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Public Lich/Sister Stabbing Refusal Solution


Voltage
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Frequently in public matches I find players who refuse to stab their nemesis ultimately wasting the squad's time as well as their own.

A mechanic that would address this without forcing players to stab Liches/Sisters is giving the squad murmurs when a player allows their nemesis to escape, but not the player who owned that nemesis. This gives no change to how not stabbing currently works while not wasting squad members' time.

I realize I already made this suggestion a year ago:

:(

Edited by Voltage
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  • Voltage changed the title to Public Lich/Sister Stabbing Refusal Solution
1 minute ago, Voltage said:

A mechanic that would address this without forcing players to stab Liches/Sisters is giving the squad murmurs when a player allows their nemesis to escape, but not the player who owned that nemesis

Wouldn’t that let me feed murmurs to people though? Get a max level and anger Lich, then just run missions letting it escape each time. You would need a premade squad though.

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Given how mine showed up on the first murmor mission and the second one i did I had a level 3 lich before even uncovering the first murmor. Feels like stabbing the lich and leveling it up at least should give you an idea of what requium it isnt, so even early stabbing can whittle down your requium mod choices

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Wouldn’t that let me feed murmurs to people though? Get a max level and anger Lich, then just run missions letting it escape each time. You would need a premade squad though.

You can fix this by having max rank nemesis lose anger for letting it escape. I find stab refusals are on low level Liches/Sisters, not Rank 4/5

Edited by Voltage
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I almost feel as if folks refuse to parazon their lich/sister they should forfeit their ability to gain murmur progress from other player's failed attempts. I always parazon my nemesis because its the polite thing to do, to give not only yourself a large chunk of murmur progression but give that to the entire team as well. Folks who don't parazon are content to leech murmurs from their teammates but refuse to give back. But I get that they don't mean to be rude. They're just afraid to level up their nemesis or think that they should wait to know all of the requiems before trying to guess but its still incredibly annoying.

Edited by xcrimsonlegendx
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En 12/7/2021 a las 22:24, Voltage dijo:

You can fix this by having max rank nemesis lose anger for letting it escape. I find stab refusals are on low level Liches/Sisters, not Rank 4/5

Sorry for the complete off-topic. Did they delete your first post on the hotfix we just got for the Tennocon hotfix? Just noticed your comment dissapeared right after I refreshed the page.

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I think they should do something and start trying different suggestions after core players farmed their guns, then adjust as needed. It can be murmurs and rage for everyone but nonstabber, or additional summons on kneeling and/or despawn, or even let other players try their own requiems on someone else's lich. Don't care, if DE really are so worried about "toxicity" then it's up to them to improve the system. The least they could do is improve mathcmaking further so premade groups don't get separated after someone progresses to another planet.

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I think a good solution for this conflict is that No Murmur is shared from stabbing a Lich.

Only Thralls/Hounds farming shall be shared.

this way there's no peer pressure on anyone to stab or not stab, before they are ready to test a new combo/have their lich level increase.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I think a good solution for this conflict is that No Murmur is shared from stabbing a Lich.

Only Thralls/Hounds farming shall be shared.

this way there's no peer pressure on anyone to stab or not stab, before they are ready to test a new combo/have their lich level increase.

Whole murmurs from stabbing thing was done to promote matchmaking and teamplay while make it less of a slog, you are suggesting to roll it backwards.

1 hour ago, Vahenir said:

Just shoot it down three times and it leaves. Problem solved, unless there are bugs.

You didn't understand what thread is about.

4 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Alternately you could, you know, just ... do it solo. 

The changes proposed here wouldn't affect your playstyle, but i wish they did so you could follow your own advice as a minority who doesn't care about the team gains.

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On 2021-07-13 at 12:21 AM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

They're just afraid to level up their nemesis or think that they should wait to know all of the requiems before trying to guess

Or don't have any words to test sequence. 

or just got a word from the mission.

Stabbing under those conditions is a waste of time.

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3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

The changes proposed here wouldn't affect your playstyle, but i wish they did so you could follow your own advice as a minority who doesn't care about the team gains.

Not sure he's minority tho, pug is for self serving players after all. Team mates are just treated like NPCs most of the time.

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Or don't have any words to test sequence. 

or just got a word from the mission.

Stabbing under those conditions is a waste of time.

I wouldn't call it a waste of time, if I don't know any requiems taking a blind stab at my lich gives me a large chunk of progress towards my next requiem. Doesn't slow me down in the slightest.

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Just now, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I wouldn't call it a waste of time, if I don't know any requiems taking a blind stab at my lich gives me a large chunk of progress towards my next requiem. Doesn't slow me down in the slightest.

anger reset, you need to do more missions to get her to show up. 

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Just now, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

anger reset, you need to do more missions to get her to show up. 

I suppose if you're trying to micro manage it for the most efficiency. I brute forced my way though about 35 sisters in the first week and got all the ephemeras/maxed the weapons without feeling like I ever needed to not stab them a single time.

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2 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I suppose if you're trying to micro manage it for the most efficiency. I brute forced my way though about 35 sisters in the first week and got all the ephemeras/maxed the weapons without feeling like I ever needed to not stab them a single time.

