Numerous Melee Weapon Classes Recieved Undocumented Follow Through Nerfs

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, rapt0rman said:

It was.

Again, source?

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Wow, that's a great observation. I love the fact you keep all the data. And i guess you have to check MANY weapons.

[rapt0rman]

 

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Again, source?

*shrug* I've been looking for it, but as said, I haven't found it. But even If I don't end up finding it, randomly accusing people really doesn't help anything.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

 

*shrug* I've been looking for it, but as said, I haven't found it. But even If I don't end up finding it, randomly accusing people really doesn't help anything.

“Randomly”. Whatever. I’ll just wait for the source of claims.

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, Monolake said:

This is uncontrolled powercreep for you, DE never learned anything in 8 years and had run the game into deadend, the players are way too overpowered so now DE resorts to making 'cheating' mobs that just ignore the damage, or put up stupid waitwalls on a timer - because its impossible to create any gameplay with players being too OP. The game is unfixable at this point, especially with the blind easy-mode playerbase who only wants to play with cheats and can never see how it ruins the game.

i have 3 questions and they are not necessarily tangent but is realted to balance ; 

1 - does streamline the 30% efficeny a cheating 

2 - are crit stacking and/or status stacking cheating 

3 - is energy drain eximus units existing a cheating for enemy ? (tho it is a countermeasure to us in long runs) 

what is cheating define it , 

DE give me mod , i use , DE implement drain eximus , i look ... im bad at poetry .. 

The language youre trying to use there reminds of what exactly DE uses in their patchnotes , they implement khoras' pet healing defense objectives , DE create a defense based time limited mode , DE notice pet heal , DE go omg das not r8 we have to say smtg to eliminate it . .. see where im going ? 

If you create a game where you spontenpusly add things on top of each other with no regards to how they function within each other all the systems , you cant just blame users for using what you just gave them . 

For me personally i lost sight of the 'endgame'  and heres the thing arguably at this point we can conclude that you cant make a true endgame in  a hord shooter/killer because you will need AOE to deal with them and the premise of AOE deletes any thought process into actively playing whatsoever , so if we were to take that home what we are left is whatever is been nerfed regards to AOE stuff in general tends to in return hurt the player enjoyment because consiously or subconsously at this point players now there will be no endgame in a horder , its legit not possible unless you exclude huge chınks of the game to another area and create an isolated mode where things work entirely different and there are no need for extravagant aoe .. 

Edit; also players simply (and by that i mean word to word) dont like their investment time taken away with a questionable excuse , which is understandable imo  . This especially for the players that have limited time is a huge bummer , they farm and build for months just for it to be taken away like it was nothing .

[rapt0rman]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

“Randomly”. Whatever. I’ll just wait for the source of claims.

Just to be clear, I don't care if you accuse me of being wrong, If I end up being wrong I'll admit it.

Accusing people of "excusing" something, just because they're presenting you with conflicting information, is what I have a problem with.

[Loza03]

Just now, rapt0rman said:

Just to be clear, I don't care if you accuse me of being wrong, If I end up being wrong I'll admit it.

Accusing people of "excusing" something, just because they're presenting you with conflicting information, is what I have a problem with.

You should be accurately sourcing information if you're making a claim. Or at least accepting that you don't know where you found the information, and thus to take it with a pinch of salt. This is hardly a situation for APA citations, but claiming something because you think that it happened without any proof is a fast-track to misinformation. Even if you turn out to be right.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

7 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Just to be clear, I don't care if you accuse me of being wrong, If I end up being wrong I'll admit it.

Accusing people of "excusing" something, just because they're presenting you with conflicting information, is what I have a problem with.

I don't have an issue with conflicting information if people can back it up. What I got is this:

[rapt0rman]

16 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You should be accurately sourcing information if you're making a claim. Or at least accepting that you don't know where you found the information, and thus to take it with a pinch of salt. This is hardly a situation for APA citations, but claiming something because you think that it happened without any proof is a fast-track to misinformation. Even if you turn out to be right.

I am still looking for the source (seriously guys, searching through devstream videos isn't exactly quick and easy), but as far as I'm concerned this only place I slipped up:

36 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

It was.

which I admit was out of frustration, before that they weren't even direct claims.

 

Meanwhile with the changes being undocumented, there's no proof that this is even intended (Note: not a bug, just not intended to go live)

[Surbusken]

10 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I am still looking for the source (seriously guys, searching through devstream videos isn't exactly quick and easy), but as far as I'm concerned this only place I slipped up:

which I admit was out of frustration, before that they weren't even direct claims.

