Suggestion: Combine Base damage/multishot/PT for guns

[Skoomaseller]

Base damage mods (serration hornet strike etc) and multishot mods across all guns are always used. there isn't a mod setup that doesn't use either one or both (except split flights)

combine both and punch through (except for AOE launchers, and AOE beam weapons) and you'll buff single target weapons to keep up with the rest of the arsenal, while also freeing up a slot for something else (- recoil? another element? fire rate? your choice). primed/shred can be changed to give a stat other than punch through.

most of the time metal auger isn't used (15 drain for 2.1 pt isn't worth fire rate, or another element, etc), and primed/shred is swapped out for the same reason.

I see no reason not to fuse the three mod types together.

thoughts? 

[Vahenir]

With the new galvanized mods those "mandatory" mods are being replaced already. In a lot of cases you're better off with the galvanized status mod over serration and similar since said mod works like condition overload for guns. Once they fix that so it works on projectiles i kind of expect a lot of builds to be altered to use them and it wont change anything. AOE is king and will remain as such even if you had infinite damage and punchthrough on like the soma prime since it will be slower to clear a group in most cases anyway.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

thoughts? 

If your goal is strengthening "single-target" weapons, and it's a separate mod, it's clever.  PT means most AoE weapon-users will want to avoid it.  (Probably.  Here comes the "Shoot Bramma Into Wall Boundaries" builds to prove me wrong. 😉)

Unfortunately it would be a disproportionate and enormous buff to pseudo AoE beam weapons like Knukor, Amprex, Ignis, and Ocucor.   Also a very large benefit to standard beams which are already pretty good for non AoE weapons   And a smaller but still very significant bump for bullet hoses.

I don't think it would move the needle -that- much for slow, precision semi-auto.  It's not that they have trouble killing what they're pointed at when optimized, generally speaking.  It's that the way they get kills isn't very efficient for the game environment.  So their takeaway would be some QoL, some better but still bad efficiency, and some more overkill.  Not a bad result, but not a game changer either.

I'm not saying it's a great idea or a terrible idea, just that the ramifications aren't simple.   Maybe it could be disallowed on certain weapon types, and its effects heightened on others.  (For instance, by scaling inversely with RoF, or having a negative like -%ammo efficiency.)  Or maybe those are better fixed through other means.  A partial solution can still be a good solution.

[Skoomaseller]

18 hours ago, Vahenir said:

With the new galvanized mods those "mandatory" mods are being replaced already. In a lot of cases you're better off with the galvanized status mod over serration and similar since said mod works like condition overload for guns. Once they fix that so it works on projectiles i kind of expect a lot of builds to be altered to use them and it wont change anything. AOE is king and will remain as such even if you had infinite damage and punchthrough on like the soma prime since it will be slower to clear a group in most cases anyway.

replaced by galvanized dmg/multishot mods (still separate right?) wouldn't it make sense to just combine them still because you'll always run both?

[Skoomaseller]

17 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

If your goal is strengthening "single-target" weapons, and it's a separate mod, it's clever.  PT means most AoE weapon-users will want to avoid it.  (Probably.  Here comes the "Shoot Bramma Into Wall Boundaries" builds to prove me wrong. 😉)

Unfortunately it would be a disproportionate and enormous buff to pseudo AoE beam weapons like Knukor, Amprex, Ignis, and Ocucor.   Also a very large benefit to standard beams which are already pretty good for non AoE weapons   And a smaller but still very significant bump for bullet hoses.

I don't think it would move the needle -that- much for slow, precision semi-auto.  It's not that they have trouble killing what they're pointed at when optimized, generally speaking.  It's that the way they get kills isn't very efficient for the game environment.  So their takeaway would be some QoL, some better but still bad efficiency, and some more overkill.  Not a bad result, but not a game changer either.

I'm not saying it's a great idea or a terrible idea, just that the ramifications aren't simple.   Maybe it could be disallowed on certain weapon types, and its effects heightened on others.  (For instance, by scaling inversely with RoF, or having a negative like -%ammo efficiency.)  Or maybe those are better fixed through other means.  A partial solution can still be a good solution.

aoe will always be better, yeah, and my suggestion wasn't an outright fix but to give non aoe guns some bit of love. small as it may be

[Vahenir]

36 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

replaced by galvanized dmg/multishot mods (still separate right?) wouldn't it make sense to just combine them still because you'll always run both?

Not really since the galvanized damage mod isn't always optimal. Sometimes you still want to use the old one with the galvanized multishot etc. In either case the new slot will be used to increase damage rather than utility since its all about killing enemies fast. 

Having innate multishot on all singletarget non exploding weapons would be a nice boost to them in either case. 

[Skoomaseller]

6 hours ago, Vahenir said:

Not really since the galvanized damage mod isn't always optimal. Sometimes you still want to use the old one with the galvanized multishot etc. In either case the new slot will be used to increase damage rather than utility since its all about killing enemies fast. 

