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[Bulletsponge Enemies] Is this supposed to be the Firearms-Buff DE was talking about?


iHeuksal
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"Slightly" aka 10% Melee nerfing (like by 200%, to be real) and buffing Prim+Sec by "90%" (more like 50%)? I'm speechless. A fully modded Tenet Flux Rifle with 200% Status Chance... no way to kill an Acolyte.

And I thought that my Kuva Zarr and such were just weak, but no. The damage reduction on these enemy types are ridiculously high, and you guys wanted us to farm those mods from Steel Path? Seriously? Regular units ain't an issue. Bombards and such still taking half to full magazine, and yet the Acolytes (and every other type of Mini-/Boss like Lich/Sister/Sister Doggos etc.) are a nightmare.

bOEewjY.png

In action:

https://i.imgur.com/r5aDzuz.mp4

This is not a challenge, mate, this is torture at its finest. Where is the promise from the past paying attention not to do such bulletsponge-content like The Division? No one likes bulletsponges which offer no challenge but miserable player experience. There is no need for tactics here. Just aim at it and hold LMB. This ain't the content we wanted. And Melee doesn't help either. Maybe a full charge Stropha, but everything else will somewhat suffer from your "10%"-nerf.

And also, "fixing important stuff" and yet leaving all Galvanized Status Mods broken. Superb priority listing.

Edited by iHeuksal
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12 minutes ago, iHeuksal said:

A fully modded Tenet Flux Rifle with 200% Status Chance... no way to kill an Acolyte.

Acolytes have a DPS cap, meaning a rapid fire weapon won't do any more direct damage than a slow firing one, but will run out of ammo fast. You'll deal more damage by removing Primed Shred. They also have a status cap of 4, meaning they are for all intends and purposes immune to a rapid fire weapons status effects (since each single one will be very weak).

The one thing that bypasses the DPS cap is high crit, which the Flux Rifle does not have. You'd be better off with a Bramma or something.

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Use the Bramma with Corrosive+ Heat, or get a railjack crewmember, give him acceltra, and train him for damage.

Then just use on-call crew when the acolytes comes.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Acolytes have a DPS cap, meaning a rapid fire weapon won't do any more direct damage than a slow firing one, but will run out of ammo fast. You'll deal more damage by removing Primed Shred. They also have a status cap of 4, meaning they are for all intends and purposes immune to a rapid fire weapons status effects (since each single one will be very weak).

The one thing that bypasses the DPS cap is high crit, which the Flux Rifle does not have. You'd be better off with a Bramma or something.

Removing Primed Shred won't do any more damage. The damage afflicted by speed is resulting into more damage per second.

22 slash damage stays the same, no matter with or without Primed Shred.

And high crit doesn't do anything better in this case. Hemocyte was a perfect example of how not to apply bulletsponge mechanics to an enemy. People figured out, high fire rate + insane amounts of multishot is melting him down - same goes for the current mini-/boss types. Here is another example how to get rid of em (applies also on Sisters and Lich):

https://i.imgur.com/biprr8B.mp4

sE4ixlm.png

This is a fully buffed Kuva Brakk. Arcane Pistoleer (5/5), Arcane Precision (5/5), Galv Buff and so on.

Thinking about the pre-melee nerf state, we haven't even had to ramp our damage output up this high. Even 2-3 Stropha charge shots were enough to delete them. Sure. That was OP, but it is not comparable to this madness.

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3 minutes ago, iHeuksal said:

Removing Primed Shred won't do any more damage. The damage afflicted by speed is resulting into more damage per second.

22 slash damage stays the same, no matter with or without Primed Shred.

This is wrong if you reached the DPS cap:

On 2021-05-19 at 12:36 PM, Traumtulpe said:

I recently had reason to explain the weird diminishing returns on DPS this game gives relevant enemies, so I recorded a comparison video to highlight it's effect. However, even I was surprised when I looked at the result:

Identical enemies, identical setup, identical (relevant) buffs, with one exception: The first clip has 120% extra fire rate from an Arcane, while the second clip had an empty Arcane slot instead.

