So should we tone down our power further?

[TheArmchairThinker]

Seeing that some people complaining on sisters having specters or ourselves killing even a chroma really fast, I can say one thing : our power wrecks our defenses in one shot

In this case, I believe those chroma users can reach 1 million damage with no sweat. That means even with max Vex Armor you're seeing around 10k damage with one shot, enough to kill any warframe.

So what am I going to do if I were DE? Limit all damage buffing abilities to 2x (100% damage bonus) so no matter your strength, it's only make you deal double damage with strength determining the other aspect of it

Example

- Vex Armor : strength affects gain per shield/health lost, with 300% strength gives maximum value with minimum amount of damage taken

- Sonar : strength affects amount of weak spot appearing per cast

- Void Strike : capped the amount of charge to 10, with higher rank giving more charge per second

Now you (and DE) have some rough calculation on how high a player power can go, going further into "balance"

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing that some people complaining on sisters having specters or ourselves killing even a chroma really fast, I can say one thing : our power wrecks our defenses in one shot

In this case, I believe those chroma users can reach 1 million damage with no sweat. That means even with max Vex Armor you're seeing around 10k damage with one shot, enough to kill any warframe.

So what am I going to do if I were DE? Limit all damage buffing abilities to 2x (100% damage bonus) so no matter your strength, it's only make you deal double damage with strength determining the other aspect of it

Example

- Vex Armor : strength affects gain per shield/health lost, with 300% strength gives maximum value with minimum amount of damage taken

- Sonar : strength affects amount of weak spot appearing per cast

- Void Strike : capped the amount of charge to 10, with higher rank giving more charge per second

Now you (and DE) have some rough calculation on how high a player power can go, going further into "balance"

damage is calculated differenly for PCs versus mobs, as far as I know. Also these ideas are just bad. Nothing personal, it is what it is.

[Sazero]

It's relatively common for player damage to be much higher compared to enemy damage.
And vise versa player health is lower than enemy health.

To make an example:
Player Health: 80
Player Damage: 4000
Enemy Health: 8000
Enemy Damage: 10

As you can see a player can kill an enemy in 2 hits.
The enemy can kill a player in 8 hits.

This is all fine and good until you have enemies fighting enemies
or players fighting players.

In this example it would take Enemy A 800 hits to kill Enemy B if they have the same stats.
Meanwhile Player A kills Player B in 1 hit.

There might have been a problem if Warframe was a PVP game, but it's not.
So this is working fine and as intended. Don't fix what isn't broken.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

people aren't gonna want more nerfs just because some Corpus can reflect our damage back at us. it's just another form of enemy cheese that we will inevitably find a way around, because that's what we do. given how people reacted to the melee nerfs - which were only slight  - the forums would explode if abilities were nerfed as much as you want. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 hours ago, Sazero said:

It's relatively common for player damage to be much higher compared to enemy damage.
And vise versa player health is lower than enemy health.

To make an example:
Player Health: 80
Player Damage: 4000
Enemy Health: 8000
Enemy Damage: 10

As you can see a player can kill an enemy in 2 hits.
The enemy can kill a player in 8 hits.

This is all fine and good until you have enemies fighting enemies
or players fighting players.

In this example it would take Enemy A 800 hits to kill Enemy B if they have the same stats.
Meanwhile Player A kills Player B in 1 hit.

There might have been a problem if Warframe was a PVP game, but it's not.
So this is working fine and as intended. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Makes things like mind control and Radiation rather useless for damage though. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

On 2021-07-10 at 11:51 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

people aren't gonna want more nerfs just because some Corpus can reflect our damage back at us. it's just another form of enemy cheese that we will inevitably find a way around, because that's what we do. given how people reacted to the melee nerfs - which were only slight  - the forums would explode if abilities were nerfed as much as you want. 

If every new enemy is going to sport scaling damage reduction based on our DPS, then our damage is already nerfed.

Who cares if this new weapon can one shot a level 9999 Heavy Gunner. A Heavy Gunner isn't a Corpus Karen. It'll tickle a Karen as much as an MK1-Braton.

Our gear is only strong against fodder enemies that don't matter. All the new bosses have ways to invalidate our investments. 

I rather have lower numbers if those lower numbers actually meant something.

Ways to normalize player damage without affecting mod UI:

1. Critical Multiplier additive with Base Damage. 4.4x Multiplier = +340% Base Damage
2. Viral procs additive with Base Damage. +325% Base Damage at 10 procs
3. Headshot multiplier replaced with flat +100% Critical Chance.
4. All +%Multi-shot comes with equal -%accuracy.

 

 

[NocheLuz]

6 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Makes things like mind control and Radiation rather useless for damage though. 

