Please change rad proc

[Godmode_Ash]

17 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... This whole thing is going out the window... So, I gotta ask before I add any kind of feedback here about it...

 

... What change to radiation are you exactly asking here?

Try to reduce your answer to a single word.

removefriendlyfire

[Uhkretor]

18 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

removefriendlyfire

... Nice try...

 

No.

Doing so removes the purpose of radiation, which is causing IFF confusion and its directly related consequences.

[Godmode_Ash]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Nice try...

 

No.

Doing so removes the purpose of radiation, which is causing IFF confusion and its directly related consequences.

You asked for a single word so that was the best I could give you. You should read the entire thread then.

[Uhkretor]

4 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

You should read the entire thread then.

I did, which is why I said

46 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... This whole thing is going out the window...

Your attempt at reducing it all into a single word was a nice try, and I wasn't sarcastic about it... And it worked because you directly said what change you were asking for...

 

... But its still a "No" from my part.

... People need to understand that the LoS detection is made with an AI process... If the AI has its IFF scrambled, anyone could, should and will cause friendly fire. Its a direct consequence...

And I know that many know about it, but they simply do not care and keep blasting away regardless of consequences...

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

First of all, can a sister's weapon proc rad effect on players? I have not seen it so I haven't consider that possibility.

I have only seen players getting rad proc from sortie(rad cloud) or lich/sister abilities(grass AOE). Those types of attacks are easily avoidable, and it would be players' own fault if they get rad debuff from those situation. There's plenty of sound and telegraph for warning, and even a mod like Rolling Guard to clear the debuff. So if rad effect causes damage reflection and players dying from those, they shouldn't be complaining.

I can guarantee that sister/lich weapons can proc radiation.

I was fighting a fire lich made by protea and was playing Inaros.  The lich had a detron and hit me and I got radiation.   I fired off the Envoy I was leveling and accidentally killed a friend because I had fired exactly when I got procced and didn't have a chance to go "Wait a minute...."  And again this was a fire element lich so no radiation abilities.
It also happened a few times with the Tenet Arca Plasmor when I was just meleeing the sister and killed a friend because I got rad procced and they happened to be standing too close.  I was in the middle of a combo and had absolutely zero feedback that I was procced until my friend died.

And that's the biggest problem with your idea:
Any weapon that has radiation (either innate, or if it was a fire weapon given electricity damage or the other way around) can proc radiation on players with zero warning or telegraph.
If there was feedback or warning of "Hey radiation incoming" that would be something.  But the problem is that their weapons can and will proc radiation.

This just leads to pure frustration.  Especially if your idea was in place and I was solo meleeing a sister I would just suddenly fall over dead with zero warning or telegraph or anything.  And I wouldn't even have the debuff icon to point out what happened.

 

Your idea turns radiation procs from:
Hey be careful (if you notice in time)
Into:
Sit there and twiddle your thumbs until it goes away as you are unable to do anything without killing yourself!!!! Even if solo!

It's just not a good idea.

[Godmode_Ash]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I did, which is why I said

Your attempt at reducing it all into a single word was a nice try, and I wasn't sarcastic about it... And it worked because you directly said what change you were asking for...

 

... But its still a "No" from my part.

... People need to understand that the LoS detection is made with an AI process... If the AI has its IFF scrambled, anyone could, should and will cause friendly fire. Its a direct consequence...

And I know that many know about it, but they simply do not care and keep blasting away regardless of consequences...

My suggestion was to remove friendly fire because it is a dumb component that encourage trolls abuse and lazy play(not paying attention). I suggested change friendly fire to damage reflection because it is the closest thing to the current radiation proc. The only difference is now if you make the mistake, you blow yourself up instead of team-wipe. Also I am only talking about rad proc on players, I am not suggesting any change on rad proc on NPC. 

I am not understand about the "LoS detection" and "AI process" you brought up. Are you saying DE can't code that?

I am just tired of idiot teammates, and I am sure many would agree with me.