Having innate multishot on all singletarget non exploding weapons would be a nice boost to them in either case. 

then just add base damage to galvanized chamber rename it to galvanized serration or something and make the base dmg stack the same way the mod stacks multishot

how is freeing up one more slot for damage a bad thing? now i potentially have one more flex slot: do I want argon scope? bladed rounds? hunter munitions? heavy cal? maybe more fire rate? extra element? or additional qol mod like reload speed? - recoil?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

58 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

then just add base damage to galvanized chamber rename it to galvanized serration or something and make the base dmg stack the same way the mod stacks multishot

how is freeing up one more slot for damage a bad thing? now i potentially have one more flex slot: do I want argon scope? bladed rounds? hunter munitions? heavy cal? maybe more fire rate? extra element? or additional qol mod like reload speed? - recoil?

Modding weapons in Warframe boils down to cramming as many different multipliers the game will allow you to have.

You always want 1 or 2 mods contributing to a multiplier layer, but 3 runs into opportunity costs as stacking the same stat leads to lower relative returns, making other options more attractive. When putting QoL on a scale with an entire damage multiplier, the extra damage multiplier will win out always. Only by exhausting all unconditional damage multipliers do QoL mods start to be attractive, but we have a lot of unconditional multipliers.

A typical Weapon:

• 1 mod for Base Damage (Serration)
• 1 mod for Multi-shot (Split Chamber)
• 2 mods for Crit (Point Strike and Vital Sense)
• 2 mods for Elements, usually Viral (Elemental Damage is a multiplier, Enemy Resistances is a multiplier and Viral procs are another multiplier)
• 1 mod for slot for Hunter Munitions (Bleed bypasses the enemy health multiplier called armor, so it's effectively another damage multiplier that's additive with Elemental Damage, but multiplicative with Viral procs)
• 1 Flex

Serration, Split Chamber and Elements are unconditional multipliers that come with no strings attached and are thus no brainers. Crit mods are unconditional to weapons with good Crit stats and are auto includes on those weapons. Banes and Fire Rate are also extra damage multipliers, but they are more conditional. Banes only work on certain enemies and Fire Rate may ruin the ammo economy of some weapons. There are weapons with terrible Crit stats that can't get use out of Vital Sense, Point Strike and Hunter Munitions, but that doesn't mean they get 3 extra flex slots, it just means that they MR Fodder because they don't have access to some exclusive multipliers top tier weapons get.

The new arcanes are basically an extra mod slot that gives conditional Base Damage, and depending on some play styles, it makes sense to opt out of Serration and replace it with another multiplier like Fire Rate if a weapon has good ammo economy. Serration is additive with the arcane, Vile Acceleration is multiplicative. 

Before QoL mods are even considered, all unconditional damage multipliers must be exhausted first.

The abundance of damage multipliers is also what contributes to the ridiculous power gaps between players. An extra multiplier is an extra order of magnitude difference between player damage.

It's the same issue with armored enemies being an extra order of magnitude tankier than shielded enemies. Armor scaling is multiplicative with health scaling. Shields are only additive with health scaling. So Grineer feel overbearing in the Steel Path compared to Corpus, just like how Meta weapons with good Crit stats are overbearing compared to MR Fodder that can't use Crit.

AOE is fundamentally another damage multiplier single target weapons don't have access to and AOE weapons have comparable damage for some reason. They are supposed to be balanced by bad ammo economy, but DE thought Ammo Mutation was bad enough for the Exilus slot. Primed Sure Footed is an Exilus Slot on Warframes. Hindsight 20/20.

The true solution to mandatory mods is either a massive nerf to mod numbers or changing multiplier interactions into additive ones just like what happened to Condition Overload and Primed Pressure Point. CO and PPP were once separate multipliers so they were no brainers on a build. Once they became additive, they started competing for the same slot reserved for "Base Damage". Opened up for other multipliers like Primed Reach's AOE or Healing Return's utility.

Cut down on excessive Multiplication:

• Critical Multiplier and Viral procs made additive with Base Damage. 4.4x Crit = +340% Base Damage, 1 Viral Proc = +100% Base Damage
• All multi-shot given equal % of -accuracy as a drawback.
• Replace headshot multiplier with flat +100% Critical Chance on headshot.
• Base enemy armor buffed, but no longer scales at all. (Bleed is lowered to the same level as other Dots)

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Would make it hard for the player to equip themselves to match the enemy for a good fight, and the aforementioned mods aren't necessary for many things outside of extremely high-level content.

The mod system at the moment is a give-and-take system; a player chooses to equip all of the damage, but sacrifices flexibility to do so. Specialising for high-level content or fast grinding through equipping specific mods and forma'ing equipment feels like it makes sense, and personally I see zero need to combine the three at the moment.

What are you doing that you feel forced to equip those three mods? Are there perhaps some weapons that aren't cutting it at all for you for some of the content?

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

On 2021-07-17 at 8:08 PM, Vahenir said:

In a lot of cases you're better off with the galvanized status mod over serration and similar since said mod works like condition overload for guns. 

