Please revert changes to the Kuva Grattler and give it the same stats as the normal version.

[TARINunit9]

7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Aresenal stats are not representative of how these weapons actually perform, however. I've done numerous tests with both Grattler and Kuva Grattler and Kuva Grattler comes out on top every time. In my tests I did clear times vs level 150 heavy gunners and with the same exact build Kuva Grattler had an average clear time of like 4-5 seconds faster than the regular Grattler. 

Alright but what was your bonus? I dare you to try it again with a-

7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The mag increase and the no wind up time make a significant impact on DPS.

No spool-up time! That actually does make a substantial difference, and I agree it's a genuine shame the arsenal stats don't reflect it

[Leqesai]

14 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Alright but what was your bonus? I dare you to try it again with a-

No spool-up time! That actually does make a substantial difference, and I agree it's a genuine shame the arsenal stats don't reflect it

My tests were done with a decent bonus. I can't remember off hand but I want to say around 54% element. So they're representative of the upper ceiling as far as performance goes. With a lower % they're certainly closer to the same clear time.

[Orakan]

22 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Aresenal stats are not representative of how these weapons actually perform, however. I've done numerous tests with both Grattler and Kuva Grattler and Kuva Grattler comes out on top every time. In my tests I did clear times vs level 150 heavy gunners and with the same exact build Kuva Grattler had an average clear time of like 4-5 seconds faster than the regular Grattler. 

The mag increase and the no wind up time make a significant impact on DPS. It might not seem obvious at first but the 2x larger magazine and no spool up actually ends up with much higher sustain DPS. Reason being, with the regular Grattler you have to re-spool every time the mag empties. This essentially means you have 2x the regular cool up time by the time Kuva Grattler has gone through one magazine. 

The only area where Grattler comes out on top, compared to the Kuva Variant, is in single target damage. But this is hardly a single-target kind of weapon anyway so I personally find this irrelevant.

 

 

 

I have done testings too and you probably have a heat damage variant like me but and if you have heat variant it will kinda kill at the same time because of the heat procs and less reloads but you are spending more ammo if you are not lucky with heat procs than I have tested against higher corpus units like Axio Ranger and terra elite embattor mod (they have arguably the best defansive stats in corpus) with same elements witch is corrosive and heat (so I can show these elements pros only decent against grineer and everybody is testing against grineer only which I realy don't understand ) it showns way worst results . So we shound't get confuse with the power of the elemental procs and power of the gun

[MasterControl]

With the 60% elemental bonus, the Kuva Grattler statistically outperforms the base Grattler in every way except for fire rate. On top of this, it has the QoL of not having a spool up, and a larger magazine (which helps sustained dps pull *way* ahead on the Kuva Grattler, and the burst dps should be similar if not identical or better thanks to the lack of a spool up). This is on top of taking some of the innate Blast damage and turning it into the element of your choice, and considering blast is a pretty awful proc and damage type this is a significant upgrade in of itself.

I'm not sure why people still think the Kuva Grattler isn't worth it. The base version was already incredible if you could get around the ammo issues, which this version helps solve. It has an absolutely gigantic AoE for an automatic bomb launcher and ridiculous damage.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm not sure that's really a point in the Kuva weapon's favor. Especially when you have weapons like the Kuva Tonkor, that have the same base damage AND an elemental bonus. So the Kuva Kohm and the Kuva Grattler relying on the 60% bonus to offset their 50% penalty, when other Kuva weapons have no penalty, seems like a bad dichotomy to me. And definitely a bad dichotomy to OP

Comparing even before meta kohm vs then not even considered tonkor (both regular guns at that) to Grattler which is pretty much like every other AW gun without a gimmick at a servicable point isnt a really functional dichotomy either.

Its more aoe slightly less damage ayanga, its 1.3 damage buffed no spool grattler. Already good enough AW gun is better when damage goes up 30% yet doesnt become mandatory in a generally meh other than gimmicks category. If OP wanted to make a point, last i checked with clan KGrat is still bugged in ground form to not actually use its real crit and status stats (not sure if you'd ever even bother to use it in ground form tho since the regular grat, same as any high CD/low pool AW gun is a bad choice due to trash cooldown design instead of the initially pitched take up primary+secondary slot form).

 

1 hour ago, Orakan said:

Actually you can see the extra bonus elemental damage after you choose the weapon besides regular elemental modes give 120 percent on archguns so it doesn't even save you from one mod slot. Besides like I have shown in the kuva ogriss example nearly all of the nemesis weapons have better stats compare to regular ones. 