[Godmode_Ash]

29 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I can guarantee that sister/lich weapons can proc radiation.

I was fighting a fire lich made by protea and was playing Inaros.  The lich had a detron and hit me and I got radiation.   I fired off the Envoy I was leveling and accidentally killed a friend because I had fired exactly when I got procced and didn't have a chance to go "Wait a minute...."  And again this was a fire element lich so no radiation abilities.
It also happened a few times with the Tenet Arca Plasmor when I was just meleeing the sister and killed a friend because I got rad procced and they happened to be standing too close.  I was in the middle of a combo and had absolutely zero feedback that I was procced until my friend died.

And that's the biggest problem with your idea:
Any weapon that has radiation (either innate, or if it was a fire weapon given electricity damage or the other way around) can proc radiation on players with zero warning or telegraph.
If there was feedback or warning of "Hey radiation incoming" that would be something.  But the problem is that their weapons can and will proc radiation.

This just leads to pure frustration.  Especially if your idea was in place and I was solo meleeing a sister I would just suddenly fall over dead with zero warning or telegraph or anything.  And I wouldn't even have the debuff icon to point out what happened.

 

Your idea turns radiation procs from:
Hey be careful (if you notice in time)
Into:
Sit there and twiddle your thumbs until it goes away as you are unable to do anything without killing yourself!!!! Even if solo!

It's just not a good idea.

About the lich/sister weapon rad proc, perhaps DE should just disable it against player. If lich/sister weapons can constantly apply rad to a player non-stop, no wonder teams were dying left and right.

About the rad warning I mentioned. When you get into toxic cloud, you don't hear the radioactive ticking sound(similar to stalker game)? When you see grass on the ground similar to Oberon Hallowed Ground, isn't that telegraph? Both examples are super obvious, I am not sure why you argued with me saying there were no warning. Debuff doesn't apply instant either, you can get a few tick before you move.

The whole point is I don't want idiots to kill me or mission objective, and my suggestion would solves those issues. The current rad proc doesn't have consequence for those that gets rad debuff and someone else is paying for their mistake instead.

[Uhkretor]

8 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

My suggestion was to remove friendly fire because it is a dumb component that encourage trolls abuse and lazy play(not paying attention).

I'm sorry, but the entire game implies lazy play, otherwise there would be no AoE weapons and abilities.

8 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I suggested change friendly fire to damage reflection because it is the closest thing to the current radiation proc.

Its not, and you know it.

Damage reflection has nothing to do with its IFF Confusion mechanic or any kind of similar effects in any game, not just Warframe... and you know it.

10 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Also I am only talking about rad proc on players, I am not suggesting any change on rad proc on NPC.

Oh, everyone understood that part, including me... but

12 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

if you make the mistake, you blow yourself up.

The majority is telling you "NO" exactly for ^THIS^ reason. Radiation gimmick is the IFF Confusion and how it affects the environment which, funnily enough, includes players.

13 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I am not understand about the "LoS detection" and "AI process" you brought up.

Of course you didn't. You should learn about it before proceeding with this suggestion...

14 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Are you saying DE can't code that?

... Of course they can code that, and its already been in the game for years...

... Exactly how can you use stuff correctly without having minor understanding of simple systems is completely mind blowing...

16 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I am just tired of idiot teammates, and I am sure many would agree with me.

Oh, everyone agrees with you there. However, you're pretty much one of the few that comes to the forum and suggest ideas, and a poorly thought one, instead of simply using what already exists ingame that many people are using instead...

... Its a known system called "Matchmaking", which can be set from Public to anything else besides Public... And completely solves your problems... And best of all, its just a two-click step...

... If your equipment is, or feels, insufficient, review your builds... It usually helps more than poorly thought ideas... This includes Warframe builds because the caked builds you find online will always get you 1-shot by other players whenever they get rad proc'd.

A good Warframe build will not get you 1-shot by rad proc'd players.