I got 20 sisters with 2 ephemeras on the first week. I really don't want waste a single seconds on this thing, it's already too much, one more mission extra is like a eternity to me.

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3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

Whole murmurs from stabbing thing was done to promote matchmaking and teamplay while make it less of a slog, you are suggesting to roll it backwards.

Well this whole thread about Conflict between players who want to stab vs those who don't because they're running different strategies, shows that the teamplay aspect isn't working out.

At least everyone can agree on stabbing thralls/hounds. so leave that in for the cooperative aspect, cut out the troublesome part. More happiness, less points to disagree on.

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20 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I wouldn't call it a waste of time, if I don't know any requiems taking a blind stab at my lich gives me a large chunk of progress towards my next requiem. Doesn't slow me down in the slightest.

Blind stabs can even result in quicker lich completion too, if you get lucky and have the right combo without knowing it. I've been so close to getting a lvl 1 lich (actually changed the mods before going in but if I hadn't I would have guessed right and completed lich at first encounter). You can also bypass some of the murmur grind if you guess a correct requiem before it's unlocked.

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17 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Blind stabs can even result in quicker lich completion too, if you get lucky and have the right combo without knowing it. I've been so close to getting a lvl 1 lich (actually changed the mods before going in but if I hadn't I would have guessed right and completed lich at first encounter). You can also bypass some of the murmur grind if you guess a correct requiem before it's unlocked.

My first sister I guessed the entire sequence on the first stab, actually converted her because of it.

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Wait... why would people not stab it? I've gotten lucky first-stab kills before, and now we have the Oull mod.

That makes no sense to me. I remember that being a major problem when liches first launched, but they've addressed that.

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15 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Wait... why would people not stab it? I've gotten lucky first-stab kills before, and now we have the Oull mod.

That makes no sense to me. I remember that being a major problem when liches first launched, but they've addressed that.

Because stabbing resets the aggro, which means your lich/sister wont appear for another 3 missions or so.

This can be highly undesirable if you Will Know your parazon sequence by the end of the current mission due to the Murmur gained from natural thrall/hound spawns. In that situation, you'd be better off completing the mission, slotting in the final symbol, and having their aggro stay up so you meet them again immediately.

it's kinda an edge case, if Murmur Reveals would show up in-mission the moment we gain enough Murmur, and we could reconfig right there; it would be a non-issue. But that proposal has its own baggage and would open up lots of potential abort exploits. so....

 

also bear in mind, the situation I describe above is the Logical Situation where someone might have a reason to not stab. in-game many people are Not Logical, and will invent other random, less justifiable reasons to not stab. Which makes the issue come up much more often than it really needs to.

Edited by (PSN)haphazardlynamed
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8 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Not sure he's minority tho, pug is for self serving players after all. Team mates are just treated like NPCs most of the time.

People join pub liches and sisters with a common goal of finishing them off, if you mean that as self serve then goals are aligned. There was significantly less people who didn't stab compared to stabbers, in my experience, but every time there was no stab it was a wasted time for everyone in the team. Adversary didn't leave for a long time, simply because it needs to regen hp for 3 kneelings, sometimes slow effects prolonged it even more and you don't even know if it's not stabbed because owner is unware or not. In that same time there could've been next adversary spawn or even two, all giving murmurs.

7 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

I really don't want waste a single seconds on this thing, it's already too much, one more mission extra is like a eternity to me.

Call it anecdotal, but a person from asian server claimed that in their region everyone stabs non prompted and their own adversaries average level ended up at 3.25. In absolute outlier cases which is more often happening with liches you can use ultimatums as soon as you know the sequence and rage is at the lowest.

5 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

This can be highly undesirable if you Will Know your parazon sequence by the end of the current mission

How would you know your sequence if you don't stab? You need to start guessing positions of your first requiem as soon as you get it with Oull to help you, otherwise you are wsting rage meter. I'm going to mention again that you pub to enjoy the gains from other people's stabs, think what will happen if nobody does that, and as it currently stands you are leeching of a default pub disposition, which is esentially equal to being an inaros in eso with 3 unmodded weapons, or a turret camper in rj.

7 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Well this whole thread about Conflict between players who want to stab vs those who don't because they're running different strategies, shows that the teamplay aspect isn't working out.

It's a matter of the former behavior being benefitial for team and the latter being not. So it's not working out because of people who don't stab. Yes, there are fixes proposed in this very thread.

Edited by Trvldl
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11 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

How would you know your sequence if you don't stab? You need to start guessing positions of your first requiem as soon as you get it with Oull to help you, otherwise you are wsting rage meter. 

First not everyone has Oull...its fairly rare, nor does everyone have ultimatums as again they are fairly rare (I haven't seen a drop or been in a group when one has dropped for any of my friends and we have all of the sister weapons farmed out).

Second is that I've had times where I knew the first and third word of my sequence because I know the first word is right from a stab but the second word unlocked is not the second in the sequence.  I've had missions where I've skipped stabbing my lich because "Hey I just unlocked my third word which is the second word in my sequence.  There is zero point in stabbing my lich and resetting its aggro adding another 3-5 missions onto this farm when I can just skip it and get it in the next mission immediately."

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