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Teshin Gameplay is how Warframe Gameplay supposed to be.


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5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If you stop and let the enemies do their thing then you'll notice that many of the newer enemies actually do different things. All of the Corpus additions since Fortuna are really good, as are the Infested units in Deimos. The enemies only seem so unengaging because players are allowed to trivialize them.

Yes but they'd have to rework all weapons, skills, damage types, statuses, mod combos, give them counters to things like invisibility that basically don't exist in game, greatly narrow the insane gaps in survivability and damage between Warframes, almost everything combat formula related in order to not trivialize them. I don't care what they, or anything else that's "dangerous" can do because the answer is always the same - flatten it. Just don't stand next to a toxic. You'd need to rework the entire game to change that.

I would like that game I think but it's also not just an impossible asking based on how much effort they put into reworks, it's also against the wishes of a huge part of the playerbase.

I agree that it's kinda unsatisfactory but I don't think they're even capable of going back to old Warframe at this point. I personally just want more actual high level gameplay options beyond 5 random missions a day or an hourly locked random mission.. Please bring on steel path arbitrations, relics, maybe a game mode featuring the uncut, un nerfed versions of our enemies that got kneecapped too.. Director's cut :3

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54 minutes ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

Thus is the balancing act of the game.

If DE chooses to slow down the game they need to rebalance EVERYTHING including mods. (IE: they need to change into being equippable perks. Think Destiny's Outlaw & Firefly)

Enemy count would need to dramatically go down. (Notice how Kahl & Veso never fought more than 5 enemies at one time.)

And most importantly drop rates would need to skyrocket.

Just think. A 3 minute mission now would be a 10 or 15 minute mission as Kahl, Veso, or Teshin.

Now imagine farming Relics, mods, parts, Kuva, or Holokeys.

It's a delicate balance. DE might be planning to slow the game down but it means the death of everything we love atm.

Mobility, Mods, etc.

I don't see them doing this. But the gameplay as Teshin & others really gives us an appreciation for the Warframes and truly shows "WHY" they are revered and feared by all.

A slower-paced game that is more rewarding and allows you to soak in the gun- and melee-based gameplay experience. Sounds like a much better game to me, but I can respect that most WF players don't want that. They want to rush through the gameplay as fast as possible to get their rewards. And apparently, according to you, they also like low drop rates since that's part of the "everything you love atm" that you think will die.

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On 2021-07-18 at 9:31 PM, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

In regards to balance, Destiny 2 also has only 3 playable classes, and I think 4 subclasses for each. Warframe has many frames and it will only continue growing.

Think of that as a failure of design that will swallow the game

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6 hours ago, Lakais said:

I like it when my melee combos nicely with my movement and shooting. I feel like I am this superpowered space-ninja when my actions not only feel like they have gravity but that there's a sense of grace to it. 

This, this all day. If DE takes anything away from this thread let it be this.

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22 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

The thing about Tenshin that impressed me the most is that his melee hit has that sense of impact to it, you can feel the weight of his strike, I don't know why but it just do.

I’d noticed the damage numbers weren’t visible. I wonder if maybe turning it into “how many hits it takes” versus “how much damage is done” might be a thing

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12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’d noticed the damage numbers weren’t visible. I wonder if maybe turning it into “how many hits it takes” versus “how much damage is done” might be a thing

You mean people play with the damage numbers turned on?  o.O  (I'm joking.  I know I'm exceedingly weird.)  Personally, I play with damage floaters off, enemy names and healthbars off, highlight my pet off, show teammate names off...  Frankly it annoys me that I have to turn "Show Enemy Healthbars" back on if I have to fight Profit Taker because somehow she's bugged and the one healthbar left at the top of the screen only ever shows her "core" health.  For an Eidolon, on the very rare occasion I bother to fight one, it's whatever limb I'm aiming at.  But for Profit Taker, nope, have to turn them on for her *and* the Knock-spam Horde, or I have no clue which leg to shoot at.  >n<

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14 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

You mean people play with the damage numbers turned on?  o.O  (I'm joking.  I know I'm exceedingly weird.)  Personally, I play with damage floaters off, enemy names and healthbars off, highlight my pet off, show teammate names off...  Frankly it annoys me that I have to turn "Show Enemy Healthbars" back on if I have to fight Profit Taker because somehow she's bugged and the one healthbar left at the top of the screen only ever shows her "core" health.  For an Eidolon, on the very rare occasion I bother to fight one, it's whatever limb I'm aiming at.  But for Profit Taker, nope, have to turn them on for her *and* the Knock-spam Horde, or I have no clue which leg to shoot at.  >n<

Yeah. I was actually surprised at how much I appreciate that little un-intrusive healthbar at the top of the screen. When I turned off healthbars I was originally thinking “Reduce it entirely to TTK”, but that little healthbar can be a small guide I can glance up to to see how well I’m doing in a fight and whether I need to change tactic.

