Please revert changes to the Kuva Grattler and give it the same stats as the normal version.

[T-Shark69]

The recent hotfix introduced a steep reduction in base damage stats to the Kuva Grattler making it worse than the normal version.

Its 7% extra damage with a 60% bonus compared to the normal grattler, since the elemental damage scales from base stats. The nerf is unjustified one way or the other. It shouldnt be a sidegrade to smth u buy for credits considering what you have to go through to get a Kuva Grattler.

Please fix the AOE value and give it the old space stats it had before the hotfix so it doesnt feel underwhelming to max it out.
Acrhguns are way worse now compared to guns due to lack of Galvanized mods and Arcanes. In addition to this they are restricted to game modes that allow for gear usage and are on a long cooldown tied to ammo consumption. Knowing all that they should get stronger, not weaker!

[taiiat]

note, that the Arsenal comparison doesn't take the Kuva/Tenet Damage Bonus into account. so remember that the best performance of these Weapons is 1.6x the Damage of what the Stat sheet is.

[T-Shark69]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

note, that the Arsenal comparison doesn't take the Kuva/Tenet Damage Bonus into account. so remember that the best performance of these Weapons is 1.6x the Damage of what the Stat sheet is.

Its 7% extra damage with a 60% bonus compared to the normal grattler, since the elemental damage scales from base stats. The nerf is unjustified one way or the other. It shouldnt be a sidegrade to smth u buy for credits considering what you have to go through to get a Kuva Grattler.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, T-Shark69 said:

Its 7% extra damage with a 60% bonus compared to the normal grattler, since the elemental damage scales from base stats. The nerf is unjustified one way or the other. It shouldnt be a sidegrade to smth u buy for credits considering what you have to go through to get a Kuva Grattler.

it's not a sidegrade with vanilla, it's better in every way except Fire Rate and the direct shot Damage is a little bit lower. a free Element too.

how much better than vanilla, i don't have a dog in that race. but it's better.

[T-Shark69]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

but it's better.

The point here is that its not enough for what it asks out of you to reach that level. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 17 heures, taiiat a dit :

it's not a sidegrade with vanilla, it's better in every way except Fire Rate and the direct shot Damage is a little bit lower. a free Element too.

how much better than vanilla, i don't have a dog in that race. but it's better.

In the meantime the Mausolon which is a default weapon given for free with necramech still outshine all other prisma / kuva weapons (perhaps except if you manage to get a 60% ayanga kuva).

before the nerf the grattler was OK but wasn't OP, after it's back to the middle ground of MR fodders, but that requires 2h of farming and 5 formas.

P.S.: and remember that if the Mausolon would get nerfed, it would mean that Heavy guns would be lighter than pistols...

[Souru]

Very agree.

[taiiat]

13 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

In the meantime the Mausolon which is a default weapon given for free with necramech still outshine all other prisma / kuva weapons (perhaps except if you manage to get a 60% ayanga kuva).

yeah, Mausolon is mechanically built to be basically perfect. it's good against both crowds of trash and Priority Targets.

no amount of Stats is really going to compete against that. 10x the Damage on other Archguns wouldn't change that.

[Leqesai]

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yeah, Mausolon is mechanically built to be basically perfect. it's good against both crowds of trash and Priority Targets.

no amount of Stats is really going to compete against that. 10x the Damage on other Archguns wouldn't change that.

I actually prefer the grattler to the mausolon many times over. Mausolon is like baby's first archgun imo.

[taiiat]

15 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I actually prefer the grattler to the mausolon many times over. Mausolon is like baby's first archgun imo.

i agree in principle - Mausolon is incredibly boring to use.
but, the performance tells it all.  i hate using it just as much as it sounds you do, it's not fun to use. but i'm not talking about fun.

if a Mission was like, an Exterminate against low level stuff, then other Archguns could certainly do that faster. but as the Levels increase, the more things like Mausolon dramatically outperform. until such a point that you can't Kill anything, and then Velocitus takes back over, but that's a pretty extreme Level for that, heh.