I had my expectations, of course, what I didn't expect however, was that the clip without Arcane is 20% shorter. Yes, apparently the Arcane reduces my DPS by 20%. WTF?!

Something must have gone horribly wrong with your calculations, not for the first time, I might add. I'd really like some feedback from you on this!

Edit: Further testing revealed further cause for disappointment:

Feedback on this hard DPS cap, and the way it invalidates equipment and abilities, would still be appreciated.

Edited by Traumtulpe
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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is wrong if you reached the DPS cap:

This is why I am pointing out "BULLETSPONGE". This is "DPS cap", this is, why I say, Multishot works over Critical-Mod aspects...

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5 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

"Slightly" aka 10% Melee nerfing (like by 200%, to be real) and buffing Prim+Sec by "90%" (more like 50%)? I'm speechless. A fully modded Tenet Flux Rifle with 200% Status Chance... no way to kill an Acolyte.

And I thought that my Kuva Zarr and such were just weak, but no. The damage reduction on these enemy types are ridiculously high, and you guys wanted us to farm those mods from Steel Path? Seriously? Regular units ain't an issue. Bombards and such still taking half to full magazine, and yet the Acolytes (and every other type of Mini-/Boss like Lich/Sister/Sister Doggos etc.) are a nightmare.

bOEewjY.png

Acolytes tough? With that build? Not surprising.

Status capping of 4 and they're completely Viral proc immune, so you're barely doing anything with it but baseline damage.

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"Bullet-sponges" are in the eye of the beholder. Try picking better gun than the Flux Rifle. The Tenet version is barely any better than the base version, and the base version is one of the worst weapon in the game.

giphy.gif?cid=790b76118e38012de448fca2f4

(note the bottom right, I have the infinite ammo cheat on)

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

"Bullet-sponges" are in the eye of the beholder. Try picking better gun than the Flux Rifle. The Tenet version is barely any better than the base version, and the base version is one of the worst weapon in the game.

giphy.gif?cid=790b76118e38012de448fca2f4

(note the bottom right, I have the infinite ammo cheat on)

Sure. When using Chroma while being fully buffed. What did you expect people to learn from your gif? Infinite ammo isn't important. You can even use the Flux Rifle in this case and it wouldn't suck. Try the Bramma without Chroma. It won't do any good either. A bulletsponge is a bulletsponge, if you have to ramp up your damage output to insane values to actually overcome that "challenge".

Want a prove that Chroma makes everything better? Here you go:

https://imgur.com/ViYablu.mp4

Instead of a full bulletstorm pray and spray, just 2 1/2 mags.

10 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Acolytes tough? With that build? Not surprising.

Status capping of 4 and they're completely Viral proc immune, so you're barely doing anything with it but baseline damage.

And they are still capped damage wise. You just won't comprehend this topic, so I leave you with this alone.

Edited by iHeuksal
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5 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

And they are still capped damage wise. You just won't comprehend this topic, so I leave you with this alone.

OK. I don't feel them to be any spongier than before, while not using methods involving pure status quantity or Viral procs (since I know they don't work) so it just looked like you were overlooking crucial mechanics. Saying a Tenet Flux built for sheer proc quantity and Viral, can't kill an acolyte very well is essentially meaningless as a result.

Also, shattering their armour is both easy (very low base requiring few hits to completely remove) and works incredibly well because Sponge Path is just Sponge Path.

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I suspect some backend code was severely overtuned. I've noticed that this "damage attenuation" system applies to more than liches, it seems to be applied to all "elite" enemies, or basically anything that you can use a Mercy on and bosses. Which, honestly, is kind of terrible. Even weirder, it seems to be inconsistently applied, so some elites will still take normal damage while others will shrug off a Stahlta blast to the face, even at lower levels.

Something is probably set really incorrectly, or this is a test to force players to get accustomed to the Mercy changes. Unfortunately, this is reminding me of the numerous times Google tried to update YouTube's homepage and failed spectacularly.

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13 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

Try the Bramma without Chroma.