 

Now, you might either think about or say "At least I had an idea"... And its true, at least you had an idea... That a solid majority is saying "no" to...

But this idea isn't the first time that appeared. It has been appearing since years ago, from different players, and yet the same IFF confusion mechanic remains even though status effects were changed and adapted recently... This is DE's way of saying "Radiation's gimmick is confusion and has to affect the environment equally for that status effect to be relevant."

 

... You already have a solution implemented ingame already, and it doesn't involve going exclusively Solo. The only thing it involves is its use, and its always a two-click step...

[Godmode_Ash]

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Damage reflection has nothing to do with its IFF Confusion mechanic or any kind of similar effects in any game, not just Warframe... and you know it.

Why are you so stuck on IFF confusion? My intention was to change the mechanic for a better gameplay. But if you want to play the word game, if a crazy person is confused and shot himself. Isn't that the same effect as damage reflect? Would that scenario fit the "confusion" description?

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

The majority is telling you "NO" exactly for ^THIS^ reason. Radiation gimmick is the IFF Confusion and how it affects the environment which, funnily enough, includes players.

Majority of what? In this thread, I counted 5 supported changing on rad, 3 posted random stuff, and 4 against this idea. Out of the 4 against my idea, 1 of them was a troll said "its fun."

It's a bad gimmick just like the old Limbo, host DC abusing, and many other changes has DE done. DE changed those issues because some players abused it, and others couldn't stand it. From what I have seen this TK issue is getting out of the hand, enough people complain on forum already.

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Of course you didn't. You should learn about it before proceeding with this suggestion...

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... Exactly how can you use stuff correctly without having minor understanding of simple systems is completely mind blowing...

Would be more helpful if you actually explain instead of being condescending.

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... Its a known system called "Matchmaking", which can be set from Public to anything else besides Public... And completely solves your problems... And best of all, its just a two-click step...

Already mentioned in my earlier post that this is a COOP game, and lich/sister farming would be 10x longer in solo. If a player has to hide in solo to avoid meeting idiots or troll, then perhaps there is something wrong in that rad gimmick.

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

.. If your equipment is, or feels, insufficient, review your builds... It usually helps more than poorly thought ideas... This includes Warframe builds because the caked builds you find online will always get you 1-shot by other players whenever they get rad proc'd.

Why focusing on the players who get kill? Shouldn't you question about the killers and try to prevent it?

Unless you play Inaros or few select tanky frame, most of time you are going to get one-shot. Exactly the same reason why Cautious Shot didn't work. Players were doing too much damage, even 10% of damage could still kill the player.

And what if I want to play Nyx for support? Why am I force to play tank to avoid TK?

 

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

But this idea isn't the first time that appeared. It has been appearing since years ago, from different players, and yet the same IFF confusion mechanic remains even though status effects were changed and adapted recently... This is DE's way of saying "Radiation's gimmick is confusion and has to affect the environment equally for that status effect to be relevant."

Before the sister update the team kill wasn't this absurd. If enough people complain, DE might change it. Why defending bad mechanic?

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2021-07-14 at 2:05 AM, Godmode_Ash said:

Rad proc on players used to be exclusive to Sortie enemy modifier.

[Laughs in playing since before Sorties existed]

Rad procs have always been a thing, back when long runs in the Void were the literal meta for earning Plat, getting Primes and just having respect for being a high level player. You did not run through the Void without checking every single time to see if your team members hadn't accidentally, or even on purpose, tripped a laser and were about to Ash 4 you to death, or similar.

And guess what? This was the reason that all of you got free Revives with every mission, instead of having 4 per day and having to pay Platinum to top them up. Because back then you could almost force a player to spend Platinum (or stop playing for the day) just by purposefully walking through a Void Laser. Leave them in Spectator mode for an entire survival mission, just so they didn't lose the rewards they'd actually earned so far, unable to do anything, because you'd killed them and they couldn't revive anymore.

Oh, those were the bad-old-days... sure enough...

