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Numerous Melee Weapon Classes Recieved Undocumented Follow Through Nerfs


Message added by [DE]Saske,

Hi Tenno! This was an experimental change we tried out in development, but it should have been reverted before release.

Expect a reversal for these follow-through changes in the next Hotfix.

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7 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Also for irony, can we point out how the weapons that REALLY should have highest follow through (heavy blades, polearms, arguably scythes and whips) got the reverse?

You mean the one that happened when the first actual melee nerf happened (with melee 2.9998)?
Because follow through in the first place has only existed for some 4 patches pre old blood (iirc poe with 2nd pass on zaws or so) and wasnt a mechanic and till melee 2.9998 it was only some 5-20% damage loss per target depending on weapon category as can be seen through numerous people doing weapon showcases on youtube.

Na I mean the talk regarding the most recent melee nerfs.

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10 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Also for irony, can we point out how the weapons that REALLY should have highest follow through (heavy blades, polearms, arguably scythes and whips) got the reverse?

True, but certainly deliberate.  It's an artificial counterbalance to those weapons' longer range that gives shorter weapons some relevance in a horde game.

The best realist explanation I can come up with is it's meant to reference the possibility of enemies getting inside a weapon's reach.  But this doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  

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В 12.07.2021 в 20:51, Jarriaga сказал:

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Reb's interview.

Pablo's interview.

Dark Souls, Ni-Oh and Sekiro are power fantasies. "Power fantasy" doesn't exclusively mean "curb-stomping ants with molten aluminum" levels of one-sided enemy helplessness. 

Tho, why this thread is not closed? DE stuff already said that this was an experimental thing and they will revert it back next patch. 

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On 2021-07-13 at 4:33 PM, Loza03 said:

As you may have noticed. They are not in the game any longer. The former were, honestly speaking, hardly played even by 'Raid' standards which are always niche. And Rail Conflicts bred immense amounts of toxicity.

Actually you can parry. Block an incoming melee attack with good timing and they're left open for a finisher.

Now consider: How often do you use this feature?

 

On 2021-07-13 at 10:22 PM, --F--NerevarCM said:

Do you even play this game? When you started ? 2 weeks ago?

There is parry/riposte in the game. But why anyone would parry a single enemy while there's 200 enemies around you? Why would you parry to kill a single enemy if you can simply mash E and kill hordes with a single swing?

Solar Rails were the WORST content ever added in the game and literally made the game have DDOS attacks everytime so that the same alliances could stay in power. The gameplay was so busted that if a side had a Trinity in the team, they already won the fight. Ash could literally kill the entire map with Bladestorm without any way to prevent it.

And cooldowns ARE NERFS. Or you think having a cooldown on a Mesa or Saryn that spam abilities in the energy system will become more powerful having to wait seconds to cast the ability again after using it?

There is no timed parry/riposte system in warframe. See https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Melee#Blocking for proof. Blocking is not a guaranteed parry, and has nothing to do with timing. Its simply a chance to randomly open enemies to finishers, no different than Garas random blinding passive that does the same thing. NO SKILL INVOLVED. I was directly referring to timed/skill based parries where you manually counter each attack, like Dark Souls and Sekiro, which are 100% proc rate when timed correctly, but punish you for messing up.

And you cant just hide behind blocking infinitely in those games. Removing warframe stamina for movement was fine, but removing it for melee was a huge mistake on DE's part.

Its clear the majority of whiners here spend more time spreading false info than actually playing any games, or spending 30 seconds to google. These are the problematic players with toxic egos that ruin the experience for everyone else. Very pathetic.

On 2021-07-13 at 10:22 PM, --F--NerevarCM said:

Do you even play this game? When you started ? 2 weeks ago?

 

On 2021-07-13 at 10:22 PM, --F--NerevarCM said:

Solar Rails were the WORST content ever added in the game and literally made the game have DDOS attacks everytime so that the same alliances could stay in power. The gameplay was so busted that if a side had a Trinity in the team, they already won the fight. Ash could literally kill the entire map with Bladestorm without any way to prevent it.