Don't mind if I do. Here, I will even use Inaros for you:  

https://i.imgur.com/uXOxvtd.mp4

But... hey, you used Chroma to boost your damage, showing that even Flux Rifle can shred Acolytes. That's great. It proves my point that "Bullet sponge is in the eye of the beholder". They are spongy if you pick the wrong choice, wrong combination, like a bad weapon with no damage boost. With the right one (like bad weapon with good damage boost, oor good weapon with good damage boost etc.), you can do Steel Path easily. That's the point of Steel Path. It's not a skill check. It's a gear check.  Well... bring the right gear.  

P/S: Before you asked me to try Bramma without Chroma, did you even test it first yourself? 

Edited by Bakaguya-sama
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On 2021-07-11 at 11:19 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Acolytes have a DPS cap, meaning a rapid fire weapon won't do any more direct damage than a slow firing one, but will run out of ammo fast. You'll deal more damage by removing Primed Shred. They also have a status cap of 4, meaning they are for all intends and purposes immune to a rapid fire weapons status effects (since each single one will be very weak).

The one thing that bypasses the DPS cap is high crit, which the Flux Rifle does not have. You'd be better off with a Bramma or something.

 

On 2021-07-12 at 5:03 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Acolytes tough? With that build? Not surprising.

Status capping of 4 and they're completely Viral proc immune, so you're barely doing anything with it but baseline damage.

And this whole DPS-based DR in some random incarnation and status cap crap is on the Liches as well. It really needs to go away. "Tough" enemies shouldn't boil down to sponge and trying to circumvent some random DR formula.

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1 hour ago, 60framespersecond said:

And this whole DPS-based DR in some random incarnation and status cap crap is on the Liches as well. It really needs to go away. "Tough" enemies shouldn't boil down to sponge and trying to circumvent some random DR formula.

Putting my experience during SP dailies fighting Acolytes as usual against my experience fighting damage-attenuating Liches and Sisters, I'd be very willing to say there's no, or comparatively insignificant, attenuation going on for Acolytes.

Primed up, I can still murder an Aco in the space of a single basic combo, whereas the same melee takes an eternity to scrape through the attenuated shields and health of the Adversaries.

 

That aside, I don't condone the "secret Viral immunity because we're too scared to change Viral again outright but it's too stronk" strategy DE has used for Acolytes and Cambion Drift heavies.
I also personally wouldn't mind the Acolytes being as Sponge Path tanky as they are (when not tryharding it up) if they didn't also have the cheese and massive damage overtuning to make a more open fight with them more approachable and less tempting fate.

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Am 11.7.2021 um 23:19 schrieb Traumtulpe:

Acolytes have a DPS cap, meaning a rapid fire weapon won't do any more direct damage than a slow firing one, but will run out of ammo fast. You'll deal more damage by removing Primed Shred. They also have a status cap of 4, meaning they are for all intends and purposes immune to a rapid fire weapons status effects (since each single one will be very weak).

The one thing that bypasses the DPS cap is high crit, which the Flux Rifle does not have. You'd be better off with a Bramma or something.

Wow, the one thing this update wanted to accomplish is more varity in high level gameplay - and by nature DE made the one enemy you need to hunt there factually immune to at least 2/3 of the weaponry.

I think thats the essence of DEs erratic search for an enjoyable gameplay experience.

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I don't understand their reasoning for buffing enemies in Steel Path. They are already problematic once they hit 100 in normal mode. And the Galvanized mods don't really help unless you are using like one of a very select few weapons (and I do not like being dictated what weapons and builds I should use to play games). Galvanized mods do more to help make the normal Star Chart than they are for me in Steel Path. You have to be able to kill something to even get the buff, which is a challenge with most weapons against normal level 100 enemies. Giving them massively boosted stats on top of that? Pft, part of the problem would be solved if they eliminated the stat boosts. Enemies are spongey enough at 100+ as it is.

The other problem is that the Galvanized mods don't measure up to the Melee mods that make Melee so OP because they have multilevel, hard conditional requirements rather than single level, easy conditional requirements. Condition Overload? Enemy just needs procs on it from any source. Galvanized Shot? You have to have made at least 1 kill WITH that specific weapon for the status proc condition to even activate and you need max stacks to make it even worthwhile on Steel Path, which is going to require a lot of ammo, so Ammo Mutation pretty much becomes a mandatory mod on all weapons for Steel Path. I really don't think they thought the whole thing through. People weren't using guns in high level content because of bullet sponges being easier to kill with melee and their conditions on the mods are killing bullet sponges with more difficult conditions than melee doesn't do much to close the divide and make guns more appealing for high level content.