And sure, Sorties brought the Radiation Hazard in, but before that there was Friendly Fire mode on the Nightmare modes (which was a little more forgiving, some abilities didn't hit allies even with Friendly Fire on, like World on Fire).

Radiation Liches had their ability to give us procs before Sisters existed, too.

There have been threads like this since the invention of the Confusion status. And there will be many more. You won't get them to take this away as it's one of the very few statuses that genuinely still affects the players in a meaningful way.

[Godmode_Ash]

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You won't get them to take this away as it's one of the very few statuses that genuinely still affects the players in a meaningful way.

Change the effect to damage reflect will make it even more meaningful. Player will actually care as it become their own problem.

[PO41089]

The easy fix is to make Rad procs so you be damaged by allies only. You are the one with the status so you should be the only one punished by it, not your teammates. 

[Godmode_Ash]

4 hours ago, PO41089 said:

The easy fix is to make Rad procs so you be damaged by allies only. You are the one with the status so you should be the only one punished by it, not your teammates. 

This I would also support.

Personally I just think damage reflect is funny and more appropriate, but at least this suggestion is on the same direction to solve the TK issue.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Change the effect to damage reflect will make it even more meaningful. Player will actually care as it become their own problem.

Except that makes literally no sense. To anyone.

Why does a radiation proc cause damage you deal out to be reflected back to you? Specifically hen that's already a status that exists in the game, and is inflicted on us by one of the Acolytes?

There's two points against this concept:

1. Despite there still being one enemy, just one, on a game mode that's designed to be higher level than the base star chart, and only appears as an RNG one of about seven potential enemies like him... despite that, DE have deliberately removed self-damage from the game in all other instances and causes.

2. Friendly fire can be completely avoided while solo, and has literally no consequences while in a group due to the limitless access to team revives (invulnerable children are a hell of a trip), plus access to companion mods that will revive you, and free, per-mission set of up to six personal revives too. Compare that to a self-damage proc which is only a problem when Solo, and just as consequence free when running in a team, if not more so.

Radiation is not meant to be a limit on a single player.

Radiation has no meaning to a solo player.

Radiation is supposed to be a team problem, it's supposed to affect the team more than the player, causing disruption on a team-wide level, and it always has been that way.

Making it a personal problem that is only a personal problem when Solo, and barely more than an 'oops' on Public, would make it even less meaningful.

Because you missed the point of why it's a meaningful Status in the first place.

[Godmode_Ash]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Except that makes literally no sense. To anyone.

Makes perfect sense to me, and to those others who dislike getting team kill.

Friendly fire is the part that makes no sense. Why am I getting kill by teammates when I have done absolute nothing wrong in my gameplay? Death should be a penalty if one makes mistake. So what am I being punish for?

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why does a radiation proc cause damage you deal out to be reflected back to you? Specifically hen that's already a status that exists in the game, and is inflicted on us by one of the Acolytes?

If you read the entire thread, then you would understand my beef is with the friendly fire. If rad proc is change into something else other than damage reflect. I am fine with it. I only suggested damage reflect because it encourage everyone to pay attention to their own debuff since it become his own problem.

Someone else suggested "make rad debuff only receive damage from another player." Do you support that idea?

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

1. Despite there still being one enemy, just one, on a game mode that's designed to be higher level than the base star chart, and only appears as an RNG one of about seven potential enemies like him... despite that, DE have deliberately removed self-damage from the game in all other instances and causes.

You against self damage, but you support friendly fire? Makes no sense to me. 

You can easily control self-damage, all you need to do is to pay attention and play smart. But it's incredibly harder to counter teammates' friendly fire. It's something very unavoidable and unpredictable.

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

2. Friendly fire can be completely avoided while solo, and has literally no consequences while in a group due to the limitless access to team revives (invulnerable children are a hell of a trip), plus access to companion mods that will revive you, and free, per-mission set of up to six personal revives too. Compare that to a self-damage proc which is only a problem when Solo, and just as consequence free when running in a team, if not more so.