On top of the healthbar not only showing core health, I’d like some small visual feedback when striking an invincible part; I find I have to turn on numbers to see whether anything is striking true, and would love a small grey hit feedback indicator akin to the red headshot indicator or something to tell me if I’ve hit invincible

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the tennocon game play was basically a single player action genre style. Warframe is, and has always been, a horde shooter.

If you want the teshin gameplay to be the default then you're playing the wrong game.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

The thing about Tenshin that impressed me the most is that his melee hit has that sense of impact to it, you can feel the weight of his strike, I don't know why but it just do.

A little bit of screen shake and clear sound effects for the strikes. Definitely more impactful than our melee weapons.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

The thing about Tenshin that impressed me the most is that his melee hit has that sense of impact to it, you can feel the weight of his strike, I don't know why but it just do.

Because he doesn’t have attack speed mods.

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11 hours ago, OmegaDonut said:

Warframe isn’t really that far off, DE just needs to rein in mindless AOE.  
People say Destiny does difficulty better, but a big reason is the AOE options are sparse. Heavy weapon ammo is limited, and abilities have cool downs.  This forces players to engage enemies with single target damage or team shoot a big baddie.  In warframe, anything under steel path, and most of steel path, is a slog through a quick mindless mission with someone using a nuke frame to headbutt their 4 key through the map. 
Add cool downs to heavy hitting AOE abilities, reduce splash damage to aoe weapons, give enemies in missions time to breath and the game will feel a lot better, and open the game up to a lot of frames and weapons previously unused too. 

Who says that? Because it’s no one in the Destiny community. The forums are forever filled with people complaining about arbitrary light levels, or how some content is an absolute slog just because the enemies are sponges that can one shot you. Difficult in destiny is completely numbers based. It’s exactly the same as warframe.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb HerpDerpy:

the tennocon game play was basically a single player action genre style. Warframe is, and has always been, a horde shooter.

If you want the teshin gameplay to be the default then you're playing the wrong game.

Well, the Teshin gameplay reminded me of the first  months (years?) of Warframe. It already was a horde shooter back then, but with  a slower pacing, the coop aspect was stronger. The days of Bratton, Burston and Latron...
The kind of gameplay that was and ist still advertised in each and every trailer. Teshin's speed and kit would be totally fine back then.

Now? In times os Kuva Bramma, Bullet jumping and endless energy and ability spam? Not so much...

Perhaps Teshin's level just reminded those people how liked the horde shooter back then what slowly disappeared over the years...

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13 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Yeah, no. As someone that's been with the game since "legacy Warframe": I don't miss the days of burning through all revives during the TUTORIAL mission; I don't miss the days of getting toxin clouded to death via rooms filled by a (or multiple) mutalist ospreys; I don't miss getting almost perma-planted to the ground via Bursas spawning; I definitely don't miss the stamina gauge. You enjoying those kinds of things just goes to the BDSM fetish certain types have.

I'd say infested are at their strongest currently, especially when surrounded by crowds; though I also don't run god-builds (which is a player choice not game forced).

While the new stuff looks interesting and could be a new avenue to go alongside everything else it isn't where the game should full-on shift to. Warframe shouldn't go Dark Souls to satisfy BDSM fetishists. If anything should change it'd be reducing particular mods and "god-builds", while also putting in more bosses in the vein of Jackal where it requires actually engaging with the fight instead of nuking it. I imagine you're in the crowd that whines about days of old, yet ignore that the option exists to have it back via not running god-builds and/or maxed out mods. That's a choice.

As someone that's been with the game since legacy Warframe, I do miss the days back when it felt like I was playing a game instead of a running simulator with extra steps. But I won't say that Warframe was a better game back then as there have been lots of improvements since then that I wouldn't want DE to remove. All I'm asking is for DE to continue striving to make Warframe a better game. 