I tried playing Steel Path again today to see if the Galvanized Mods could help a specific gun and it didn't go well and I found myself just using the gun to stack status effects for Condition Overload so I could smack enemies in the face with my Agendus a few times to kill them. They either need to kill the stat boosts and tone down Steel Path or change Galvanized mods so they are actually equal melee. I wish they'd just do Damage 3.0 already and re-balance all the weapons properly and eliminate mandatory mods so we could have better variety than like a handful of viable guns and melee as options for high level.

Edited by Ceryk
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19 hours ago, Ceryk said:

I don't understand their reasoning for buffing enemies in Steel Path. They are already problematic once they hit 100 in normal mode. And the Galvanized mods don't really help unless you are using like one of a very select few weapons (and I do not like being dictated what weapons and builds I should use to play games). Galvanized mods do more to help make the normal Star Chart than they are for me in Steel Path. You have to be able to kill something to even get the buff, which is a challenge with most weapons against normal level 100 enemies. Giving them massively boosted stats on top of that? Pft, part of the problem would be solved if they eliminated the stat boosts. Enemies are spongey enough at 100+ as it is.

The other problem is that the Galvanized mods don't measure up to the Melee mods that make Melee so OP because they have multilevel, hard conditional requirements rather than single level, easy conditional requirements. Condition Overload? Enemy just needs procs on it from any source. Galvanized Shot? You have to have made at least 1 kill WITH that specific weapon for the status proc condition to even activate and you need max stacks to make it even worthwhile on Steel Path, which is going to require a lot of ammo, so Ammo Mutation pretty much becomes a mandatory mod on all weapons for Steel Path. I really don't think they thought the whole thing through. People weren't using guns in high level content because of bullet sponges being easier to kill with melee and their conditions on the mods are killing bullet sponges with more difficult conditions than melee doesn't do much to close the divide and make guns more appealing for high level content.

I tried playing Steel Path again today to see if the Galvanized Mods could help a specific gun and it didn't go well and I found myself just using the gun to stack status effects for Condition Overload so I could smack enemies in the face with my Agendus a few times to kill them. They either need to kill the stat boosts and tone down Steel Path or change Galvanized mods so they are actually equal melee. I wish they'd just do Damage 3.0 already and re-balance all the weapons properly and eliminate mandatory mods so we could have better variety than like a handful of viable guns and melee as options for high level.

Instead of a separate node, Steel Path should have been a reskinned Dragon Key that offers the bearer special rewards at the end of a mission while acting as an Acolyte beacon instead of creating another segregated mission. 

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On 2021-07-14 at 8:50 PM, Ceryk said:

I don't understand their reasoning for buffing enemies in Steel Path. They are already problematic once they hit 100 in normal mode.

Originally it was almost purely meant as a mode for people for whom level 100 enemies were most definitely not problematic, and who wanted to face tougher content without having to deal with an hour or more of endless as a preamble.

 

4 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Instead of a separate node, Steel Path should have been a reskinned Dragon Key that offers the bearer special rewards at the end of a mission while acting as an Acolyte beacon instead of creating another segregated mission. 

That sounds like a very elegant idea.

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10 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Instead of a separate node, Steel Path should have been a reskinned Dragon Key that offers the bearer special rewards at the end of a mission while acting as an Acolyte beacon instead of creating another segregated mission. 

Not a bad idea, but there are a couple of caveats.

Spawning one-shot-happy Acolytes on newbie squads wouldn't be the best thing, and there are effects from the mixture of SP +level and modifiers that couldn't be straightforwardly replicated into a D-Key debuff on the player (such as high levels conferring greater accuracy to enemies, the spawn rates, etc)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Boo melee nerfed so hard.

I mean... my essence farming setup one shots acolytes with melee... not quite sure why people keep whining about the nerf.

Having said that the damage attenuation thing is annoying on liches and sisters.

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