Clearly Ive been playing since Solar Rails and Raids that I mentioned, it doesnt take much intelligence to realize that they werent here "two weeks ago". But as someone that doesnt know how to win Solar Rails without cheating and whined about "hackers", Im not at all surprised you didnt know about parries not being guaranteed or timing based either 🤣

 

19 hours ago, Corvid said:

Correction: Parrying is not timing-based, it's RNG-based. Outside of a couple of stagger-resistant enemies, any blocked melee attack has a chance to open up the enemy in question to a finisher, even if you've just been holding your guard up non-stop.

See some people actually pay attention and check facts before pretending to know things they do not.

If only everyone did their homework, and used their brain, perhaps this game would be in a much better state!

Then again, theres so many forgotten systems even the developers themselves have forgotten.

Maybe after almost a decade, it would be easier to just start fresh and make Warframe 2

 

On 2021-07-13 at 4:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

Pretending cooldowns can be integrated without heavy nerfs to abilities is disingenious and you most likely know it unless you're experiencing cognitive dissonance and are willingly ignoring inconvenient side-effects of what you are proposing.

 

On 2021-07-13 at 4:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

Let WF be WF. If you want for WF to copy even more stuff from Destiny then by all means go play Destiny. Nothing stops you from playing both and enjoying both for the things they do differently. You don't have to choose.

 

On 2021-07-13 at 4:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

Only if you're not thinking it through at all or if you're attempting to have your cake and eat it too by going left and right at once. You can't have it both ways.

 

On 2021-07-13 at 10:22 PM, --F--NerevarCM said:

And cooldowns ARE NERFS. Or you think having a cooldown on a Mesa or Saryn that spam abilities in the energy system will become more powerful having to wait seconds to cast the ability again after using it?

So I offered a way to rebalance the game to decrease the spam, and keep the abilities more or less the same with tweaks of course, and now you whine about that too??

After just crying for more nerfs??? PICK A SIDE PLEASE!
 

What do you want? Seriously. Offer actual feedback on how you think DE can fix the "powercreep" and broken gameplay such as "minute long stasis" and "mesa nuke"

Unless you have nothing constructive to offer and no potential ideas to fix things, you simply feel good attacking those of us that do here on the forums and clearly dont play the game

I find those that lack critical thinking skills often perceive everyone else as a threat which needs to be attacked, and are incapable of offering any value to a community. Ironically they pretend to be the smartest and best, despite always being proven wrong the rare times they share "advice" nobody asked for 🤡

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On 2021-07-13 at 10:22 PM, --F--NerevarCM said:

Do you even play this game? When you started ? 2 weeks ago?

There is parry/riposte in the game. But why anyone would parry a single enemy while there's 200 enemies around you? Why would you parry to kill a single enemy if you can simply mash E and kill hordes with a single swing?

Solar Rails were the WORST content ever added in the game and literally made the game have DDOS attacks everytime so that the same alliances could stay in power. The gameplay was so busted that if a side had a Trinity in the team, they already won the fight. Ash could literally kill the entire map with Bladestorm without any way to prevent it.

And cooldowns ARE NERFS. Or you think having a cooldown on a Mesa or Saryn that spam abilities in the energy system will become more powerful having to wait seconds to cast the ability again after using it?

But just to answer your question, Ive been playing since closed pc beta, a time when frames only had 3 abilities and mods didnt exist. Guns had skill trees. There was no powercreep, skateboards, or stuffed animals. And definitely no child soldiers or frames based on a child with hearts and rainbows.

I miss the challenge original warframe had, as a coop sequel to Dark Sector

And though MR doesnt matter, Im MR 31. So I have spent way more than 2 weeks here and have seen the rise and fall of the Dark Sector series

 

Now answer my question. You support removing content like raids and solar rail wars, so should DE remove broken frames like Mesa and Limbo?