Even legacy Warframe was nowhere near Souls level. I don't know why people keep on making these comparisons. Legacy Warframe was still... a very easy  game to play. But current Warframe I could literally play an hour survival with my eyes closed. You know your game balance is broken when meta builds are where people can AFK or just press a key every minute. There is an inbetween from Dark Souls to Warframe. It's not mutually one or the other and that's the balance I would prefer. I agree, if I wanted to play a From Software game, I'd play a From Software game. But making Warframe more engaging will not turn it into a Dark Souls game. It will just turn it into a slightly less broken version of Warframe.

I could hold back, but then that literally means removing content from the game. By admitting that players need to nerf themselves, you are also admitting that there is fault with Warframe's power scaling. A core mechanic to games is progression. You are suggesting to take out the one thing that makes a game, a game. Now, I'd be all for your suggestion if it wasn't for the fact that some parts of the game would be nearly impossible, or the most incredible way to waste time. You try doing an entire Lich hunt with only a Mk1 Braton and an Excalibur with no mods. You try completing Steel Path only doing that.

Ironically, Dark Souls is the perfect example of a game where nerfing yourself makes the game more fun. Running naked, speed running, running with a limited set of gear. But here's the thing, it's perfectly doable within a reasonable amount of time even while gimping yourself. Warframe is not that and that's because of it's broken power scaling. If Warframe was balanced, then it would be perfectly reasonable to do a Steel Path starchart clear with Mk1 gear. But content is balanced around the top 20% of Warframes and weapons which leaves a lot of other choices in the dust. By saying players should nerf themselves, you are telling them to not use content, and to not play content. You are not telling them to challenge themselves. But if you can complete all nodes in Steel Path without any exploiting, cheating or hacking using beginner gear/naked, then I will gladly take my words back.

At the end of the day, this is DE's game and I will probably continue to play Warframe for the foreseeable future. But if they were to make Warframe a better game, I might be more proud of saying, "I play Warframe, and you should play it too".

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vor 32 Minuten schrieb Goodwill:

Warframe is not that and that's because of it's broken power scaling. If Warframe was balanced, then it would be perfectly reasonable to do a Steel Path starchart clear with Mk1 gear. 

No one in the history of gaming has ever said that “balanced” means being able to beat literally any content with literally any gear. Stop redefining words.

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On 2021-07-18 at 9:49 AM, (NSW)Mbek said:

It's not how Warframe "supposed" to be, it's how Warframe "used" to be.

^This. If we go back to how it used to be, expect stuff like coptering to make a return. There's a reason why parkour/bullet jumping and all that were added, and the game has been far more fun because of it.

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Going off-topic here, so going into spoiler tag.
 

Spoiler

If I were to rebalance Warframe, the first thing I'd do, is chage the +% based values to fixed amounts, additive to base stats. (Pressure Point adding 120 base damage to melee attacks, a fire mod adding 60 base fire damage to melee attacks, crit adding %5 to the weapon's %5 = %10 new crit chance... etc)

Based on all weapons' stats, and the possible mod combinations, we would now have a table of min/max raw damage values (with MR ranges based on weapon Mastery Ranks).

Based on that, all enemies can be balanced with HP, Shield, Armor values, and resistances that achieve the appropriate "time to kill" that meets whatever design goal I have for the enemies in question. (whether they be fodder enemies, farmed for resources, or encounters that I want people to take time to deal with.)

With these balancing passes done, I would cap armor values for enemies that infinitely scale in endless missions, while perhaps allowing their health/shields to increase.

Clearly, Warframe abilities would need a similar balance pass.

 

This is the sort of balancing Warframe needs... and as I said, I'd still keep the fodder enemies clearable in a power fantasy "time to kill"... but it clearly opens up a much broader range of potential design space, with defined limits and values that don't scale into the 1000's of percents.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Deminisis said:

A little bit of screen shake and clear sound effects for the strikes. Definitely more impactful than our melee weapons.

ive watched a few storys and the fights that seem the most impact full never end in one shot they seem to be 2 - 3 shots minimum so for them to make melee more impactful as if enimys dont die in one hit they seem strong but if your weapon kills em fast your weapon feels strong but does one shotting make you feel strong or does it make the enimys feel weak?

as you saw when teshin was fighting that sentient it took multiple hits to take it down and the fight seemed more impactful

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1 minute ago, lowgrav said:

ive watched a few storys and the fights that seem the most impact full never end in one shot they seem to be 2 - 3 shots minimum so for them to make melee more impactful as if enimys dont die in one hit they seem strong but if your weapon kills em fast your weapon feels strong but does one shotting make you feel strong or does it make the enimys feel weak?

as you saw when teshin was fighting that sentient it took multiple hits to take it down and the fight seemed more impactful

What made the fights seem more impactful, was the animations rooting the players and locking them in place for the entire follow-through. It made the combat look clunky and hard to control, awkward and annoying, from my perspective. It's the trade-off they need, though, either slow, powerful, impactful single attacks, or quick, fluid, precise, effortless elegance. I clearly have a bias for effortless elegance... instead of powerful, impactful, rooting.

