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aren't planning reworks?, what's the point in warframe feedback forum ?


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so as per what was said on the main stream about any work redoing existing frames is directly taking away from work on new content.

clearly stated currently to have no plans to rework any existing frames!

half the threads are rework suggestions, is the warframe feedback sub-forum done ?

Edited by _Anise_
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first of all this is general discussion and no, most rework proposals had no impact on whether or not a frame was going to be reworked.

 

you misunderstood what was said.

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21 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

half the threads are rework suggestions, is this sub-forum done ?

The sub-forum you posted in is for discussion, not rework suggestions.

 

You are completely ignoring the fact that most rework suggestions are not good anyway.

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I was pretty upset hearing that too, it was heartbreaking.

Quote

Quotes that stand out from Pablo during the Live Developer Q & A:

1. "When you're doing something, you're also not doing something else." (29:10)

2. "Even though I do think going back and [touching up] some of those older warframes would make the game better, at the same time that means that if we are working on that we are not working on new stuff." (29:20)

There is so much content in the current game that is so close to being good - and yet, it is not there yet; old content requires reworks to keep it relevant and to breathe new life into it.

It is frustrating to think that the only progress we will ever see is going to be new; once something is released it is merely added to the pile of other rotting content. The majority of the threads that I post are suggestions for improvements - and I am not alone.

Edited by TehGrief
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13 minutes ago, TehGrief said:

I was pretty upset hearing that too, it was heartbreaking.

There is so much content in the current game that is so close to being good - and yet, it is not there yet; old content requires reworks to keep it relevant and to breathe new life into it.

It is frustrating to think that the only progress we will ever see is going to be new; once something is released it is merely added to the pile of other rotting content. The majority of the threads that I post are suggestions for improvements - and I am not alone.

Again, you misunderstood. They have information from usage data that things are relatively fine. there arent any glaring issues that need to be addressed immediately. Not once did they say they would never touch old content to bring it back into the fold. 

Do some frames need a slight TLC touch? sure, but its not a pressing issue.

They DID state that alienating older players who have used frames for a long time is a bad decision which is why they dont touch older frames unless they absolutely need to.

Id be IRATE if they overhauled Frost or Banshee to the degree the "rework" threads want. which is usually a terrible idea for more than just a plethora of reasons. Most those people dont even play the frames they want reworked which is why they are always so off the wall bad.

Edited by Zhoyzu
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9 hours ago, TehGrief said:

and I am not alone.

you definitly are not alone..

and so many people are vocal about this.. there are so many issues, not only with the warframes but many CORE concepts of the game that make frame design harder and harder.. as we can CLEARLY see with Yareli.. no matter how you change her numbers, she is either OP in low level or useless in higher levels, because numeric values in this game are completly out of control, enemy damage and all defences have just grown so exponantially large that there just can't be balanced content anymore.. not to mention any kind of real  challenging content..

and we slap bandaid solution after bandaid solution on these problems that dont fix the content but make it more easy to swollow? and then, if there are older frames that dont yet have these bandaid solutions implemented they just fall behind.. in some cases beeing unable to even clear the content without abusing stuff from other frames now or by utalizing oher bandaid solutions to not die or not rely on ther abilities in any way to help them do mission.

Edited by SmokinDice
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2 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

Again, you misunderstood. They have information from usage data that things are relatively fine. there arent any glaring issues that need to be addressed immediately. Not once did they say they would never touch old content to bring it back into the fold. 

Do some frames need a slight TLC touch? sure, but its not a pressing issue.

They DID state that alienating older players who have used frames for a long time is a bad decision which is why they dont touch older frames unless they absolutely need to.

Id be IRATE if they overhauled Frost or Banshee to the degree the "rework" threads want. which is usually a terrible idea for more than just a plethora of reasons. Most those people dont even play the frames they want reworked which is why they are always so off the wall bad.

If this is the case, then we need to increase the amount of abilities you can infuse in The Helminth system from 1 to 2. Yes, this may include some power creep, but if DE doesn't want to rework frames, then let's players do them themselves.