[Leqesai]

50 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i agree in principle - Mausolon is incredibly boring to use.
but, the performance tells it all.  i hate using it just as much as it sounds you do, it's not fun to use. but i'm not talking about fun.

if a Mission was like, an Exterminate against low level stuff, then other Archguns could certainly do that faster. but as the Levels increase, the more things like Mausolon dramatically outperform. until such a point that you can't Kill anything, and then Velocitus takes back over, but that's a pretty extreme Level for that, heh.

This is exactly how I thought for a long time. Then I joined the church of Grattler. 

Grattler with a good riven outperforms all other arch guns in my experience. The 9m blast radius is nothing to joke about. It is my go to weapon for steel path acolyte farming. Mausolon is a decent weapon (no doubt about it) but it is wildly popular because everyone gets it and it is markedly better than most other archguns so they just go "mausolon is OP" and leave it at that. Grattler is also a weapon that turns people off initially due to the reload+small magazine. But once you figure out how to effectively mod it (and get a good riven to offset the reload) it passes mausolon effectiveness by miles.

For one, the AOE damage is naerly 5x the mausolon, with nearly 5x the range. EDIT: It is important to note that the explosion bypasses LOS.

Mausuolon's 300 round magazine is good for beginners as well because it works right out the gate. Grattler's 30 round magazine is a big turn off for most people.

 

And here's the thing. A lot of people are shooting down Kuva Grattler but IMO it is a straight up upgrade to the regular Grattler. 2x the Magazine and no spool up time is a really significant QOL improvement. You really need a 60% roll for it to surpass the regular grattler if you've got a solid riven, but out the gate Kuva Grattler is a big improvement over the regular grattler.

 

To reiterate. I was on the "grattler is not that great" fence for years. But after finally figuring it out, getting a solid riven for it, and playing with it a lot more I can say without any doubt that it is the best Arch Gun for necramech/heavy weapon use (Fluctus is also pretty good for necramechs but only when you can exploit its infinite piercing... Mausuolon, Velocitus, Kuva Ayanga are all good weapons as well). Kuva Ayanga is god tier for railjack archwing IMO but that's a different conversation.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

It is my go to weapon for steel path acolyte farming.

wait, are we talking about the same thing? i'm talking about scenarios where your choices are only Archguns, like, for Mechs. because when you don't need to use an Archgun for something, like snooze path, there's way better things than Archguns anyways.

and specifically on the ground, in space i'll go with Velocitus generally ever since they added those Ricochets. best of both worlds there.

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

For one, the AOE damage is naerly 5x the mausolon, with nearly 5x the range. EDIT: It is important to note that the explosion bypasses LOS.

i'm pretty sure my point of when having to Kill lots of relatively weak Enemies where AoE Weapons would perform the best, covered that :)
we just usually don't actually need to Kill most of the Enemies in front of us, only a certain few.

[Leqesai]

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

wait, are we talking about the same thing? i'm talking about scenarios where your choices are only Archguns, like, for Mechs. because when you don't need to use an Archgun for something, like snooze path, there's way better things than Archguns anyways.

and specifically on the ground, in space i'll go with Velocitus generally ever since they added those Ricochets. best of both worlds there.

The 9m autocannon that is Grattler works exceptionally well in Steel Path vs infested. You can pretty easily wipe out hordes of Infested (works well if you find a T or L intersection where you can stand far enough away to force enemy spawns in choke points) without doing any actual work. Honestly there is no primary/secondary weapon that works better for this purpose IMO. 

For mechs, I always use Grattler. It is simply too good to not use... And I love using mechs so I'm almost always using it. 

In space Grattler is not great, which is why I go Kuva Ayanga. Velocitus is great for regular archwing missions but I find the Kuva Ayanga to be generally more useful in railjack.

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'm pretty sure my point of when having to Kill lots of relatively weak Enemies where AoE Weapons would perform the best, covered that :)
we just usually don't actually need to Kill most of the Enemies in front of us, only a certain few.

I like to kill everything :P

Grattler is

 

 

[taiiat]

18 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

In space Grattler is not great, which is why I go Kuva Ayanga. Velocitus is great for regular archwing missions but I find the Kuva Ayanga to be generally more useful in railjack.

the AoE might work out in Railjack if it bypasses all the right stuff, Velocitus pierces all of those though, so if the AoE does bypass, i guess they're about equal in open spaces like Railjack.

