Public Lich/Sister Stabbing Refusal Solution

[Trvldl]

11 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

First not everyone has Oull...its fairly rare, nor does everyone have ultimatums as again they are fairly rare (I haven't seen a drop or been in a group when one has dropped for any of my friends and we have all of the sister weapons farmed out).

I have more oulls than i spend, you can also transmute them and their, as well as ultimatum's, rarity is exactly 25% per finished adversary. We also got 1 of each if we had adversaries done before.

11 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

but the second word unlocked is not the second in the sequence

Looks like a missing oull problem.

11 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

"Hey I just unlocked my third word which is the second word in my sequence.  There is zero point in stabbing my lich

An extreme outlier case, i've seen people not stabbing way before they reach third word.

I'll repeat again, you only got to your third word and this much rage meter because you enjoyed the gains from other people stabbing, now think if it will be that fast if they didn't. If you are that close to unlocking a word then finish it off solo, otherwise you relied on huge gains from pub group to unlock it from half a circle and it's a leeching behavior to not help them back. It's about overall speed for everyone, you only did it that fast because others helped you.

[Tsukinoki]

5 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

I have more oulls than i spend, you can also transmute them and their, as well as ultimatum's, rarity is exactly 25% per finished adversary. We also got 1 of each if we had adversaries done before.

Hey, lucky you!
Guess what though?  Not everyone is so lucky.

I have gotten zero oull from the game outside of the free one sent to my inbox.  That 25% chance isn't exactly "common".
I have gotten zero ultimatum's (and none of my friends have either) outside of the free ones sent to our inboxes.  Again not a "common" drop.

6 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Looks like a missing oull problem.

Exactly!
And with no easy way to get Oull!

Sure you might be able to transmute it (no idea on the chances though) and its a 25% chance to drop from getting all three words...but good luck on that.

I'm glad you have had luck on that...but just like some people -never- getting lich ephemera there are tons of people that simply don't have Oull or ultimatums that they can use.

8 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

An extreme outlier case, i've seen people not stabbing way before they reach third word.

I'll repeat again, you only got to your third word and this much rage meter because you enjoyed the gains from other people stabbing, now think if it will be that fast if they didn't.

I'm giving one reason to avoid stabbing and just down your lich instead so it goes away.

Further someone else stabbing their lich does nothing for lich anger. Its only hound/thrall stabbing.
Whether you do a lich hunt solo or in a group your lich appears every 3-5 missions as long as you take out the dogs in the mission.

[Trvldl]

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I have gotten zero oull from the game outside of the free one sent to my inbox.  That 25% chance isn't exactly "common".
I have gotten zero ultimatum's (and none of my friends have either) outside of the free ones sent to our inboxes.  Again not a "common" drop.

How many adversaries have you done and where did you spend your 3 oull charges? You can't remain unlucky forever and so far oulls just keep accumulating. That is, if you stab your nemesis because it speeds up murmur progress and lets you guess positions more often so you need less oulls overall.

10 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Further someone else stabbing their lich does nothing for lich anger. Its only hound/thrall stabbing.

I'd actually like to confirm that, pretty hard to figure without live progress mid mission. Do you perhaps join teams that don't share your lich mission nodes? I know that rage doesn't grow when you are on someone else's nodes that your adversary doesn't own.

12 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I'm giving one reason to avoid stabbing and just down your lich instead so it goes away.

I've responded with reasons why you should either stab anyway or finish the circle solo. Although if someone explains in chat that they just got third word i'll not going to say anything if they skip their lich stabbing. They are still leeching, however.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

1 hour ago, Trvldl said:

 

How would you know your sequence if you don't stab?

There's a difference between Not Stabbing Right Now

and Never Stabbing Ever.

 

From Prior Stabs it is possible to Deduce the position of all 3 symbols, while only knowing the ID of 2 of them. Mainly via process of elimination (-if lohk fails in slot one and two, then it Must be in slot 3. Then if fass worked in slot 1. the final symbol Must be slot 2, even if We don't have it revealed yet) etc.....