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Just now, DrivaMain said:

If this is the case, then we need to increase the amount of abilities you can infuse in The Helminth system from 1 to 2. Yes, this may include some power creep, but if DE doesn't want to rework frames, then let's players do them themselves.

I agree, the only ability on Wukong even worth using or modding for is cloud walker. the frame is absolute garbage. Limbos only useful ability is his passive, another trash frame that could use a good many infusions to make playable. 

 

Again DE never said they didnt want to rework frames. They just dont have any plans to do so in the near future. I literally cannot understand why people are failing to grasp this...

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20 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

They DID state that alienating older players who have used frames for a long time is a bad decision which is why they dont touch older frames unless they absolutely need to.

Id be IRATE if they changed Frost or Banshee.

I can TOTALLY get that.. because I am SCARED that they ever touch nyx... because honestly and secretly she is the most OP broken frame in the game.. people just dont get it...

so I fear they do the same as they did to valkyr and wukong in their times, just taking away the "easy" fun we had and make her more complicated.. wukong now turned out fine after another revisit and is the most played and probablyxone of the strongest top 5 warframes.

 

BUT there are still ways that are often SO easy and have SO many good suggestion to give stuff to frames that they REALLY DESPERATLY need, that they could add EASILY with just and only some buffs to abilities without messing to much with anything else...

 

for example giving Banshee ANY kind of defesive capability, increasing the value of her silence by giving her dodge chance, DR, or make her semi invis like wisp in the air.. NO banshee main would have a problem with her just beeing more tanky baseline..

Give Frost just higher stats. give him way more armor, give his avalanche better armor reduction value, a longer base duration, make his slow from 1 and 2 WAY stronger.. again no frost would complain abot that but be happy, and it would be an easy change to make..

For nyx, just dont touch anything but make her mind control use your weapon or have really dramitcally increased damage and a huge taunt aura or something turning him into a resonator basically..

For grendel you just give his abilities slightly more scaling damage and give him more armor and energy aswell with his nourish..

give defense to excalibur, give some sort of regen to his exalted blade, or added defense from his javelins, make every enemy hit give you a damage reducing buff for a duration..

 

these are SIMPLE solutions, which if they just throw into every update would make a huge change and bring SO much life back into these frames..

just look at how popular saryn and ember are now, these are day 1 frames that are still SO much fun! so strong and are able to do all the content in the game.

Edited by SmokinDice
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8 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

Again, you misunderstood.

What a bold and incorrect assumption.

8 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

They have information from usage data that things are relatively fine. there arent any glaring issues that need to be addressed immediately.

Oberon literally has an ability that lacks any visual indication and has lacked that proper animation since his last rework. So if we are talking about things that are "relatively fine", I must remind you that does not equate to them being "fine". 

 

12 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

They DID state that alienating older players who have used frames for a long time is a bad decision which is why they dont touch older frames unless they absolutely need to.

8 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

If this is the case, then we need to increase the amount of abilities you can infuse in The Helminth system. If DE doesn't want to rework frames, then let's players do them themselves.

My thoughts exactly; if they are indeed afraid of upsetting individuals who happen to appreciate underwhelming abilities then they should allow for players to have the ability to add more than one Helminth ability. 

Alongside being able to infuse more abilities, I had suggested in one of my forum posts to add any "reworked" abilities for a frame to the Helminth system:

Quote

Introduce new ("reworked") abilities for frames:

There are many brilliant alternative abilities proposed on the forums. These rework threads are often met with criticism regarding the loss of an ability that they enjoy using. It would be interesting to see some of the more prominent abilities from the developers or community being added to the helminth system, allowing for players to pick and choose their "reworks". 

To summarize, instead of reworking or changing an ability of a warframe, the ability is added to the helminth system to be unlocked.

 

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  • _Anise_ changed the title to aren't planning reworks?, what's the point in warframe feedback forum ?
10 minutes ago, TehGrief said:

Oberon literally has an ability that lacks any visual indication and has lacked that proper animation since his last rework. So if we are talking about things that are "relatively fine", I must remind you that does not equate to them being "fine".