First of, why should players receive TK then expect to be revive? Why not just remove friendly fire so players don't get TK in the first place. Why a redundant mechanic?

At the same time you are pushing the problem away into solo mode, very unhealthy thinking for a co-op game. Attitude like this is why we have so many bad design and bad mechanic pile up in all these years. Keep band-aiding problems instead of actually fixing it.

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Radiation is supposed to be a team problem, it's supposed to affect the team more than the player, causing disruption on a team-wide level, and it always has been that way.

Making it a personal problem that is only a personal problem when Solo, and barely more than an 'oops' on Public, would make it even less meaningful.

Even if rad was originally designed to create for team problem and disruption, it doesn't effect the team but only a few players. Majority of the content are too easy to begin with. Regardless how many team death, the team is still going to clear the content. There are no consequence other than those who get killed will feel annoyed. VERY few occasions objective gets destroy. So labeling radiation as a team mechanic is a poor excuse.

If a player got rad debuff and kill the entire team, would he lose anything? Of course not. So then why would the player stop TK or care? The whole point of removing friendly fire is to remove the penalty on innocent teammates, and punish those who are not paying attention(got debuff), regardless what method.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

So labeling radiation as a team mechanic is a poor excuse.

Except that's literally what it's labelled as, by the developers, who told us about it when they reworked Elementals to give us Combined Elements. They specifically told us that the down-side of this elemental status is that it works on us too, and we're more dangerous than the enemy.

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

If a player got rad debuff and kill the entire team, would he lose anything? Of course not. So then why would the player stop TK or care?

Ahh, so what you're saying is not that the proc is bad, it's that people are bad and don't care if they kill their team?

Because that's what you're complaining about.

A player that kills their team loses their support and often the mission, or gets taken down themselves, because they're now alone. A player that team kills on purpose has nobody to support them when they go down. In point of fact, this whole discussion was literally had back when Radiation procs became a thing and you know what? People sorted it out themselves. They team killed right back, or froze out the player by not doing anything to help them, or just left the mission (which is way easier to do now that individual extracts are a thing).

You have options to deal with butt-hat players already.

Forgetting them because the radiation proc became less common in everyday play just means you can re-learn those options.

Finally:

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

You against self damage, but you support friendly fire? Makes no sense to me. 

You seem to have completely mis-read that comment.

It was a solid 'Appeal to Authority' argument. DE support friendly fire, but not self damage.

Why? Because the community, a large and vocal part of the community, don't support self damage and asked consistently to change that. Because we self-delete with even the hint of an AoE weapon. Further than that, self-damage was also used in exploits, like the infinitely scaling Trinity functions.

It's something that DE do not want in the game.

You and I have absolutely no say in that.

But what I can tell you is that, unless changes happen and are reversed in a matter of three months after the change (the 'patch window'), DE have never reverted a change on that kind of level after it's been in the game past the patch window.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2021-07-14 at 3:05 AM, Godmode_Ash said:

Instead of confusing stats that enable friendly fire, please change radiation effect to damage reflection back to the player.

I like the current effect, but your suggestion makes a lot of sense and seems like it may be better for the game. Players killing defense objectives (on purpose or not) isn't really ideal.

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

"make rad debuff only receive damage from another player."

This seems even better, preserving much of the current function of the proc while removing some unwanted aspects.

[(PSN)Etheral_Synergy]

On 2021-07-14 at 7:50 AM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are countermeasures feasible? There's Arcane Healing and Rapid Resilience.

🤔 Could this increase in Radiation challenges be a small push for non-AoE weapons for players who care about defense objectives and not killing their team?

I don't find the friendly fire such a problem, but if team-killing trolls could get the short end of the stick as well, I'd be for that

The only solution I've found is just protective dashing team mates during the entire fight as it seems to possible still affect even rad procced team mates unlike other supportive abilities. There's alot of status cleanse/immunity conclave augment mods that rotate in nightwave too, though even embers one on allies that touch fireblast its only 4 seconds of immunity.