From that state, all you need is to ID the final one and you would have a guaranteed kill as soon as you slot it in.

 

basically by being Intelligent (yes I know this is a problem for some people), you can deduce More Information that what the game has Explicitly told you. thus saving a stab, avoiding an aggro reset, and thereby skipping a few missions needed for another lich appearance.

 

by making no logic errors it is actually possible to kill a lich in a Max of 4 Stabs. (OMG! such an insane concept! that's impossible! -only because you aren't using your head)

 

[Trvldl]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

---

*tips fedora*
I've mentioned that on asian server everyone stabs, and average adversary level for the person who claimed that was 3.25. Now try to not assume that your opponent is dumber than you without significant reasons.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Just now, Trvldl said:

*tips fedora*
I've mentioned that on asian server everyone stabs, and average adversary level for the person who claimed that was 3.25. Now try to not assume that your opponent is dumber than you without significant reasons.

I'd say your wearing a fedora is a significant reason to assume you're dumber than me.

[Trvldl]

Just now, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'd say your wearing a fedora is a significant reason to assume you're dumber than me.

No, i implied that you can as well be wearing and tipping it as you are euphoric from being enlightened by your own intelligence. Don't resort to adhoms if you have 0 additional input otherwise.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

6 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

No, i implied that you can as well be wearing and tipping it as you are euphoric from being enlightened by your own intelligence. Don't resort to adhoms if you have 0 additional input otherwise.

uhuh

no

[Trvldl]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Further someone else stabbing their lich does nothing for lich anger. Its only hound/thrall stabbing.

I tested this and you are correct, I'm conceding on this. However, every other of my arguments still stands, and current system still promotes leeching. It would benefit everyone and these topics would be simply gone if some of the solutions could be implemented.

Again, it can be improved premade team cohesion by letting people gain all progress even if their adversary is now higher level than their teammates'.

It can be additional murmurs or spawns on kneeling and/or fleeing, or even something more imaginative. Balancing can be worked out later.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

23 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

 current system still promotes leeching.

Indeed, there is too much leeching. I get all the squadmates who want me to Stab and FAIL, just so they can leech off the murmer consolation prize.

This is a totally backwards situation that has emerged, the goal of stabbing your lich is to make your Best Effort at the Correct Sequence, not go off half cocked with a bunch of wrong stabs.

People stab spamming even when they have no clue of what their parazon symbols are is just an exploit strategy. There should be No Reward for Failure.

-make stab fails give No Murmur, the Thralls/Hounds should be your primary source as was intended when the lich system was first created.

[Trvldl]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

---

The only response i have to people like you would make me banned. I'd wish to see your cipher stats, but you aren't on pc.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

People join pub liches and sisters with a common goal of finishing them off, if you mean that as self serve then goals are aligned. There was significantly less people who didn't stab compared to stabbers, in my experience, but every time there was no stab it was a wasted time for everyone in the team. Adversary didn't leave for a long time, simply because it needs to regen hp for 3 kneelings, sometimes slow effects prolonged it even more and you don't even know if it's not stabbed because owner is unware or not. In that same time there could've been next adversary spawn or even two, all giving murmurs.

11 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

How can you tell if your teammate is a stabber or non-stabber? Just because he stabbed his lich doesn't mean he will stab them every time no?

You can't know if stabber is majority or not without track players activity, and my post was about self serving being majority, not non stabber.

I just consider ppl that don't stab their lich as the same as ppl whose lich didn't show up. It's just bad luck that's all.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

3 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

First not everyone has Oull...its fairly rare, nor does everyone have ultimatums as again they are fairly rare (I haven't seen a drop or been in a group when one has dropped for any of my friends and we have all of the sister weapons farmed out).