 

Forgot oberon even existed tbh. And im not oblivious to the fact that issues DO exist. I cant speak for DE or force them to fix things. All im saying is that, in their eyes they have more pressing issues and that there are only so many hours in a day.

 

10 minutes ago, TehGrief said:

What a bold and incorrect assumption.

 

If you thought that, and what it appeared to be, DE said they were never going to touch old stuff, then you did misunderstand. 
If thats not what you intended to say then i misunderstood what and how you wrote it. Just another case of miscommunication to due lack of body language and intonation. #textproblems

Edited by Zhoyzu
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Posted (edited)
Just now, TehGrief said:

It is frustrating to think that the only progress we will ever see is going to be new; once something is released it is merely added to the pile of other rotting content

thanks for adding the quotes, I personally was thinking when he said that .. "ok, sounds like you have a job opening for someone to work on keeping old content relevant ?"

  

Just now, Zhoyzu said:

Most those people dont even play the frames they want reworked which is why they are always so off the wall bad.

I played banshee enough to feel she needed a rework, but I am in two minds about her a little now. realized she can basically just press 4 to shield gate exploit, at least on enemies that let her use her abilities.

Edited by _Anise_
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i think a lot of people here missed the main point pablo have made there. they werent planning any new reworks because they did not result in the frames being played more in the long term. thats wasted dev time that could be used for things that actually get played long term.

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Same as always: for people to post less than half-baked rework ideas, often for frames that don't need one, and for feedback on recently released frames if they lack a megathread.

 

But in all seriousness Pablo's comment shouldn't be a surprise to anyone as all reworks we have gotten either released alongside a Prime/Deluxe release or became a focal point of an update after asking for their changes for years. And since all the frames that could use touchups already got a Deluxe, Prime, or already had a chance at a rework cough Hydroid cough. There shouldn't even be an expectation for them to get changes unless people continue to hound them for it.

Plus there is also the very real possibility that their metrics indicate that there isn't a critical need to update old frames. Frames like Loki, Valkyr, and Inaros (all of which have had years of rework requests) all maintain a base of "mains" and/or maintain a practical use with their current kit. So even if reworks for frames like these are desired there wouldn't appear that doing so would increase their usage.

The only exception to all of this is Hydroid who'll probably end up in a worse boat than Vauban as he did get a (failed) rework already.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Zeclem said:

people here missed the main point pablo have made there. they werent planning any new reworks because they did not result in the frames being played more in the long term

I don't think reworks should be done for the sole purpose of getting people/numbers up on a frame! I think they should be done to help gameplay on older frames feel as good as it does on some of the newer ones. wisp is a awsome example of a well designed high synergistic kit!

her clone puts activates her passive stealth because she is technically airborne, if it flies though her motes it picks up motes moving faster and hitting everything with electricity along the way, breach teleports to her motes, also makes her clone beach and well baseline just beache's, everything interacts with every other thing except her ultimate!

 

Edited by _Anise_
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I'd imagine that just adding synergy between the abilities that are already there shouldn't annoy many people, if any at all. If reworking a frame from the ground up is too time intensive to justify I get that, but there are some frames which really do feel quite lacking after all these years. Adding some extra synergy between abilities can help make the frames feel fresher, get a buff and keep the kit that old timers don't want to lose and surely wouldn't be too time intensive compared to a full rework. 

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5 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

i think a lot of people here missed the main point pablo have made there. they werent planning any new reworks because they did not result in the frames being played more in the long term. thats wasted dev time that could be used for things that actually get played long term.

That's not the entirety of what he said. He said reworks to frames like Ash aren't likely to increase play-time "unless in the process of reworking him I break him and make him godlike" (https://youtu.be/Ql_W9_2-18M?t=1735). And it's like, yeah... If you don't fix the frame up and make it good people still aren't going to play it. Do a good job and people will. Before Wukong's rework you rarely saw Wukongs, now he's the most popular of all of them. There aren't many frames left that still need large reworks, so stopping early when they've almost updated them all doesn't make much sense to me. It's not very encouraging, either.

