 80. And even then it wasnt very useful past like level 30.

It being on an unassailable cooldown anyway, probably wouldn't hurt if it were given percentile and/or true damage to make it guaranteed punchy when you felt the need to pull it out. I mean, we've had the discussion plenty about how dissonant 'void damage' is between lore and game while Xaku was fresh...

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9 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Don't stop at just the modern TSD-TWW Transcendence, bring back the unique Transcendences from when TSD first launched, with different effects depending on school. I miss my big void-y button.

What kind of other things did Transcendence do, out of curiosity?

 

If it came back in the form of a hold-to-cast, I think that would be a nice option; Perhaps in return for getting a major buff of some kind (To differentiate it (At least damage-wise) from other Operator attacks), it could continuously use up the focus meter until you hold the buttons again, or the meter runs out. Maybe when focus is looked at again, Transcendence could be integrated into the different trees for upgrades like that.

  • I would imagine that you could also be invulnerable to damage during the transcendence as well, or perhaps reflect damage taken back to the enemy since it could be like a back-against-the-wall situation. Just some food for thought :)
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On 2021-07-11 at 10:48 PM, Iamabearlulz said:

Don't stop at just the modern TSD-TWW Transcendence, bring back the unique Transcendences from when TSD first launched, with different effects depending on school. I miss my big void-y button.

Some of them could stand to be reworked (three of them were different flavors of essentially the same CC), but I agree. Give us a bunch of overpowered "Oh sh-" cooldowns.

Personal concept:

Have the Operator push themself out of your Warframe, but allow you to continue controlling your Warframe while your Operator hovers behind you like a guardian angel, bleeding out void energy in all directions while pulsing a beneficial aura.

  • Madurai gets the high-damage beam with a low chance to insta-kill non-boss targets on each tick that aims it with your reticule but Focus upgrades increase its affected area, spread random status effects on each tick, and increase the chance to insta-kill per tick. 
  • Vazarin briefly pulses healing across affinity range (like Blessing getting spammed), while Focus upgrades increase the number of pulses, restore allies' ammo, and allow it to instantly revive downed allies/resurrect dead companions.
  • Naramon pulses waves that reset enemy awareness and make them completely oblivious to Tenno while highlighting them for the player, with Focus upgrades to add bonus effects to Finisher kills on affected enemies such as flashbangs, personal speed boosts, or free Scans and bonus drops.
  • Zenurik temporarily removes the costs, upkeep and cooldowns for the abilities of nearby Warframes, with Focus upgrades to increase Strength/Range/Duration of affected abilities.
    • "Why not refund energy?" Because we already use Energizing Dash. Combine the two and you'll be recovering energy while spamming abilities.
  • Unairu gives you temporary damage/status/Eximus invulnerability and an aura that taunts alerted enemies to target you, with Focus upgrades to add damage/status reflection, magnetize enemies and projectiles to you, or place barriers on nearby allies.

Each has their own strengths and rewards different playstyles, with very little overlap.

... but then, add an annoying penalty to using the cooldown so that you can't base your entire strategy around "use on cooldown". Lock the user out of using the Operator for a while until your Operator recovers, or suffer some other personal debuff from over-exerting yourself as if you "front-loaded" all of your potential for a few seconds. Something like -

  • Madurai significantly reduces your damage output from all sources
  • Vazarin hampers your mobility and prevents using Gear
    • "Wait but Vazarin doesn't make you faster!" Yes, but it partially negates the need to move in the first place. A big part of mobility affects your ability to pick up allies, collect healing items, protect objectives and avoid incoming damage.
  • Naramon scrambles your HUD and prevents using Gear
  • Zenurik Nullifies your abilities across all sources (including Archwing and Necramech)
  • Unairu increases your damage vulnerability

Why? Partly for the drama, but mostly because I remember the days when you only wanted Naramon and Vazarin for the passive abilities after activating the cooldown, because they were otherwise very flashy and largely useless without investment.
There should be a level of potency to such abilities to warrant their own use, and giving them a heavy penalty after use would act as a built-in counterbalance to warrant making them absolute tide-turners at any and all levels.

Edited by Archwizard
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On 2021-07-14 at 7:19 PM, Archwizard said:

... but then, add an annoying penalty to using the cooldown so that you can't base your entire strategy around "use on cooldown". Lock the user out of using the Operator for a while until your Operator recovers, or suffer some other personal debuff from over-exerting yourself as if you "front-loaded" all of your potential for a few seconds. Something like -

  • Madurai significantly reduces your damage output from all sources
  • Vazarin hampers your mobility and prevents using Gear
    • "Wait but Vazarin doesn't make you faster!" Yes, but it partially negates the need to move in the first place. A big part of mobility affects your ability to pick up allies, collect healing items, protect objectives and avoid incoming damage.
  • Naramon scrambles your HUD and prevents using Gear
  • Zenurik Nullifies your abilities across all sources (including Archwing and Necramech)
  • Unairu increases your damage vulnerability

I like this idea, but the consequence might be a bit extreme. These penalties could apply for the first few seconds after using Transcendence, then play as normal for the rest of the cooldown. Punishing players this severely for pressing the Panic Button just makes them avoid it entirely.

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I do feel like we should have an ability or 2 depending on the school. Everything revolves around some minor augment to void mode, dash, or blast.

Might give me a reason to not default to Zenurik 99.9% of the time.