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11 hours ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

Thus is the balancing act of the game.

If DE chooses to slow down the game they need to rebalance EVERYTHING including mods. (IE: they need to change into being equippable perks. Think Destiny's Outlaw & Firefly)

Enemy count would need to dramatically go down. (Notice how Kahl & Veso never fought more than 5 enemies at one time.)

And most importantly drop rates would need to skyrocket.

Just think. A 3 minute mission now would be a 10 or 15 minute mission as Kahl, Veso, or Teshin.

Now imagine farming Relics, mods, parts, Kuva, or Holokeys.

It's a delicate balance. DE might be planning to slow the game down but it means the death of everything we love atm.

Mobility, Mods, etc.

I don't see them doing this. But the gameplay as Teshin & others really gives us an appreciation for the Warframes and truly shows "WHY" they are revered and feared by all.

Anyone can replicate that gameplay now, but their excuse is "I shouldn't have to nerf myself, the game should do it for me". As if they're actually not aware they're not the only person playing the game.

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1 hour ago, Goodwill said:

As someone that's been with the game since legacy Warframe, I do miss the days back when it felt like I was playing a game instead of a running simulator with extra steps. But I won't say that Warframe was a better game back then as there have been lots of improvements since then that I wouldn't want DE to remove. All I'm asking is for DE to continue striving to make Warframe a better game. 

Even legacy Warframe was nowhere near Souls level. I don't know why people keep on making these comparisons. Legacy Warframe was still... a very easy  game to play. But current Warframe I could literally play an hour survival with my eyes closed. You know your game balance is broken when meta builds are where people can AFK or just press a key every minute. There is an inbetween from Dark Souls to Warframe. It's not mutually one or the other and that's the balance I would prefer. I agree, if I wanted to play a From Software game, I'd play a From Software game. But making Warframe more engaging will not turn it into a Dark Souls game. It will just turn it into a slightly less broken version of Warframe.

I could hold back, but then that literally means removing content from the game. By admitting that players need to nerf themselves, you are also admitting that there is fault with Warframe's power scaling. A core mechanic to games is progression. You are suggesting to take out the one thing that makes a game, a game. Now, I'd be all for your suggestion if it wasn't for the fact that some parts of the game would be nearly impossible, or the most incredible way to waste time. You try doing an entire Lich hunt with only a Mk1 Braton and an Excalibur with no mods. You try completing Steel Path only doing that.

Ironically, Dark Souls is the perfect example of a game where nerfing yourself makes the game more fun. Running naked, speed running, running with a limited set of gear. But here's the thing, it's perfectly doable within a reasonable amount of time even while gimping yourself. Warframe is not that and that's because of it's broken power scaling. If Warframe was balanced, then it would be perfectly reasonable to do a Steel Path starchart clear with Mk1 gear. But content is balanced around the top 20% of Warframes and weapons which leaves a lot of other choices in the dust. By saying players should nerf themselves, you are telling them to not use content, and to not play content. You are not telling them to challenge themselves. But if you can complete all nodes in Steel Path without any exploiting, cheating or hacking using beginner gear/naked, then I will gladly take my words back.

At the end of the day, this is DE's game and I will probably continue to play Warframe for the foreseeable future. But if they were to make Warframe a better game, I might be more proud of saying, "I play Warframe, and you should play it too".

Ah the typical "I have all mods and use god builds thus the game is a cake walk with no challenge" b.s. You can easily recapture some of that by having a setup (we're all given 3 by default) that doesn't include "god builds" or maxed out mods. Also I'd wager there's a difference between the two of us on what defines "better", for me that's continuing to expand the story into new territories with little put into amping challenge. I don't care if Tau for instance has enemies that are stronger than what we currently have or not, so long as they're different and tied to a new interesting story.

Once again burned through all revives in the TUTORIAL mission way back in the days of "legacy WF" to the point where I literally came within seconds of uninstalling and being done. That's pretty leaned towards Souls territory. Engaging to me is more things like Jackal where you have to go in and interact with a boss to dismantle them, not getting hit with massive damage or some other thing like flame/toxin damage. If anything what'd need to be done is something "god build" runners wouldn't want, which is to slam down on the "god build" mods; though even that would only work for a time till a new "god build" rose up leading to the exact same spot again. All because people break down things to their most basic cheese-able solution, then whine cause the maker of the game isn't making it difficult.