Should DE just remove mods too? And weapons? 

Should DE remove survival because its endless? Or defense? Or capture because its so easy?

Or do you have a magical solution that doesnt completely contradict yourself, and isnt just stealing/rephrasing my idea of reducing ability spam and energy spam with cooldowns

 

Or you can admit Im actually right 🙂
 

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I really do hate it when they do stuff like this, make big changes and say nothing. These may have been accidental but they aren't the only ones.

I saw nothing on the update page about the operator energy wheel getting a different texture, or the change to operators that they now respawn with 0 energy upon death, And as someone who avidly plays operator and has all focus school powers unlocked, with 2 focus schools being fully maxed, and having all way-bound passives maxed, i tend to notice these things. Void dash feels funny too, as if its taking more energy. All of which are things that should be made obvious in large bold lettering.

Especially with "the new war" now around the corner for tennocon, which i am expecting nothing more then an orphix venom repeat, where we get locked out of 99.9% of our gear, and are forced to use the dumb corn robots, or the weak and frail operators.

Edited by Joezone619
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1 hour ago, Joezone619 said:

I really do hate it when they do stuff like this, make big changes and say nothing. These may have been accidental but they aren't the only ones.

I saw nothing on the update page about the operator energy wheel getting a different texture, or the change to operators that they now respawn with 0 energy upon death, And as someone who avidly plays operator and has all focus school powers unlocked, with 2 focus schools being fully maxed, and having all way-bound passives maxed, i tend to notice these things. Void dash feels funny too, as if its taking more energy. All of which are things that should be made obvious in large bold lettering.

Especially with "the new war" now around the corner for tennocon, which i am expecting nothing more then an orphix venom repeat, where we get locked out of 99.9% of our gear, and are forced to use the dumb corn robots, or the weak and frail operators.

Im still waiting for DE to admit they stealth-nerfed murmur gain and call it an accident 



After the Sisters update, liches filled really fast, both grineer and corpus

 

After the hotfix, now its back to how it was before the update for grineer (incredibly slow and painful) and corpus sisters are half as fast as what they were before hotfix (though still 300% faster than grineer now!)

 

Anyone with a brain, hands and eyes can test it themselves and see the major disparity between the grineer lich murmur suffering and the corpus sister tolerable grind

 

DE continues to be shady with [not] reporting changes, hiding targeted highly specific and seemingly invisible nerfs out of spite, and function under the motto "no fun allowed" (see 0.5 useless riven disposition for all weapons going forward)

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7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

So I offered a way to rebalance the game to decrease the spam, and keep the abilities more or less the same with tweaks of course, and now you whine about that too??

 

No you didn't.  This is what you said:

On 2021-07-13 at 3:34 PM, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Abilities should not be nerfed, they simply need to remake the core systems.

To which I replied:

On 2021-07-13 at 4:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

you're being willingly disingenuous by pretending abilities can be reworked into cooldowns without massive system-wide nerfs.

You said no nerfs, and then proposed cooldowns, which are nerfs.

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

and now you whine about that too??

After just crying for more nerfs??? PICK A SIDE PLEASE!
 

What do you want? Seriously. Offer actual feedback on how you think DE can fix the "powercreep" and broken gameplay such as "minute long stasis" and "mesa nuke"

I'm perfectly OK with DE further decreasing our power levels by re-doing energy economy, cooldowns, damage caps, diminished return casting mechanics, ability-immune enemies, and whatever DE feel it's needed to make the game more engaging. I'm just countering your notion that cooldowns are not nerfs, which, again, is either willingly disingenuous or cognitive dissonance. More so considering that this was your original stance:

On 2021-07-12 at 12:16 PM, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

why do the devs nerf everything in a PVE horde game?