Extra elemental damage literally gets removed when arsenal comparing or linking the weapon.
Also its not about the 120% element mods, its about mod slots and their DPS worth. After 2 120 elementals or 3 elementals if using 1 or 2 60/60, crit and more base are better slots. If on ground even + ammo is better simply due to CD, however that leaves a gap in resistance coverage.

[Orakan]

1 hour ago, MasterControl said:

With the 60% elemental bonus, the Kuva Grattler statistically outperforms the base Grattler in every way except for fire rate. On top of this, it has the QoL of not having a spool up, and a larger magazine (which helps sustained dps pull *way* ahead on the Kuva Grattler, and the burst dps should be similar if not identical or better thanks to the lack of a spool up). This is on top of taking some of the innate Blast damage and turning it into the element of your choice, and considering blast is a pretty awful proc and damage type this is a significant upgrade in of itself.

I'm not sure why people still think the Kuva Grattler isn't worth it. The base version was already incredible if you could get around the ammo issues, which this version helps solve. It has an absolutely gigantic AoE for an automatic bomb launcher and ridiculous damage.

problem is right now kuva variant is like sidegrade not an upgrade. And if you are unlucky it might takes more than 8 hours to get a full elemental buff kuva variant and this point spending 8 hours for a sidegrade is realy realy not logical. I am telling you same thing has happened in Kuva Ogriss before and than after sometime devs reacted to the forums and give the proper stats to the ogriss and made that gun an upgreaded version. So trust me we need complete upgread over regular grattler.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, MasterControl said:

With the 60% elemental bonus, the Kuva Grattler statistically outperforms the base Grattler in every way except for fire rate. On top of this, it has the QoL of not having a spool up, and a larger magazine (which helps sustained dps pull *way* ahead on the Kuva Grattler, and the burst dps should be similar if not identical or better thanks to the lack of a spool up).

But riddle me this:

Why does the Kuva Grattler need a full 60% bonus to outperform the Normal Grattler, when other Kuva weapons (Tonkor, Seer, Nukor) can outperform the Normal versions even at a hypothetical 0% bonus?

[Andele3025]

17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

But riddle me this:

Why does the Kuva Grattler need a full 60% bonus to outperform the Normal Grattler, when other Kuva weapons (Tonkor, Seer, Nukor) can outperform the Normal versions even at a hypothetical 0% bonus?

It doesnt, it neeeds a 21%~ish val bonus to outperform it. The minimum val bonus is 25%.

Also because AW guns dont have primes (yet) and AW weapons in general have minimal differences in performance with MR increase (even the high mr morgha and mausolon arent much different from mr 1 fluctus or corvas on average, tho certainly more interesting as a problem solver with alt fire and better drop CD as the old ones werent balanced with heavy weapons in mind).
 

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It doesnt, it neeeds a 21%~ish upgrade to outperform it. The minimum bonus is 25%.

Before I can respond to the rest of your comment, have either of you tested with a 25% bonus? The guy I responded to admitted he was using a 60% bonus for his tests

[Leqesai]

10 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Before I can respond to the rest of your comment, have either of you tested with a 25% bonus? The guy I responded to admitted he was using a 60% bonus for his tests

I am not sure if you are referring to the tests i performed with the two weapons. Page 3 has the hard data. My kuva grattler is not 60% bonus, it is 55% bonus and the kill times for regular were average of like 19.5 seconds and kuva grattler average 16.5 second. So roughly 3 seconds faster on average to drop 20 level 150 corrupted heavy gunners.

I also ran some numbers back on page 2 outlining dps output with a 25.8% kuva grattler.

The thing is, kuva grattler should not be much stronger than the regular variant for the simple reason that grattler is already top shelf with regard to arch guns. It is silly to make top shelf weapons lots more powerful. It makes a lot more sense to give crappy weapons a big boost and strong weapons useful QOL improvements. Kuva grattler QOL improvements are huge. It is a major upgrade to grattler, just not necessarily with arsenal stats so people are convinced it isnt good without actually testing it.

[Orakan]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I am not sure if you are referring to the tests i performed with the two weapons. Page 3 has the hard data. My kuva grattler is not 60% bonus, it is 55% bonus and the kill times for regular were average of like 19.5 seconds and kuva grattler average 16.5 second. So roughly 3 seconds faster on average to drop 20 level 150 corrupted heavy gunners.

I also ran some numbers back on page 2 outlining dps output with a 25.8% kuva grattler.

