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A concern regarding Warframe's community


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This is my first post in the forum, and it likely will be my last.

It was 5 years ago when I first joined and honestly when I first played the game it didn't appeal to me much. Weeks later I gave the game another chance, this time grouped up with my friends. Honestly, I love the community and I had stuck with it since. Even when my friends haven't come online for 200+ days now. I continued to play the game as it was an enjoyable experience for me, until I found out something today.

Warframe is a PVE-based game as Conclave wasn't the thing DE were focusing on (Thank god). Though, it seems that more and more people are complaining about a system or frames that they think are underpowered. Yes, these kind of concerns are fine, but it seemed to me that it have gotten out of hand.

Of course I'm the madman who think that there's problems in the Warframe community, but what I am saying is that people are actively making the community a toxic environment.  They complained constantly about the state of the game without doing anything to help with the problem such as bugs or frames being too weak for people to consider it "Worth playing" when the entire game is PVE. We play games to enjoy ourselves and there is no need for us to tryhard and only play frames that can nuke the entire tileset with a press of a button. 

Another point that I want to bring up is players blaming the game for being "Too hard". Although, most people I've seen does not have that kind of problem, none that I've known of anyways.

I don't want Warframe to go out by the community killing it themselves. I loved the game back then and I still do now, but it looks like the game is rotting from the inside and the people who you built the house and everything for them are bringing the walls down.

I'm sorry if this post triggered any of the players/DE staff but I wish to take it out of my chest and share my point of view on the game. If you are going to hate me for this then read the entire post and leave your defenses below. 

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... Most people don't even know what they want, and go to enormous lengths to show that fact to everyone else.

What you have, and most likely will, witness is simply a consequence of lots of heads bumping on irrelevant stuff, while all the relevant stuff are way out of reach because, well... no one's even near them, apparently.

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I've learned my lesson of saying 'the community' as some monolithic force. It isn't, and that's kind of a part of the issue.

Warframe is a castle built on the ruins of a castle built on the ruins of a castle, as Steve Sinclair once said. This approach makes fine buildings and fine games - my local cathedral is literally built on its own ruins, so the metaphor works, and games have been iterating on themselves forever. The problem is, those ruins haven't had their brickwork fixed in a long time, and man is it not up to modern code.

That is to say, Warframe is built on not just its past successes, but its past flaws. In comparison with, for example, Destiny 2, which had a notoriously flawed release, almost nothing of its launch even exists in its current rendition. Which, granted is a flaw in its own right, but whilst D2 remains heavily flawed and I currently have no interest in it, what matters is that Bungie were willing, and remain willing to make structural changes to the systems, even when those changes are problematic. Stasis being an example, since the entire game was built on the damage-type trinity.

Warframe, on the other hand was built as a tactical stealth/action hybrid corridor shooter thing. And if we're honest, it wasn't necessarily the best in its field, at least from what I can find. But a lot of those old issues still exist. Armour scaling has been talked about as an issue for years, and its only gotten more extreme. The damage type system is bloated and counter-productive to itself. Enemy AI and core design principles haven't changed since those older days. And when Warframe gradually made the transition to a horde shooter, these old systems that were questionably designed for a totally different game became, at best alarmingly ramshackle and at worst downright broken. 

 

The worst part is that people are still living in those old ruins, and from what I can tell, they're as annoyed about their new neighbours causing dust and rubble to fall down every time they make the walls shake from a party as the neighbours are concerned that the walls are shaking from even the slightest jostling.

Somebody needs to reinforce the building.

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Il y a 3 heures, Loza03 a dit :

I've learned my lesson of saying 'the community' as some monolithic force. It isn't, and that's kind of a part of the issue.

 

Damn true!

Il y a 1 heure, Leqesai a dit :

Hate to be that guy.... but wrong section of the forums dude. 

Damn true too!

 

More seriously. I think DE want to make deep change (and have done many. the 29th something update, armour scaling, and such) but, in their playerbase, there is too many different expectations. (Some want old fashioned WF comeback (I m guilty) some want more mobs everywhere, some want clever ennemies, some ask to grind as fast as possible, some ask for stories, etc.) They want to make everyone happy but we, the player, cry everytime one of our favorite toy get touch... So they can't broke and rebuild as needed, they must change brick per brick to limit the crisis.