[Leqesai]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the AoE might work out in Railjack if it bypasses all the right stuff, Velocitus pierces all of those though, so if the AoE does bypass, i guess they're about equal in open spaces like Railjack.

Yep the aoe makes short work of corpus shields. Velocitus is great dont get me wrong. I have a god roll riven for mine and it can do a ton of damage. But kuva ayanga is just easier for me to use against small ships. I am a controller pleb so precision guns like velocitus are my go to for large slow moving things.

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

Kuva Grattler is literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way:

 

• Kuva Grattler, compared to Grattler:
  • Lower base damage (50 vs. 100)
  • Lower  Impact damage (5 vs. 10)
  • Lower  Puncture damage (40 vs. 80)
  • Lower  Slash damage (5 vs. 10)
  • Lower total damage (50 vs. 100)
  • Lower area attack damage (155 vs. 205)
  • Higher critical chance (27% vs. 25%)
  • Higher critical multiplier (2.1x vs. 2x)
  • Higher status chance (27% vs. 25%)
  • Lower fire rate (5.55 rounds/sec vs. 6.25 rounds/sec)
  • Larger magazine (60 rounds vs. 30 rounds)
  • Different polarities ( vs. )
  • Higher Mastery Rank required (15 vs. 4)
  • Lower disposition (0.5 vs. 1)

Imagine dropping a nerf patch on Tennocon lmao

[rapt0rman]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Kuva Grattler is literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way:

 

• Kuva Grattler, compared to Grattler:
  • Lower base damage (50 vs. 100)
  • Lower  Impact damage (5 vs. 10)
  • Lower  Puncture damage (40 vs. 80)
  • Lower  Slash damage (5 vs. 10)
  • Lower total damage (50 vs. 100)
  • Lower area attack damage (155 vs. 205)
  • Higher critical chance (27% vs. 25%)
  • Higher critical multiplier (2.1x vs. 2x)
  • Higher status chance (27% vs. 25%)
  • Lower fire rate (5.55 rounds/sec vs. 6.25 rounds/sec)
  • Larger magazine (60 rounds vs. 30 rounds)
  • Different polarities ( vs. )
  • Higher Mastery Rank required (15 vs. 4)
  • Lower disposition (0.5 vs. 1)

Imagine dropping a nerf patch on Tennocon lmao

Guys, seriously... Valence elemental bonus. That isn't the true base damage even with just a 25% bonus, at 60% it's 80 direct damage and 248 aoe.

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

28 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Guys, seriously... Valence elemental bonus. That isn't the true base damage even with just a 25% bonus, at 60% it's 80 direct damage and 248 aoe.

Which is a whopping 7.5% increase in damage over the base version, with the full 60% bonus (requiring you to farm multiple weapons to fuse), when most Kuva weapons have better base stats in addition to the elemental bonus. 

This 7.5% increase is also wholly mitigated by the 11% fire rate reduction, and not saved by the trivial increases in its other stats.

Why y'all go to bat for the nerfs is beyond me.

[rapt0rman]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Which is a whopping 7.5% increase in damage over the base version, with the full 60% bonus (requiring you to farm multiple weapons to fuse), when most Kuva weapons have better base stats in addition to the elemental bonus. 

This 7.5% increase is also wholly mitigated by the 11% fire rate reduction, and not saved by the trivial increases in its other stats.

Why y'all go to bat for the nerfs is beyond me.

On the contrary, the magazine size by itself makes up for it (wanted to like the original but frankly the mag size was painful), as does the freed up mod slot from the element. At worst it's a sidegrade which still isn't "literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way".

[T-Shark69]

57 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

At worst it's a sidegrade which still isn't "literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way".

Couldve been better without jumping through hoops and sparking pedantic arguments about its stats. 
What I'm trying to say with my thread is that there is no reason for it to be nerfed so much considering the work you have to go through to max it out compared to the base version that you can just buy off of your dojo. Considering the fact that the Mausolon you get for free can outperform it. Considering that now : Melee>Guns>Archguns. Considering the fact that it has cooldowns to use it and unavialable in game modes that prevent gear items. Normal Grattler will also have the riven disposition advantage for the foreseeable future. I wouldnt like to have to go though a tedious grind for just a change in weapon handling and a small boost in DPS for this Archgun at this point, while earlier it was my first priority.