Serration grants +165% damage. Galvanized Aptitude gives +80% at max stacks and gives you a whopping 0% until you get a kill with it. If someone told you to replace Serration with Galvanized Aptitude they've given you bad advice.

I second an overhaul to mods, though. They could pretty easily get rid of Serration for example and just up all primaries by 165% and free us up a mod slot. I doubt they will, but I'm in favor of build diversity.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

3 hours ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Serration grants +165% damage. Galvanized Aptitude gives +80% at max stacks and gives you a whopping 0% until you get a kill with it. If someone told you to replace Serration with Galvanized Aptitude they've given you bad advice.

It's +80% PER STATUS, which is exactly the same as condition overload. Condition overload replaced pressure point a long time ago. Galvanized aptitude will replace serration in a lot of builds where more damage is necessary.

[fo3nixz]

err seriously two guns i dont want pt on is a tether ferrox and secura penta

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

50 minutes ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

It's +80% PER STATUS, which is exactly the same as condition overload.

Read the mod. On Kill: +40% Damage per Status Type affecting the target for 20s. Stacks up to 2x.

So to recap, it's +40% per status, stacking up to two times for a total of +80%

Quote

Condition overload replaced pressure point a long time ago. Galvanized aptitude will replace serration in a lot of builds where more damage is necessary.

Condition Overload got NERFED. It is now +80% damage per status up to maximum of 3x. This grants a maximum of +240% compared to old CO with, say 5-7 statuses hitting at  400-560%. Considering the new CO is only a 45% increase in damage versus the ~140% - 240% it used to be makes it a much less compelling argument.

[Vahenir]

There is no max limit on how many statuses can boost the damage on both CO and the galvanized mod. Basically what the two kills do is give you +80% per status affecting the enemy. So its the damage boost that stacks from 0 to 40 and finally 80% per status. If you also run the dexterity arcane you get another 360% damage on your weapon by killing with your melee.

As for CO, they just changed the damage increase from 120% per status to 80% per status so that it supasses primed pressure point at 3x status rather than 2x

At least as far as i know. If there had really been a 3x status limit then im pretty sure the forum would have been on fire with complaints. It is not.

[(PSN)RookTheKnight]

23 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

There is no max limit on how many statuses can boost the damage on both CO and the galvanized mod. Basically what the two kills do is give you +80% per status affecting the enemy. So its the damage boost that stacks from 0 to 40 and finally 80% per status. If you also run the dexterity arcane you get another 360% damage on your weapon by killing with your melee.

Read the mod. +40% damage per status type with a limit of two.

EDIT: I might be misreading it. If it's literally 80% per status I'm big dumb. My understanding was that limit referred to the number of statuses it can benefit from.

Quote

As for CO, they just changed the damage increase from 120% per status to 80% per status so that it supasses primed pressure point at 3x status rather than 2x

At least as far as i know. If there had really been a 3x status limit then im pretty sure the forum would have been on fire with complaints. It is not.

Sisters of Parvos launched with big melee nerfs, and specifically to Condition Overload:

Spoiler

 

Quote

Condition Overload:

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To
+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

 

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

2 hours ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Read the mod. On Kill: +40% Damage per Status Type affecting the target for 20s. Stacks up to 2x.

So to recap, it's +40% per status, stacking up to two times for a total of +80%

Condition Overload got NERFED. It is now +80% damage per status up to maximum of 3x. This grants a maximum of +240% compared to old CO with, say 5-7 statuses hitting at  400-560%. Considering the new CO is only a 45% increase in damage versus the ~140% - 240% it used to be makes it a much less compelling argument.

Woosh. Fortunately, you've pretty much got it all wrong. I'd suggest doing some actual testing, or simply play the game yourself. 

CO has no limit on status effects, hence why it's still many times stronger than PPP. It simply had the damage lowered to 80% per status effect.

The "stacks" referred to on the Galvanized mods is the stacks from kills. So you need 2 kills to get the weapon to +80% damage per status effect, i.e. the same as CO. And just like CO there is no limit to status effects. 

So now if you can quickly apply 5+ status effects, that's +400% damage with your melee and your guns (just need to grab a couple of kills with the guns to get the effects).

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, (PSN)RookTheKnight said:

Read the mod. +40% damage per status type with a limit of two.

EDIT: I might be misreading it. If it's literally 80% per status I'm big dumb. My understanding was that limit referred to the number of statuses it can benefit from.

Condition Overload definitely stacks to at least five status effects.  I've no reason to suspect the cap is less than the natural one on distinct status effects--but that's as far as I've tested it.  (I agree that the wording in the dev description was poor and caused needless confusion.)

The Galvanized Status mods I think are very clearly intended to mirror CO, just with an additional hoop to jump through.   i.e., the "stacks up to 2x" refers to a maximum bonus of 80% per status effect after getting two kills.  I haven't verified it's working that way myself, although the wiki implies this is is the case.