 

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5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe is a castle built on the ruins of a castle built on the ruins of a castle

This is a beautiful metaphor.

I've been playing for about a month now (but, like, way too much) and it does feel kind of like there's an element of amatuer archeology, haha. The game has a ton of options, and the community definitely wants to go in everywhich direction at once. Heck, it seems like DE wants to go everywhich direction to ... but  perhaps at a more plausible pace.

As a side note, the whole horde shooter thing has really taken me by surprise. I gravitated straight towards the silent weapons and stealth play during the intro sequence, and it's been working well enough for me so far. But I was scanning the tail section of that busted railjack today, and realized that all these Corpus dudes were charging at me head first, having just seen me put arrows through ten guys exactly like them in the last four seconds. Are they all dying just to slow me down a bit? I mean, I think I probably killed a few thousand folks today, not to mention all the infested. The total population of the star chart must be mind boggling 🤯

Edited by (NSW)notyetawizard
typed too many words, but left most anyways
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The people who have issues are literally making suggestions on how to fix the things they have issues with constantly.

Nobody says the game is “too hard”.

The only thing I’ve seen change the last 3 years has been DE. I started playing in late 2016. And the last great piece of content was the Jovian Concord with Wisp and the Ropalolyst fight. Everything else has been marred by DE making some of the worst decisions they could possibly make and giving us extremely flimsy excuses for those decisions.

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On 2021-07-09 at 1:00 PM, CrozOver said:

This is my first post in the forum, and it likely will be my last.

..............
I'm sorry if this post triggered any of the players/DE staff but I wish to take it out of my chest and share my point of view on the game. If you are going to hate me for this then read the entire post and leave your defenses below. 

You MISSED A LOT of what have made the community more "toxic". Since late 2018, we have seen ENDLESS NERFS and updates that have absolutely destroyed many unique mechanics/weapons. And there were constant Riven disposition nerfs as well. All of them made many players not just "toxic" but ANGRY. It is starting from that moment, the community becomes more and more negative as we see our time and investment in this game got nerfed and destroyed in the false name of "balance."
It seems to be getting better lately. The last Riven disposition updates are mostly buffs. I guess DE has finally heard what players are screaming at them for years as they lose player base. 
This new update again destroyed many melee weapons and now we are seeing pathetic damage numbers from most melees, but some mechanics still "works". And then we have some pretty decent gun buffs. Hopefully melees can get buffed again back to 2017-2018 level sometime as we build and test new gun builds. 

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On 2021-07-09 at 10:00 PM, CrozOver said:

I'm sorry if this post triggered any of the players/DE staff but I wish to take it out of my chest and share my point of view on the game. If you are going to hate me for this then read the entire post and leave your defenses below. 

People will hate you and will think you're a "shill" just because you don't b*tch about everything the devs make.

Because the ""meta"" of the community right now is saying that "DE HATES US! POOR US, DEV BAD!". the community it's not getting clownish, it's getting like a whole ass circus and everybody seems to be fine with it. 

They don't want to farm in a farming game.

They don't want RNG in a game that was FILLED TO THE BRIM WITH RNG SINCE DAY ONE.

They don't want a frame because "that's cringe!" when we always had cringeworthy frames. 

They were fine and happy with the melee powercreep that was, AND STILL IS, in the game from 2/3 years but as soon as it gets nerfed (thank god) and the gun buffed, powercreep seems to be a problem. 

They want challenge but at the same time challenging content is hated because it's challenging.

They have biased opinions and double standards like there is no tomorrow. 