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Just now, _Anise_ said:

I don't think reworks should be done for the sole purpose of getting people/numbers up on a frame! I think they should be done to help gameplay on older frames free as good as it does on some of the newer ones. wisp is a awsome example of a well designed high synergistic kit!

her clone puts activates her passive stealth because she is technically airborne, if it flies though her motes it picks up motes moving faster and hitting everything with electricity along the way, breach teleports to her motes, also makes her clone beach and well baseline just beache's, everything interacts with every other thing except her ultimate!

here is the thing though, how do you measure how good a frame is without numbers of people playing it? you cant, because thats really the only objective measurement one can have over a frame. 

i personally think nyx and zephyr are quite great frames, and majority of the community disagrees with me on that. i personally think inaros is bad, and again, majority of the community disagrees as well. you simply cant measure this in any other way as a developer. 

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1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

That's not the entirety of what he said. He said reworks to frames like Ash aren't likely to increase play-time "unless in the process of reworking him I break him and make him godlike" (https://youtu.be/Ql_W9_2-18M?t=1735). And it's like, yeah... If you don't fix the frame up and make it good people still aren't going to play it. Do a good job and people will. Before Wukong's rework you rarely saw Wukongs, now he's the most popular of all of them. There aren't many frames left that still need large reworks, so stopping early when they've almost updated them all doesn't make much sense to me. It's not very encouraging, either.

so your idea of a fixed frame is making it busted? 

and ive seen plenty of wukongs before rework. just as much as i am seeing now. 

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10 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

so your idea of a fixed frame is making it busted?

Nah, just that I found his reasoning to be odd. He says that a lot of frames don't see an increase in use after a rework, but a lot of reworks have kind of sucked. Doing a bad job on some reworks in the past doesn't really seem like a good reason to stop doing reworks in the future. Leaving frames like Hydroid and Loki where they are because they don't feel like fixing them isn't really something I see a reason to applaud.

15 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

and ive seen plenty of wukongs before rework. just as much as i am seeing now. 

Mmm I really doubt that. Wukong Prime is the number one most popular frame in the game as of the 2020 stats by a pretty large margin, and he absolutely was not that popular before his rework. He was in a bad enough place for DE to have to give him special attention, after all.

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42 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I don't think reworks should be done for the sole purpose of getting people/numbers up on a frame! I think they should be done to help gameplay on older frames feel as good as it does on some of the newer ones. wisp is a awsome example of a well designed high synergistic kit!

 

 

arguably Wisp is a perfect example of a poorly designed frame with fewer synergies than most

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1 hour ago, Zhoyzu said:

Again, you misunderstood. They have information from usage data that things are relatively fine. there arent any glaring issues that need to be addressed immediately. Not once did they say they would never touch old content to bring it back into the fold. 

Do some frames need a slight TLC touch? sure, but its not a pressing issue.

They DID state that alienating older players who have used frames for a long time is a bad decision which is why they dont touch older frames unless they absolutely need to.

Id be IRATE if they overhauled Frost or Banshee to the degree the "rework" threads want. which is usually a terrible idea for more than just a plethora of reasons. Most those people dont even play the frames they want reworked which is why they are always so off the wall bad.

Which is why i adovate them using Helmnith to let players do their own reworks. 

By that i mean develop a bunch of thematically appropriate abilities along with tweaks to existing ones for a Frame, put them on the Helminth and allow the players to make the choice on whether to swap out existing abilities for the new or altered ones. 
Hell, they probably have dozens of ability concepts for every frame that would only need minimal work to bring to life. 

Imagine a world where they add an altered version of Snow Globe to the Helminth that instead of protecting a location, locks a target in a sphere of ice that suffocates them and causes their bullets to ricochet inside it. 
Then you as a long time Frost player who loves the current Snow Globe can keep it as is, but someone else who wants a more offensive oriented Cold based frame can opt for the altered version. 

Or an altered Kraken for Hydroid that turns it into a Sentinel type Companion that snatches enemies one at a time up to a max and drags them along behind you (Acitvating pilfering swarm too).

I'd like reworks to older frames because ive used them for years and would like something new within that same theme. But at the same time, I also want to be able to use the existing ability sets when i want to. 
Helminth lets all sides enjoy the game. 

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