Another trick I learnt from an old friend is a mesa with shatter shield active does exactly OPs proposed change lol, gun damage deflected back to the attacker.

Also It's less trolls and more:

some players rely on melee for bosses and are impossible not to hit
some players live and die by the ignis/bramma which will hit everyone
Mesa's 4 has become popular for these fights and upon rad proc will auto kill all team mates
Wukongs clone will turn and shoot team mates (but according to wiki you can now mark targets with the clone to priorities and give 2x damage? so that might help, but I havent seen many wukongs doing that. Also when was that added lol)

[Godmode_Ash]

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Except that's literally what it's labelled as, by the developers, who told us about it when they reworked Elementals to give us Combined Elements. They specifically told us that the down-side of this elemental status is that it works on us too, and we're more dangerous than the enemy.

Right, I was saying its a poor excuse because its a bad mechanic for "team." I know DE's original design purpose for confusion.

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ahh, so what you're saying is not that the proc is bad, it's that people are bad and don't care if they kill their team?

No, the rad proc effect is bad, because it allows players to team kill. It's not players fault if they just play the game, the game mechanic allows it.

Like if stealing is legal by law, would you blame the thief or the authority?

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A player that kills their team loses their support and often the mission, or gets taken down themselves, because they're now alone. A player that team kills on purpose has nobody to support them when they go down. In point of fact, this whole discussion was literally had back when Radiation procs became a thing and you know what? People sorted it out themselves. They team killed right back, or froze out the player by not doing anything to help them, or just left the mission (which is way easier to do now that individual extracts are a thing).

I already explained in my last post that team kill doesn't effect the rest of the team. It only effect those who got killed and its quite annoying.

Majority of the content are too easy to begin with, rarely, I mean VERY rarely if someone blow up the objective then its possible to fail. But most of the time you could TK left and right and still finish the missions. Since the chance to fail mission is quite slim and there are no other consequence, most people wouldn't bother restrict their TK, which is what's happening in a lot of these sisters fight. People dying left and right.

Edit: I just re-read your post. but why are you turning it into a TK war LOL? Why not just disable friendly fire?

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You have options to deal with butt-hat players already.

Forgetting them because the radiation proc became less common in everyday play just means you can re-learn those options.

You mean go solo? I already responded to that.

No, the rad proc has become more and more common especially with the addition of sisters update. I used to think TK is funny, but now its getting out of the hand seeing it every damn day.

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You seem to have completely mis-read that comment.

I might have mis-understand your intention when you disagree with my suggestion. I still don't know your stand actually.

Do you disapprove my idea because of the damage reflect? Or do you think rad is perfect the way it is currently?

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It was a solid 'Appeal to Authority' argument. DE support friendly fire, but not self damage.

Why? Because the community, a large and vocal part of the community, don't support self damage and asked consistently to change that. Because we self-delete with even the hint of an AoE weapon. Further than that, self-damage was also used in exploits, like the infinitely scaling Trinity functions.

The reason I was proposing damage reflect is because I don't see it the same way as AOE weapon self kill.

There are many way to avoid getting rad debuff(pay attention, use arcane, use mod, don't stand in AOE etc), so I feel getting rad debuff is player's own mistake. However, for AOE weapons, there are so many unpredictable situation such as door close, teammate/pet jump in front of you, lag etc. Getting 1-shot by self AOE is very random while getting rad debuff is very predictable.

Someone in thread mention common on lich/sister weapon can also proc rad. In that case I do agree then it would make solo impossible. 

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's something that DE do not want in the game.

You and I have absolutely no say in that.

But what I can tell you is that, unless changes happen and are reversed in a matter of three months after the change (the 'patch window'), DE have never reverted a change on that kind of level after it's been in the game past the patch window.

Well this is feedback section and I am giving my feedback. Even if DE doesn't agree, at least I tried.