The thing is, kuva grattler should not be much stronger than the regular variant for the simple reason that grattler is already top shelf with regard to arch guns. It is silly to make top shelf weapons lots more powerful. It makes a lot more sense to give crappy weapons a big boost and strong weapons useful QOL improvements. Kuva grattler QOL improvements are huge. It is a major upgrade to grattler, just not necessarily with arsenal stats so people are convinced it isnt good without actually testing it.

I have testings too but you still it they are nearly doing smilar against grineer if you are using heat kuva grattler (you probably are using a heat variant too like me ) and because of the choosen element it looks like do more dps but it isn't I have tested against corpus too with wrong elements for corpus (corrosive heat combo) and grattler kinda past the kuva variant . Problem is many people are mistaken the power of the elemental proc with power of the weapon.

This has happened before in Kuva Ogriss . Kuva Ogriss has only 4 percent more crit chance when it first cameout and nearly half damage of the regular Ogriss and people are thought it can do decent things against grineer because of the unique fire procing mod of the ogriss. Same confusion. But after many feedbacks on the forums devs changed the stats of the kuva ogriss to the today's standart. 


KUVA WEAPONS SHOULD BE A COMPLETE UPGRADE.

Nearly all nemesis weapons (both tenet and kuva ) if they have normal versions have better stats compare to regular variant . And if you start with 25 percent like me and if you are unlcuky and getting lower versions (which may only upgrade the elemental bonus 3.7 percent ) you may need 7-8 liches to get maximum result for the elemental damage bonus which is not much of damage bonus cause even regular archgun elemental mods are giving 120 percent elemental damage bonus which means you this bonus not even gonna save you from using a mod slot , You may spend nearly 8 hours to get fully upgraded kuva variant of the grattler which kinda a sidegrade for the regular version . So players may spend many hours to get insignicant quality of life upgrade with a weapon kinda giving smilar results or worse compare to regular version. 


So as in the ogriss' case we need a proper stat fix for this weapon or it won't be logical spend so much time to get so little and time is the most valuable thing in the world.

Besides after the nerf it starts to act way more poorly on railjack missions too and with the upcoming new war we might be against 100 level fighter ships like in scarlet spear so arch gun should be act way better in original content for archguns too. Trust me it was decimating even with the 25 percent heat buff when I first got the weapon.


So let us take the upgreaded version of the grattler like it happened in the kuva ogriss so all comunity should be happy

[MasterControl]

14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Before I can respond to the rest of your comment, have either of you tested with a 25% bonus? The guy I responded to admitted he was using a 60% bonus for his tests

You start beat out the normal Grattler at 32.3%. I am not personally using a full 60%, I am just stating that when maxed it is significantly better.

As far as *why* it should need the bonus to compete, the Kuva Grattler already out-DPS's even the Mausolon at max elemental bonus on top of a gigantic AoE. It doesn't need more damage. The QoL and damage bump it already has is enough. The argument that the Kuva variant should outperform the base variant even at a hypothetical (read: impossible) 0% bonus doesn't take into the account that the Kuva variants mentioned performing better is because the base variants are hot dogwater and *need* the stat buffs to be viable competitors for the slot at the top end. Nobody was using the Tonkor or the Nukor before their Kuva variants showed up because they needed the damage bump. Nobody was using Grattler because it's ammo economy was awful to work around, not because it had bad damage.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

The thing is, kuva grattler should not be much stronger than the regular variant for the simple reason that grattler is already top shelf with regard to arch guns. It is silly to make top shelf weapons lots more powerful. It makes a lot more sense to give crappy weapons a big boost and strong weapons useful QOL improvements. Kuva grattler QOL improvements are huge. It is a major upgrade to grattler, just not necessarily with arsenal stats so people are convinced it isnt good without actually testing it.

 

3 hours ago, MasterControl said:

As far as *why* it should need the bonus to compete, the Kuva Grattler already out-DPS's even the Mausolon at max elemental bonus on top of a gigantic AoE. It doesn't need more damage. The QoL and damage bump it already has is enough. The argument that the Kuva variant should outperform the base variant even at a hypothetical (read: impossible) 0% bonus doesn't take into the account that the Kuva variants mentioned performing better is because the base variants are hot dogwater and *need* the stat buffs to be viable competitors for the slot at the top end. Nobody was using the Tonkor or the Nukor before their Kuva variants showed up because they needed the damage bump. Nobody was using Grattler because it's ammo economy was awful to work around, not because it had bad damage.