Second is that I've had times where I knew the first and third word of my sequence because I know the first word is right from a stab but the second word unlocked is not the second in the sequence.  I've had missions where I've skipped stabbing my lich because "Hey I just unlocked my third word which is the second word in my sequence.  There is zero point in stabbing my lich and resetting its aggro adding another 3-5 missions onto this farm when I can just skip it and get it in the next mission immediately."

rare??? im only on sister six and have 3 full 1s and used the free one up...

[OwlOfJune]

Maybe there could be half-stab option where it just makes it go away, but gives half murmur. To stop abusing it make it unable to do it constructive?

[FrostDragoon]

The bigger problem I've encountered with people refusing to stab is that they then bolt for extraction so nobody else gets their lich to spawn. Let's also not forget that this behavior was promoted by certain Youtubers as a way to game the system. I know DE loves to RNG literally everything ever, but I think the solution here is to remove some of the RNG factors from the farm--have a fixed number of murmers for progression, accelerate the rage/kill for the lich, and guarantee a spawn in a mission if his rage level exceeds his planetary tier--and "derage" him if they refuse to stab. Then put tier minimums on the requiem/murmer progress:

1st at Tier 1-2

2nd at Tier 3-4

3rd at Tier 5+

Also, remove this "fleeing to Proxima" horsecrap. Newer players (usually MR 10-16) used to be able to farm these guys after completing War Within. Now they *also* have to build their Railjack, which isn't a clear process at all, can't be rushed, and can only be MTX'd to skip. It's an obvious and horrible cash grab on top of the unnecessary gate-keeping and the pointless extra step for content they don't belong in. On the same note, remove the requirement of Granum Void for Sisters. This was downright bone-headed for "lore" reasons, but is wildly mismatched with the Kuva liches.

 

Basically, this system was a lot better before this last major update than now and instead of fixing existing issues, they made them worse.

[Tsukinoki]

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

I'd actually like to confirm that, pretty hard to figure without live progress mid mission. Do you perhaps join teams that don't share your lich mission nodes? I know that rage doesn't grow when you are on someone else's nodes that your adversary doesn't own.

The way I've figured this is that either solo, or in a full squad of 4 other people all stabbing their liches (me and a few friends) we found that the sisters spawned every 3-5 missions regardless as long as you stabbed all the hounds.

Didn't matter if we did it solo so had no one else stabbing their liches to make ours angrier potentially.
Didn't matter if we did it in a group and stabbed every sister that appeard as soon as we killed the hound they brought.
it was roughly every 3-5 missions with little variation.

Sure there were some that took longer and some that spawned after 1 mission but that happened only two or three times across me and my friends getting all of the sister weapons, and for a chunk of us some duplicates for valence fusion.

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

How many adversaries have you done and where did you spend your 3 oull charges?

I spent Oull on getting some of the initial set of the sister weapons just to get it done with when I new the order but didn't have the second word.
Didn't take long to get through all 3 charges.

I've personally killed 22 sisters.
Zero Oulls, Zero ultimatums.
They just aren't dropping for me.

45 minutes ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

rare??? im only on sister six and have 3 full 1s and used the free one up...

Good for you then!
I've killed 22 and have gotten zero Oulls and zero ultimatums.

They aren't super common.

So good for you that you get them to drop commonly.

[Trvldl]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

The way I've figured this is that either solo, or in a full squad of 4 other people all stabbing their liches (me and a few friends) we found that the sisters spawned every 3-5 missions regardless as long as you stabbed all the hounds.

Didn't matter if we did it solo so had no one else stabbing their liches to make ours angrier potentially.
Didn't matter if we did it in a group and stabbed every sister that appeard as soon as we killed the hound they brought.
it was roughly every 3-5 missions with little variation.

Sure there were some that took longer and some that spawned after 1 mission but that happened only two or three times across me and my friends getting all of the sister weapons, and for a chunk of us some duplicates for valence fusion.

As i've responded before, you assumption was correct. I tested with 2 fresh liches by doing a single mission and checking rage gains, one lich in pub and one solo. Same progress on rage bar, 10 thralls killed in each mission, but in pub a lich was also stabbed.