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3 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

These penalties could apply for the first few seconds after using Transcendence, then play as normal for the rest of the cooldown. Punishing players this severely for pressing the Panic Button just makes them avoid it entirely.

Oh, I wouldn't dream of forcing someone to suffer those debuffs for the whole Transcendence cooldown. Those cooldowns were like 3-5 minutes iirc; running around that whole time while nullified or nearly blinded by a scrambled HUD would make the game literally unplayable for most of the mission.
No, just for a few seconds. Like, 15-20 seems fair? At worst with the effects suspended during bleedout (so you can't just cheese out of it)?
Less than that seems like there's no point even having a penalty (3 second invulnerability windows feel like you blink and miss 'em), more than that seems like an unfair risk of death shortly after activation. I think that's a good sweet spot.

The idea is just to make it so you really, REALLY want to think about whether you're gonna hit that button, plan where you wanna be when you hit that button, and encourage you to get the most out of it when you do, rather than just use it on cooldown for free kills or buffs. Save it for a critical moment, then when all seems hopeless, Limit Break.

Edited by Archwizard
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Honestly instead of returning trancendance what they need to do is rework focus schools to change up combat in different ways for each school rather than just giving the operator form similar skills for each one. 

Like for example unairu being a tank tree should give your frames the ability to draw enemy fire to themself in exchange for increased survivability or similar when holding 5.  Effectively making you the frontline of your team. Naramon could do the opposite, making enemies less likely to notice you, or make you have a smoke trail when holding 5. 

Honestly there'd be a way to give each school a unique power and playstyle which would greatly vary up how frames play person to person based on what school you had. Just as one martial art fights differently to another. 

Simply adding the void beam back in though feels like itd be a missed oppotunity. Even the old tww powers didnt particularly achieve it in a way that was fitting imo, but set 5th abilities that are controllable and charged via operator energy etc would be great

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7 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Honestly instead of returning trancendance what they need to do is rework focus schools to change up combat in different ways for each school rather than just giving the operator form similar skills for each one. 

Like for example unairu being a tank tree should give your frames the ability to draw enemy fire to themself in exchange for increased survivability or similar when holding 5.  Effectively making you the frontline of your team. Naramon could do the opposite, making enemies less likely to notice you, or make you have a smoke trail when holding 5. 

Honestly there'd be a way to give each school a unique power and playstyle which would greatly vary up how frames play person to person based on what school you had. Just as one martial art fights differently to another. 

Simply adding the void beam back in though feels like itd be a missed oppotunity. Even the old tww powers didnt particularly achieve it in a way that was fitting imo, but set 5th abilities that are controllable and charged via operator energy etc would be great

Absolutely agreed that Focus schools as they are now are too similar, "Here's the same set of powers for everyone with X bonus for each school. By the way, here's a penalty for actually investing in X bonus, so you're largely going to use the same set of powers."

The fact that there's a penalty on each power investment means most people don't dip that deep into the pools themselves, which defeats the point of it being an end-game style continuous growth tree. (Though I would also say that's in part because of how frustrating it is to actually advance; the Convergence orbs give me a migraine and you can't distill them off frames when not in use. Discussion for another topic though.) And the fact that each of the powers really don't match up in terms of effectiveness (ie relative "Here's a small damage boost to a particular damage type or a bump in your armor" vs absolute "Here's some energy regen, invisibility on Finishers or instant revives") means you have one or two trees of more value than the others.

But really the biggest sin, I feel, is that Focus emphasizes the Operator's personal effectiveness as a combat unit, despite that the Operator is under no circumstances ever going to match up to a Warframe, usually only coming out when you need to blast a Sentient, dash through a laser door or get an invulnerable revive. As it is now, Focus is only worth investing in for the powers that benefit your Warframe directly in the Operator's absence. In my opinion, the Operator should be relegated more to a supportive role in general while more of the Focus trees should emphasize the interplay of the Operator and Warframe, like giving one a benefit relative to the other's actions.

Edited by Archwizard
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On 2021-07-09 at 4:10 PM, xARCHONx said:

I always saw this as raw un-tempered power of your operator. And sure enough after completing The War Within you are able to jump out of your Warframe at will and you're given a Mote Amp which always felt weaker

This is really an issue with the Mote amp.

The Mote is weaker than the Trancendence beam, but you can use it longer and get void mode which overall is a huge buff. Trancendence feels amazing when you get it, but it's balanced to fairly low level enemies (though it doesn't feel like that given its 20 hours or so into the star chart for most players).

Meanwhile every other amp is massively more powerful than trancendence beam. Amps don't temper your raw power, they amplify it. 

That said, amps don't have mods and so don't scale at all outside of levelling your focus schools. They're quickly obsolete for everything except certain boss battles and removing resistances from sentients.

The problem is really the mote amp, as it sucks. They should just boost the power of all the amps, maybe by adding mods to them that allow damage to scale.

Bringing trancendence back just adds another button combo to an already complicated control scheme to fire a weapon that's almost useless.

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Posted (edited)

I get what your saying. 

I just think they should bring it back instead of making it a temporary things.

 

Still keep Transference by tapping, but transcendence as an option. It was great as a momentary invulnerability.

But yeah, adding mods to amps makes a lot of sense. Just like they reworked RJ with the Plexus.

 

Edit: I do like the idea of operator schools being reworked so better diversify them. Zenurik for me is really the only one worth using at the moment

Edited by xARCHONx
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