 

Edited by (PSN)max141064
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7 hours ago, George_PPS said:

You MISSED A LOT of what have made the community more "toxic". Since late 2018, we have seen ENDLESS NERFS and updates that have absolutely destroyed many unique mechanics/weapons. And there were constant Riven disposition nerfs as well. All of them made many players not just "toxic" but ANGRY. It is starting from that moment, the community becomes more and more negative as we see our time and investment in this game got nerfed and destroyed in the false name of "balance."
It seems to be getting better lately. The last Riven disposition updates are mostly buffs. I guess DE has finally heard what players are screaming at them for years as they lose player base. 
This new update again destroyed many melee weapons and now we are seeing pathetic damage numbers from most melees, but some mechanics still "works". And then we have some pretty decent gun buffs. Hopefully melees can get buffed again back to 2017-2018 level sometime as we build and test new gun builds. 

"Endless NERF" he said as the power creep completely balloon out of control with players wiping the map faster than ever, dealing ludicrous level of damage and never die unless we do something ridiculous like staying in a  mission for 2 hours+.  Things that was hard is now super easy. 1 shotting Eidolon limbs used to take a expensive Sniper riven, now can be done with a gunblade or Voidrig. Surviving 2 hours in Mot used to be hard, and now people can do it half asleep against Super Mot with + 100 levels and 250% armor/HP. Insanely overpowered Warframes like Mesa and Saryn are now considered average because how much the entire game have been buffed around them. Hydroid, which used to be a perfectly viable frame is now left in the dump as his poor scalings has no way of keeping up with the power creep. The players keep getting stronger and stronger relative to the game, yet it's never enough. DE keeps buffing over and over again but the playerbase is never grateful for it. Helminth was a biggest player buff I have ever witness in any video game, and all people could see was a few percent off from Roar.  

"Toxic" is correct. "No, never enough damage, not big enough numbers. I want to win the game spamming 1 or 2 buttons, and doing absolutely nothing else. Anything that infringe upon that is the end of the Earth."   

Rivens have finally stop getting nerfed because most of them have settled into a good place. They were originally supposed to make the bad weapons good, not the good weapons better. Now all that's left is to buff the rivens for weaker weapons gradually, based on usage rates. Only the big 4 is left: Gram Prime, Kronen Prime, Glaive Prime and Reaper Prime, weapons that had far higher disposition than they were supposed to (because DE couldn't separate riven dispo between different weapon variant in the past). They WILL go to .5 dispo eventually, trust me on this one.   

The only thing DE does wrong is being far too generous. They buff too much, making people spoiled and go on to expect more buffs forever.  Like a giving a kid too much candy/junk food and now they refuse to eat anything but candy and junk food.  

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2 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

"Endless NERF" he said as the power creep completely balloon out of control with players wiping the map faster than ever, dealing ludicrous level of damage and never die unless we do something ridiculous like staying in a  mission for 2 hours+.  Things that was hard is now super easy. 1 shotting Eidolon limbs used to take a expensive Sniper riven, now can be done with a gunblade or Voidrig. Surviving 2 hours in Mot used to be hard, and now people can do it half asleep against Super Mot with + 100 levels and 250% armor/HP. Insanely overpowered Warframes like Mesa and Saryn are now considered average because how much the entire game have been buffed around them. Hydroid, which used to be a perfectly viable frame is now left in the dump as his poor scalings has no way of keeping up with the power creep. The players keep getting stronger and stronger relative to the game, yet it's never enough. DE keeps buffing over and over again but the playerbase is never grateful for it. Helminth was a biggest player buff I have ever witness in any video game, and all people could see was a few percent off from Roar.  

"Toxic" is correct. "No, never enough damage, not big enough numbers. I want to win the game spamming 1 or 2 buttons, and doing absolutely nothing else. Anything that infringe upon that is the end of the Earth."   

Rivens have finally stop getting nerfed because most of them have settled into a good place. They were originally supposed to make the bad weapons good, not the good weapons better. Now all that's left is to buff the rivens for weaker weapons gradually, based on usage rates. Only the big 4 is left: Gram Prime, Kronen Prime, Glaive Prime and Reaper Prime, weapons that had far higher disposition than they were supposed to (because DE couldn't separate riven dispo between different weapon variant in the past). They WILL go to .5 dispo eventually, trust me on this one.   

The only thing DE does wrong is being far too generous. They buff too much, making people spoiled and go on to expect more buffs forever.  Like a giving a kid too much candy/junk food and now they refuse to eat anything but candy and junk food.  