It'll still be benefitical for everyone if proposed changes are made, much less pressure in case you'll want your nemesis to flee while still providing anticipated progress for group.

2 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

How can you tell if your teammate is a stabber or non-stabber? Just because he stabbed his lich doesn't mean he will stab them every time no?

You can't know if stabber is majority or not without track players activity, and my post was about self serving being majority, not non stabber.

Didn't stab — leeching. Out of all my new sister and lich gun runs i've seen less than 10 instances of skipping stab. Every time it just made mission prolong uselessly and overall annoying, especially when owners didn't say anything in chat and you don't know if you should camp nemesis to dps and slow them with abilities or not. Reminder, that in asian client people stab without being prompted to do so.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

55 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Didn't stab — leeching. Out of all my new sister and lich gun runs i've seen less than 10 instances of skipping stab. Every time it just made mission prolong uselessly and overall annoying, especially when owners didn't say anything in chat and you don't know if you should camp nemesis to dps and slow them with abilities or not. Reminder, that in asian client people stab without being prompted to do so.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same topic. 

my point: 

A. there are reasons other than not level lich or get all three words to not stab.

B. Self serving player is majority in pug

that's all. 

[Venus-Venera]

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb OwlOfJune:

Maybe there could be half-stab option where it just makes it go away, but gives half murmur. To stop abusing it make it unable to do it constructive?

certainly not! after 3x kill, lich should get the same buff as in SP and also 100% damage in addition to +1 level. so that the leecher will switch on his brain next time. and ONLY the other 3 get +10 murmur!

1 clown shouldn't spoil the other 3's fun.

[Trvldl]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

I don't think you and I are talking about the same topic. 

my point: 

A. there are reasons other than not level lich or get all three words to not stab.

B. Self serving player is majority in pug

that's all. 

I've already said that peple join pub liches/sisters with a common goal of finishing them off as soon as possible. If that's not your goal and you still join, then most likely you are a griefer or a leech. Going towards common goal while recieving team benefits and giving back is teamplay, people who don't stab don't give back what's expected from them. If still not clear: people who don't stab are more self-serving than people who do. You are expecting to get a boost over people who stab by collecting gains from them without providing back.

The topic is about additions that would benefit everyone, regadless of reasons. I don't see how what you are saying goes against the idea. In short, you didn't add any reason to not implement the changes.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

1 minute ago, Trvldl said:

I've already said that peple join pub liches/sisters with a common goal of finishing them off as soon as possible. If that's not your goal and you still join, then most likely you are a griefer or a leech. Going towards common goal while recieving team benefits and giving back is teamplay, people who don't stab don't give back what's expected from them. If still not clear: people who don't stab are more self-serving than people who do. You are expecting to get a boost over people who stab by collecting gains from them without providing back.

 

But I do want to finish it as soon as possible, that's the only reason I don't stab all the time...Also what do you think about players that have a low anger level lich, they know their lich is not gonna show up but they still join pug, hoping others will. By your definition that's also leeching.

7 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

The topic is about additions that would benefit everyone, regadless of reasons. I don't see how what you are saying goes against the idea. In short, you didn't add any reason to not implement the changes.

I know, I did not reply to OP, and I was never against this change. The first post I made is to another reply about reasons not stabbing leech, it was never about the changes. 

It's not like my purpose was to gimp other players murmur gain, it's just unfortunate side effect.

[Trvldl]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

But I do want to finish it as soon as possible, that's the only reason I don't stab all the time...

Is that some PlayStation thing?

5 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Also what do you think about players that have a low anger level lich, they know their lich is not gonna show up but they still join pug, hoping others will. By your definition that's also leeching.

I considered this, but the not showing up part is only applicable to 0 rage, and it still doesn't take spawn slot if it doesn't spawn at all. It is expected to have people with no rage meter in missions, everyone goes through that, and you pay for that by stabbing your damn lich when it actually spawns. By not stabbing lich you are using pubs to get more murmurs even at 0 rage while not giving back, unlike people who choose to stab. Leeching is taking without giving back what's expected by default.