Radiation is to confuse PvE mobs into fighting each other and not the Tenno = reduce potential damage. But have the potential to get AoE damage (Which I have experienced myself... lol)

Mind control now has bonus damage which... TBH.... still too low...

[Sazero]

DE gave Nyx's Mind Control extra damage precisely because enemy damage is low.

[Tyreaus]

9 hours ago, Sazero said:

Don't fix what isn't broken.

It's kind of broken, though. The design is an arms race between our damage output and the enemy health. But the game isn't really well-built for the numbers we put out, which tend to be proportionally far above even that list you threw up. That's led to boatloads of cheese on both ends to try to get some form of engagement without making enemies the next Wolf of Saturn Six. Practically speaking, you make enemies too weak, and new weapons aren't worth the investment because the old ones perform just as well if not better; you make them too strong and the low AI complexity befitting a horde shooter starts to shine through. Not to mention the sheer aggravation of dealing with bullet sponges.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

32 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It's kind of broken, though. The design is an arms race between our damage output and the enemy health. But the game isn't really well-built for the numbers we put out, which tend to be proportionally far above even that list you threw up. That's led to boatloads of cheese on both ends to try to get some form of engagement without making enemies the next Wolf of Saturn Six. Practically speaking, you make enemies too weak, and new weapons aren't worth the investment because the old ones perform just as well if not better; you make them too strong and the low AI complexity befitting a horde shooter starts to shine through. Not to mention the sheer aggravation of dealing with bullet sponges.

Right now, due to scaling DR on new enemies, the new weapons are just as weak as the old ones. Unless you're into endurance runs against enemies that have been with the game since launch, there isn't much of a point to the bigger numbers.

[Sazero]

18 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

It's kind of broken, though. The design is an arms race between our damage output and the enemy health. But the game isn't really well-built for the numbers we put out, which tend to be proportionally far above even that list you threw up. That's led to boatloads of cheese on both ends to try to get some form of engagement without making enemies the next Wolf of Saturn Six. Practically speaking, you make enemies too weak, and new weapons aren't worth the investment because the old ones perform just as well if not better; you make them too strong and the low AI complexity befitting a horde shooter starts to shine through. Not to mention the sheer aggravation of dealing with bullet sponges.

I am speaking in the context of players reflecting their own damage back at themselves or onto other players.

OP is suggesting that we lower player damage because we kill ourselves when it gets reflected back on us. Which is faulty logic.

1. Warframe is a PvE game. Player on Player damage is rare. It can occur, but balancing gameplay around a small rare occurence is wrong. (Yes I am omitting Conclave, it uses a different balancing formula)
2. We are supposed to do high damage. Enemies have such high health and armor values, that if we lower our own damage to a point where we don't kill ourselves with it, when it gets reflected back at us. It will take forever to kill even basic soft enemies.

Now if you want to talk about regular game balancing or power creep, then that's for another thread. I don't want to go into it here, or ever preferedly. Because the changes that would need to be made to make the game "balanced", is so vast that it will never happen. It would be a purely theoretical excercize

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-07-10 at 11:05 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing that some people complaining on sisters having specters or ourselves killing even a chroma really fast, I can say one thing : our power wrecks our defenses in one shot

In this case, I believe those chroma users can reach 1 million damage with no sweat. That means even with max Vex Armor you're seeing around 10k damage with one shot, enough to kill any warframe.

So what am I going to do if I were DE? Limit all damage buffing abilities to 2x (100% damage bonus) so no matter your strength, it's only make you deal double damage with strength determining the other aspect of it

Example

- Vex Armor : strength affects gain per shield/health lost, with 300% strength gives maximum value with minimum amount of damage taken

- Sonar : strength affects amount of weak spot appearing per cast

- Void Strike : capped the amount of charge to 10, with higher rank giving more charge per second

Now you (and DE) have some rough calculation on how high a player power can go, going further into "balance"

That wont help much since you will still be 1HKing most things even at higher levels like Steel Path which also has increased stat scaling. In all honesty I'd take the 2x damage and improved Sonar painting from strength since it would make it easier to produce higher damage with more of a mob painted.

And how would this work on frames with sub +100% damage skills? Would they require strength to reach the +100% cap or would it be baseline for all damage buffing skills?

[ShogunGunshow]

On 2021-07-10 at 5:23 AM, Sazero said:

DE gave Nyx's Mind Control extra damage precisely because enemy damage is low.

And even with 1000s of % damage increase, it's still way too low. Both because the AI is awful, and because the damage is pathetic. 

Maybe if MC was perma and you could give them one of your guns, lol. But then the AI is still awful and can't keep up.