 

Meanwhile with the changes being undocumented, there's no proof that this is even intended (Note: not a bug, just not intended to go live)

If your story is "innocent by intent", what's your story for the day of backdoor deconstructor nerfs? Wouldn't you agree their intent there was scamming or hiding it deliberately using patch day as a coverup?

That was just a random day they picked with nothing but the best intentions?

[rapt0rman]

11 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

If your story is "innocent by intent", what's your story for the day of backdoor deconstructor nerfs? Wouldn't you agree their intent there was scamming or hiding it deliberately using patch day as a coverup?

That was just a random day they picked with nothing but the best intentions?

Well that depends, what are you referring to? Are there undocumented changes that happened along with the documented ones?

And in general YES, the world would be a better place if people filed bug reports, or even submitted feedback, when they found undocumented changes.

[Surbusken]

11 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Well that depends, what are you referring to? Are there undocumented changes that happened along with the documented ones?

And in general YES, the world would be a better place if people filed bug reports, or even submitted feedback, when they found undocumented changes.

I am asking if your point is the developers are always innocent... and this time 'innocent by intent', that even when they make mistakes their intentions are always innocent?

If that is your story, I wanted to hear what your story was about the backdoor deconstructor nerf but we could also talk about kuva nukor being granted meta, until the very day it's time to push other 'flavour of the month' items.

That wasn't DEliberate to rake up some cash, in your world?

It was just totally random with nothing but the best intentions because the developers couldn't possibly ever do anything wrong?

 

/edit

ps. From my perspective there players are out here getting angry with eachother over balance, but it's really all DE editing notepad and DEliberately making guns meta - now what possible reason could they have to pick 'certain' weapons but not others, could it be money?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

10 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

And in general YES, the world would be a better place if people filed bug reports, or even submitted feedback, when they found undocumented changes.

Oh hey would you look at that 

 

[rapt0rman]

Ok. Cool, then this whole thread is unnecessary. 

(definitely not going to respond to that other comment)

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

Ok. Cool, then this whole thread is unnecessary. 

You mean like every other thread in general discussion? Sure.

In terms of making the community aware of undocumented changes so they can push back? I’d say not unnecessary. No one looks at Xbox bug report sections to a hugely meaningful degree.

[rapt0rman]

For the record I didn't find anything, so there ya go.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

Hell, I though this was supposed to have happened when they removed the stagger on every hit a few updates ago, but I cant find it in previous notes either.

Same here. Since that is what I recall they mentioned in the very first discussion on it.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I’d love to see a source on that. Because it was never mentioned in any “official” (devstream or forum post) to my knowledge. But hey, if you wanna excuse undocumented changes be my guest.

Meanwhile I have noticed melee nerfs in action. 

I cant find it, which makes me question the whole thing. I'm not excusing the undocumented change, I just have it in my backhead that I've heard it from DE since I went "hmm OK" and it has been stuck in the head since then. I could swear it was Scott that mentioned it in the first devstream where they discussed it.

Like I said, it should have been in the patch notes.

[ShogunGunshow]

lol what.

No, dude. DE just has never learned from their past mistakes, and it doesn't even seem like their heart is in it anymore after being bought out. Neglect, not nefariousness. 

[ReddyDisco]

frankly i didn't notice any difference, my melees were still shredding enemies in blink of an eye

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

lol what.

No, dude. DE just has never learned from their past mistakes, and it doesn't even seem like their heart is in it anymore after being bought out. Neglect, not nefariousness. 

They've been bought out since 2014 though. I think the ups and downs currently is more due to the state of the world and DE cant do the content they actually planned on, so have to nudge in other things that just havent been the intended primary focus.

Though the Tencent conspiracy theory is fun from the other poster, since it would be the most stupid move they could possibly do given what other successful games/companies they have under their wings, games that dont pull near the numbers of WF.

[(NSW)Dangruff]

13 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

What you talking about? Sarpa got murdered when 'heavy attacks' were invented. Before then, the combo counter Directly increased your melee damage for all attacks, and was not expended on use. meaning its multi bullet hits let it ramp up continuously and stay up as you shot things.

Its nowhere near as good today as it once was.

-that might have been Before warframe was even on Switch tho.... so fair that you never saw it.

 

3/4. And sarpa was mr fodder for exactly the reason you stated. Gunblades are heavy attack focus.

[Surbusken]

Just to follow up on what I was saying before, with glaives having their animation ruined, without balancing anything, during the nerfs:

 

Taken earlier today, after the "melee balance nerf", a common scenario for Glaives users.