15 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

I know, I did not reply to OP, and I was never against this change.

It's not like my purpose was to gimp other players murmur gain, it's just unfortunate side effect.

Not unfortunate if it's your choice to do so. At least you made it clear that you aren't trying to prevent improvements.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

9 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Is that some PlayStation thing?

Ok you probably missed my original post.

I don't stab because

1. I got 0 word need to test the sequence 

        This never happens, specially with hounds giving so much murmur. And come to think of it, if I'm one sister stab away to unlock a word, I'll probably do it and just use a beacon at the next mission. (Given that I have one)

2. I just got a word from that mission. 

        It rarely happens, but if it does, it's a waste of time (mine) to stab it. Cus now with OULL, you only need 2 words to kill a lich, and you stab lich more for the sequence than the murmur. So if I stab the lich, I won't find out where the word should be, but anger meter reset, I need to play 2 or 3 mission to get the lich show up again. That's 5 to 7 loading screen time(no SSD) and 2 or 3 mission time(good lord). Or I can just get a lvl 1 lich down 3 times, and he will show up on the next mission guaranteed. That's waaaaay faster, for me that is. So it's between huge chunk of my time and a small chunk of my teammates' time, well....Like I said to another user, I'm 20 sisters in with 2 ephemera, that shet is discouraging and exhausting, even one capture mission is too much for me...

 

Beside this 2 scenario I'll stab the living shet out the lich.

41 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

you pay for that by stabbing your damn lich when it actually spawns.

39 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

By not stabbing lich you are using pubs to get more murmurs even at 0 rage while not giving back

No one can kill a lich without stabbing it sooner or later, only ppl not giving back is the ones that get 3 words by pure murmur farming in pug, then go into solo every time he think his lich is about to show up. That's hela weird, and pain in the ass for himself as well.

44 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Not unfortunate if it's your choice to do so. At least you made it clear that you aren't trying to prevent improvements.

It's my choice sure, but it's luck to put me in that situation so I have to make that choice. Not like I planned it from the start.

Trust me, I don't want my lich to show up when I know I won't stab him. Just like you said, it's also a waste of time, but it is what it is. You know lich not gonna show up when anger is zero, and you know lich will show up when anger is max. Anything in between is out of our control. 

If some how a rock is coming at me, I dodged and it hit the person behind me, do you blame me for dodging? 

[Hobie-wan]

Eh, I just stab and keep going every time now. I think people just need to unlearn the waiting strategy that had more merit previously when there were a lot more murmurs to collect. he lich process is so much faster than before. With the consolidation of the progression and kill nodes, it's really easy to get a pub group immediately (at least on PC) even at 4 AM. I'm sure this will slow down a bit to where one might wait a few minutes or need to advertise for a group but it still shouldn't be too hard to get help if one can't handle lich stuff solo or is still learning. There are enough players that it seems rather unlikely to end up with a pub completely full of people new to liches that can't handle the missions with just a sprinkle of teamwork going on.

[Trvldl]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

2. I just got a word from that mission. 

If you just got a word from mission then you were either close enough to unlock it in one solo run or significantly relied on pub gains, in which case you stab. You scratch my back, i scratch yours.

If you like sophistry for the sake of sophistry then it's no wonder that straightforward concepts aren't your thing.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

only ppl not giving back is the ones that get 3 words by pure murmur farming in pug, then go into solo every time he think his lich is about to show up. That's hela weird, and pain in the ass for himself as well.

Don't know what sort of situation you are referecing, you go solo when you are about to unlock a word, not just because lich might spawn.

57 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

If some how a rock is coming at me, I dodged and it hit the person behind me, do you blame me for dodging? 

Bad analogy. A rock comes at your team and everyone is supposed to stop it together, but at the last moment you step back and put the burden on everyone else.