I cant understand how such an underused weapon deserved to have such a drastic slash in its stats.

[rapt0rman]

I don't even disagree, still gonna call out people who intentionally cite the completely unmodified base damage as "proof" of hyperbole (especially since their response always shows that they actually knew how it works)

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

25 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I don't even disagree, still gonna call out people who intentionally cite the completely unmodified base damage as "proof" of hyperbole (especially since their response always shows that they actually knew how it works)

Hyperbole, perhaps. By my math the Kuva Grattler, when accounting for the 60% elemental bonus, does outperform the base variant by 9.9% in Gravimag or a mere 5.3% from Archwing (or more importantly, Necramech). If <10% more damage weighed by the grind to get it is the hill you wish to cry hyperbole from, so be it.

 

[rapt0rman]

1 minute ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Hyperbole, perhaps. By my math the Kuva Grattler, when accounting for the 60% elemental bonus, does outperform the base variant by 9.9% in Gravimag or a mere 5.3% from Archwing (or more importantly, Necramech). If <10% more damage weighed by the grind to get it is the hill you wish to cry hyperbole from, so be it.

 

"Kuva Grattler is literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way:"

Paired with 

• Lower base damage (50 vs. 100)
• Lower area attack damage (155 vs. 205)

Presented by itself, without clarification, is straight up disinformation and hyperbole.

Only after I reminded you of valence, did you go on to give a much more reasonable description of a sidegrade.

[Leqesai]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Hyperbole, perhaps. By my math the Kuva Grattler, when accounting for the 60% elemental bonus, does outperform the base variant by 9.9% in Gravimag or a mere 5.3% from Archwing (or more importantly, Necramech). If <10% more damage weighed by the grind to get it is the hill you wish to cry hyperbole from, so be it.

 

Does your math account for the no spool up time on the Kuva Grattler? Because this is a significant improvement over the regular variant.

Kuva Grattler is straight up an upgrade over the regular version. Just because the damage numbers are lower (without decent elem %) absolutely does not mean it is worse. As already noted, the doubled magazine size is a huge buff, and the no spool up time makes the DPS higher even without max elem %. 

Regular Grattler shots fire at 40% fire rate, then 60% then 80% then 100%.

It takes 4 shots for it to reach max speed. While the max speed of Kuva Grattler is a little slower, the burst DPS is much higher.
First shot from regular Grattler is 2.5 speed
Second is 3.75 speed
Third is 5 speed
Fourth (and beyond) is 6.25 speed

I'm not sure the exact numbers but I believe Kuva Grattler gets 2 or 3 extra shots fired in the time it takes the regular variant to spool. And a reminder, every time you take your finger off the trigger the regular variant has to spool again. 

 

TBH The main draw to the regular variant is the riven disposition. If you're going against high level enemies and expect to hold the trigger down for a long time then the regular variant will probably come out on top (with a good riven), whereas the Kuva Variant is better for burst-fire and general use due to higher mag capacity and no spool time.

 

The kuva variant isn't wildly more powerful than the regular variant but it didn't need to be. Grattler is already a fantastic gun.

Honestly I think there are only a couple of really powered up variant weapons.
Kuva Nukor is the biggest offender of overtuned variants.

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

30 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

"Kuva Grattler is literally worse than normal Grattler now in almost every measurable way:"

Paired with 

• Lower base damage (50 vs. 100)
• Lower area attack damage (155 vs. 205)

Presented by itself, without clarification, is straight up disinformation and hyperbole.

It's a Kuva weapon. I would hope in a thread about Kuva weapon balance it would be understood that the weapon has an element bonus on it. When compensated for the base 25% elemental bonus, the normal Grattler outperforms the Kuva variant by ~9-20%. Which is worse.

Even if we only consider the base stats, this is still significant because most kuva weapons have better stats in addition to the element bonus.

Quote

Only after I reminded you of valence, did you go on to give a much more reasonable description of a sidegrade.

Yes, you contributed.

EDIT: As Lequesai pointed out, the lack of spool up is a significant factor and not accounted for in my math. I'm not certain if it would make a big difference in overall DPS or not, but the initial burst DPS would clearly be higher. And it also carries a convenience factor with it.