If they want to nerf something, maybe inform the team that Sister damage reduction is 99%, yet the most recent update nerfed player damage reduction capping it to only 70%. Not fair or balanced, and feels horrible

Can we get a reversal on all player nerfs, and realize basic game design 101 is building new content that challenges players without the need to nerf existing setups and disrespect player investments? (and isnt just poorly made 99% damage reduction bullet sponge enemies with invulnerability phases!)

So are you now changing your position to acknowledge nerfs are needed considering you are offering actual feedback on how you think DE can fix the "powercreep" and broken gameplay? Or are you now gaslighting pretending you never said that before even though we can all read that post?

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Unless you have nothing constructive to offer and no potential ideas to fix things, you simply feel good attacking those of us that do here on the forums and clearly dont play the game

I find those that lack critical thinking skills often perceive everyone else as a threat which needs to be attacked, and are incapable of offering any value to a community. Ironically they pretend to be the smartest and best, despite always being proven wrong the rare times they share "advice" nobody asked for 🤡

Quite ironic coming from someone so arrogant as to think the devs don't know the definition of basic concepts tied to the game and offering to fix the game for free. Surely that doesn't mean you're pretending to be smarter and better than the devs, right?

On 2021-07-12 at 12:16 PM, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

If the team is unsure of what these concepts mean, Id be happy to apply to work for them. Id even do it for free!

I'm done here. Please feel free to have the last word if you feel like it. I'm not going to continue an argument with someone who is gaslighting,

Edited by Jarriaga
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i didnt read all the comments, but i want add this:

1: Unairu void mode: now you get 20% damage reduction (eidolon hunts nerfs) was 80%, ingame still say 80%

2: Berseker (copy pasta from wiki): (Undocumented) Stacks additively with other attack speed bonuses instead of multiplicatively.

 

 

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On 2021-07-12 at 5:41 AM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

And every new enemy that drops something new and shiny all have scaling Damage Reduction. 

Last update, we build up Necramechs because the game wouldn't let us use our Warframes.

This update, they let us bring Necramechs to the Corpus Lich fight, but it's Exalted Cannons hit as hard as an MK-1 Braton.

Our stats don't mean anything except for fodder that the game was shipped with.

DE knows the game needs a stat squish.

DE put too many damage multipliers in the game and they think they can balance it by throwing in layers of damage dividers on enemies.

You forgot the hordes of status-immune enemies that are supposed to be released with the new war, meaning status-based weapons are basically made irrelevant to the MAIN QUEST-LINE.

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1 hour ago, -Genghis_Swan- said:

You forgot the hordes of status-immune enemies that are supposed to be released with the new war, meaning status-based weapons are basically made irrelevant to the MAIN QUEST-LINE.

Status is already a questionable stat when so many status effects are capped. Unless a weapon has slash, 20% and 100% are pretty indistinguishable as any random bullet hose hits the 10 cap in seconds.

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On 2021-07-12 at 1:51 PM, Jarriaga said:

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Reb's interview.

Pablo's interview.

Also, games like Dark Souls, Ni-Oh and Sekiro are power fantasies. "Power fantasy" doesn't exclusively mean "curb-stomping ants with molten aluminum" levels of one-sided enemy helplessness. 

I take it you didn't play Dark Souls back before they nerfed the IronSkin/Greater Combustion combo, or removed the stat scaling on the Ring Shield, as both let level 1 players nuke the entire game quite easily lol

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I doubt it will ever happen, for multiple reasons, but what I think the game needs is a stat squish. Rework every numerical value in the game - weapons, abilities, mods, enemies, status procs. Lower the ceiling on many of them. Most of all, remove or heavily nerf the various multiplicative factors at play. Nerf things across the board and bring the power level disparity between a beginning player and a high-level one back to within a more reasonable range - at the moment you can go from a weapon that does 200-300 damage per hit unmodded to tens or hundreds of thousands of damage per hit fully kitted out. You can't balance that. We're just too overpowered. No AI change will fix it.

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