If you notice, the guy with the most kills, has 2.5 times as many kills as me, yet I get 5.5 times as much damage as him. Then you notice they aren't doing much of melee kills.

 

This is me getting up to casual, random shenanigans using the Orvius. There are several glaives with a higher output. And I am being lazy. I am not stealing their kills to steal the damage, they had 2.5 times more kills.

On top of that, I have actually removed 2 damage mods from the Orvius, replaced with life strike and dispatch overdrive, and, I am not even a good player. I don't try for meta or worry much about optimization.

No doubt good players are far worse than me.

 

But so the straight notepad stats balance between the second best player and the Orvius is almost off by a factor of x14.

And the 2 other players had it even worse, lol.

 

All it accomplished was adding the frustrating "fail window", so the whole thing was more than just pointless, it didn't fix anything and only made the weapon feel terrible to use mechnically.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

5 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Just to follow up on what I was saying before, with glaives having their animation ruined, without balancing anything, during the nerfs:

 

Taken earlier today, after the "melee balance nerf", a common scenario for Glaives users.

If you notice, the guy with the most kills, has 2.5 times as many kills as me, yet I get 5.5 times as much damage as him. Then you notice they aren't doing much of melee kills.

 

This is me getting up to casual, random shenanigans using the Orvius. There are several glaives with a higher output. And I am being lazy. I am not stealing their kills to steal the damage, they had 2.5 times more kills.

On top of that, I have actually removed 2 damage mods from the Orvius, replaced with life strike and dispatch overdrive, and, I am not even a good player. I don't try for meta or worry much about optimization.

No doubt good players are far worse than me.

 

But so the straight notepad stats balance between the second best player and the Orvius is almost off by a factor of x14.

And the 2 other players had it even worse, lol.

 

All it accomplished was adding the frustrating "fail window", so the whole thing was more than just pointless, it didn't fix anything and only made the weapon feel terrible to use mechnically.

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the numbers

but it ?sounds like? what you're illustrating is that your Orvius is still doing High Damage, but overall you are getting less kills because the throws are Slower?

[Surbusken]

55 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the numbers

but it ?sounds like? what you're illustrating is that your Orvius is still doing High Damage, but overall you are getting less kills because the throws are Slower?

I am firstly talking about the supposed "balance" everyone keeps talking about, that the nerfs were allegedly for.

Now obviously, some weapons are better, some builds are better sure.

Ideally the factors should be as a close as possible - the relationship betwee kill and damage:

 

Player 2: 12.57

Player 3: has a factor of 15.5

Player 4: 13.78

 

Not 100% the same but really close and in the exact same range, that's balanced. It's a 16% variation in factor, at it's worse, so 84% balanced, definitely in the right ballpark.

Yeah, if one weapon were 16% stronger or the gap between melee and guns were 16%, then mission accomplished. Real close.

 

Then, Orvius: 1.01.

1:15.

 

I am carrying a weapon 15 times stronger than yours and this is not an optimized glaive, not and optimized build and not an optimized playing doing it.

Now obviously a weapon should not be notepad edited to unbalanced with 1500% lol...

 

Then after that point, in extension of, I said, since the weapon's stats are just as DEbalanced as before, it was a double shame, no, triple shame, to both ruin the feel of the weapon, waste time on the rework, and, wasting time and goodwill on a nerf, that doesn't do anything anyway.

Which I then summed up by calling it "pointless", wasted time that didn't fix anything and just add a frustrating player experience to glaives.

 

/edit.

ps. Which connects directly into "average reaction time" I am always talking about, people try to mock never having heard of it.

Which is to say input lag vs response time is an objective, set standard you have to abide by to avoid the game feeling sluggish.

They love their metrics right? Well great, because it's a universal, mathematical standard. Locked numbers.

 

Going back to notepad numbers, there is no excuse for a weapon to feel unresponsive, slow or sluggish. You can literally script a formula into the game that automates the numbers, if that is too advanced google the numbers, they have been known since the 1850's.

 

Then I will top that off, with saying it demonstrates to me a fundamental lack of understanding the player's desire to "play at their speed" vs the brain's natural output.

No one is trying to sabotage the game but saying the brain isn't stimulated when it has to sit around and wait for the game is all but for some magical reason that's just so controversial, avant garde and mindblowing to people.

 

Oh the brain has an actual speed it works at? Revolutionary!!!1

 

You don't see movies being shot at 9 frames per second do you, why is that? Is it because the brain won't accept it? Locked numbers, set in stone for 200 years and it's just amateur night now.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Try modding your Orvius for Reduced Damage, but faster Heavy Windup Speed and larger AoE

that should increase the kill rate.