The thing is, DE doesn't care about power creep until they have to care about it. I mean would you be willing to use a Kuva Stug that had lower base damage and relied on its elemental bonus to make up the difference?

I actually did see plenty of Nukor usage before Liches, and plenty of Atomos usage. Then the Kuva Nukor came along and was stronger than both of them even without the bonus. Meanwhile the Kohm sucked and was only decent with a specific riven, and DE for some weird reason made the Kuva Kohm even worse. And don't forget this was the company that made the Kuva Bramma with one hand (a weapon so broken they nerfed it in like two weeks), and Xaku and Yareli with the other hand (Warframes so underpowered they had to be buffed in less than a week)

So no, I do not believe there was any actual effort or intention to make the Kuva Grattler balanced. I genuinely think the stat changes were completely arbitrary

[MasterControl]

26 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The thing is, DE doesn't care about power creep until they have to care about it. I mean would you be willing to use a Kuva Stug that had lower base damage and relied on its elemental bonus to make up the difference?

You once again are ignoring the disparity here, and attempting to present a strawman. Stug is awful in terms of damage, mechanics, and generally just any number on the gun. Grattler was *already good.* No, nobody would be willing to use a Kuva Stug that had lower base damage, because it's already an intrinsically god awful weapon and needs all the help it can get.

26 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I actually did see plenty of Nukor usage before Liches, and plenty of Atomos usage. Then the Kuva Nukor came along and was stronger than both of them even without the bonus. Meanwhile the Kohm sucked and was only decent with a specific riven, and DE for some weird reason made the Kuva Kohm even worse. And don't forget this was the company that made the Kuva Bramma with one hand (a weapon so broken they nerfed it in like two weeks)

Nukor may have had some niche uses with Arcane Avenger or Harrow, but it was otherwise utterly unused. Atomos (I'm not sure where this came up, but okay) was good because of it's chaining and base heat, as well as it's ease of accessibility (mind, Nukor and Atomos are like.. Mastery 4 weapons.) Beyond that, people who wanted to use an actually good chaining weapon were using Amprex. What Kuva Nukor really did to become meta was condense the Amprex into the secondary slot and have better damage typing. Kuva Kohm was literally only worse because it's riven disposition didn't allow it to reach 100% status chance, and the base Kohm still could. Since the shotgun status changes, this point is moot, and Kuva Kohm is better. Kuva Bramma was overpowered on launch, and arguably still is, but I don't see where that fits into the argument that Kuva Grattler should be better. It's *way* easier to make a new gun overpowered than it is to make a variant overpowered, as the variant will have it's stats and mechanics rooted in pre-powercreep origins and typically won't do all-new things.

26 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Xaku and Yareli with the other hand (Warframes so underpowered they had to be buffed in less than a week)

DE has a design mandate that new frames be released on the weaker side, and tuned up rather than launched overpowered and tuned down. It generates less community outrage and frames are overwhelmingly more likely to break the game entirely (to exploitable levels: Xaku could have easily released as an afk auto-turret like Mesa was on launch if they were done incorrectly) than a gun that does big damage in an AoE can.

[TARINunit9]

11 minutes ago, MasterControl said:

Kuva Kohm was literally only worse because it's riven disposition didn't allow it to reach 100% status chance, and the base Kohm still could. Since the shotgun status changes, this point is moot, and Kuva Kohm is better. Kuva Bramma was overpowered on launch, and arguably still is, but I don't see where that fits into the argument that Kuva Grattler should be better. 

Yeah clearly we aren't on the same page with our respective arguments. I could talk about how there are a LOT of problems with Kohm vs Kuva Kohm beyond "Kuva can't reach 100% status chance", but if you don't see what the Bramma has to do with the Kohm or the Grattler then I think both of us are talking to different brick walls. At least things got to stay respectful this time

The short version is: in theory all Kuva weapons are stronger, but: some are only slightly stronger while others are way stronger, AND I see no correlation between the original weapon's strength and the size of the buff. It is just arbitrary and weird (Lenz vs Bramma vs Kohm vs Kuva vs Nukor vs Kuva vs Grattler vs Kuva, it genuinely all seems arbitrary, like it has nothing to do with power creep)

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

The Kuva Grattler, with the 60% elemental bonus, has a 60% damage increase on the projectile's direct hit and a 20.9756% damage increase on the explosion.

The critical and status values were only slightly boosted, the maximum fire rate was reduced, the riven dispo has been nuked, and the magazine was doubled.

Comparing other Kuva Weapons to their base counterpart, a doubled magazine being the Kuva Grattler's strongest selling point is mediocre.