Well said

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30 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

"Endless NERF" he said as the power creep completely balloon out of control.

You can always choose harder missions, get good, or reduce the mods equipped to fit your taste. Vast majority of players mod their builds for maximum efficiency. It's fun. 

FYI, years of nerfs have not simply just destroyed damages of many weapons. A lot of unique mechanics of weapons many players love have also been entirely trashed. 

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1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Vast majority of players mod their builds for maximum efficiency. It's fun. 

And you assume I don't do the same? My staple loadout is nothing but meta AoE tools like Breach Surge, Bramma, Knukor and Glaive Prime. Yes, it's fun to do big fat number. 

Like this

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or this

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or this 

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The difference is I recognize that we have received too many buffs, and so it's perfectly ok to be nerfed back down a bit.  It's really is that simple.  You can intentionally handicap yourself by going around shooting with a half modded Braton, but that's the equivalent of putting on a blindfold and ignore reality.  You can intentionally play the game badly and it doesn't change the fact that we have had far more buffs than nerfs.  

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

A lot of unique mechanics of weapons many players love have also been entirely trashed. 

Like? If you are referring to Gas status and the Zenistar, then I agree what happened to them was tragic, and that DE should buff them back up to viability soon (like they have done for Ash). But again, these are outliers. The overarching pattern is that players has been getting increasingly much more powerful overall.  

Edit: If you are hopping into SP Mot right now and spending the next 8 hours getting to lvl 9000 or whatever to prove a point, then Please, don't. It will hurt you more than it will hurt me.  

Edited by Bakaguya-sama
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I could care less how the "community" is perceived by anyone at this point, the "community" doesn't impact how I play or even enjoy the game. All the attention should rest upon DE, it's their decisions that make or break the status of this game, and this game is indeed in shambles. All the subsections of the "community" try to do is provide feedback on a plethora of topics to gauge DE's interest in correcting their mistakes or making significant improvements, which seems to be utterly pointless at this rate. The forums are a great example of this, being the official feedback platform that receives far less traffic & attention in comparison to Youtube, Twitter & Reddit. To say that some player feedback on this platform is unfocused or worthless is an absolute lie, but perhaps the reason for this dismissiveness is to embolden or boost the broken morale of DE. At this rate though, I invest my faith in the players who've experienced the same years-long slog that I have.

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3 hours ago, George_PPS said:

You can always choose harder missions, get good, or reduce the mods equipped to fit your taste. Vast majority of players mod their builds for maximum efficiency. It's fun. 

FYI, years of nerfs have not simply just destroyed damages of many weapons. A lot of unique mechanics of weapons many players love have also been entirely trashed. 

You didn't really read the person's response did you? There was a pretty comprehensive explanation of what they meant after the one sentence you singled out.

It is completely valid to bring up the truth that is Power Creep. It isn't a matter of playing harder missions or "get good"

The game is piss easy now. There isn't any content in the game that is challenging due to how incredibly overpowered we are compared to where we were 5 years ago. 

Your argument is absurd because you aren't acknowledging the state of the game and in turn have spun the discussion back to a player problem instead of a development problem.

The 'years of nerfs' thing is completely stupid. Yes DE does asinine nerfing. But they've also released loads and loads of SIGNIFICANT power boosts. It is absolutely absurd to disregard this and continue whining about the nerfs. 

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I think a lot of Warframe's community issues come from toxic content creators. Warframe doesn't have a lot of entertainment value compared to other games, so the most popular videos are drama from entitled players (If you know them, you know them) who don't actually care about enjoying the game because their standards are impossible. People then absorb those toxic and poorly thought out opinions without really interrogating them, and they regurgitate them elsewhere. Now, thankfully those players quarantine themselves in the forums instead of actually playing the game they allegedly "love and only want to see get better".  If you actually play the game, the community is really nice and helpful, while the worst you'll see are the efficiency brats and whatever you call the people in region chat.

I'm definitely ranting. The short of it is that the Warframe community is mostly fine, we just have a minority of loud and whiny people on the outside who make the community look bad.

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