The New War bits shown do that EXACT THING, they remove the Tenno's mods, weapons, powers, etc in place giving Grineer grunt, Corpus footsoldier, and Teshin's limited arsenals. I'm literally well beyond the use of the word "progression", considering how its a go-to for every person that wants to have their cake and eat it too. You want difficulty? You're going to have to take a hit somewhere and DE only has a select amount of ways to achieve that. One of which is chopping down "god build" mods. Also that isn't what makes a game, a game which is the interactability and control over your character within the story. ROFL, you just showed that there is difficulty/challenge out there; its just not in the styling you want. That you have to build or can't progress. As for me doing any of it, not remotely cause I have absolutely no interest in that vein of things. I'm here for the story and to just hop in for a few runs, not to stroke/boost my ego.

If we're diving into Dark Souls, then what you're in the vein of is a mage type whining cause the game is lacking for you; meanwhile others running other builds are having plenty of difficulty/challenge. Continuing the hypothetical you're not only whining but demanding it be even harder to match your "mage", which means people already having a rough time as a result have to deal with that potential. Not to mention how DE chasing that b.s. is what led to the string of not so great/well received updates, cause things like Liches (in their original state) are meant towards the ones wanting "challenge"; Railjack in its original state was aimed towards people wanting challenge; etc.

Funny I can easily say that quote, if only for the scifi aesthetic alone; though plenty of other reasons are on the list too. Then again I'm not nor ever will be a tryhard that sells a game based on if it beats me into the ground or not; rather selling it based on its story/aesthetic/characters. I've said it in other threads and I'll repeat it here as well: If WF is going to aim for anything it should be towards Mass Effect stylings, not Dark Souls or that entire vein.

Edited by CrimsonXX
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On 2021-07-19 at 1:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

Yes, of course. Across the board, systems-level nerfs. Massive nerfs. Nerf the player, nerf the enemies, nerf it all. Once everything is happily nerfed into the dirt where its equal we can finally have some consistency and from there interesting gameplay.

Ever wonder why DE keeps having to design content that throws away all of the gear you own? Like how in TSD the final segment with you escaping Lua and fighting Stalker yeets all of your equipment into space and makes you use the same Operator and Void Beam as everyone else? Or how in TWW all of your equipment is left behind for your jaunt through the mountain pass and your fight with the Maw? Or how you're forced to use your Operator and Void Beam to fight the Kuva Guardians? Or how the Nihil fight makes use of exactly *none* of the equipment you've earned? Or how the Exploiter fight is built in such a way that your gear doesn't really matter? Or how the 30 minute New War gameplay trailer doesn't show a single second of Warframe-based gameplay as it throws everything you've ever owned away because they have to in order to give you the experience they intend?

Turns out that being so absurdly overpowered that nothing interesting ever happens or ever will... might be kind of boring. Maybe you don't see many games doing this because it doesn't result in good gameplay and makes further development harder? 🤔

Agreed.

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6 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Ah the typical "I have all mods and use god builds thus the game is a cake walk with no challenge" b.s. You can easily recapture some of that by having a setup (we're all given 3 by default) that doesn't include "god builds" or maxed out mods. Also I'd wager there's a difference between the two of us on what defines "better", for me that's continuing to expand the story into new territories with little put into amping challenge. I don't care if Tau for instance has enemies that are stronger than what we currently have or not, so long as they're different and tied to a new interesting story.

Once again burned through all revives in the TUTORIAL mission way back in the days of "legacy WF" to the point where I literally came within seconds of uninstalling and being done. That's pretty leaned towards Souls territory. Engaging to me is more things like Jackal where you have to go in and interact with a boss to dismantle them, not getting hit with massive damage or some other thing like flame/toxin damage. If anything what'd need to be done is something "god build" runners wouldn't want, which is to slam down on the "god build" mods; though even that would only work for a time till a new "god build" rose up leading to the exact same spot again. All because people break down things to their most basic cheese-able solution, then whine cause the maker of the game isn't making it difficult.

The New War bits shown do that EXACT THING, they remove the Tenno's mods, weapons, powers, etc in place giving Grineer grunt, Corpus footsoldier, and Teshin's limited arsenals. I'm literally well beyond the use of the word "progression", considering how its a go-to for every person that wants to have their cake and eat it too. You want difficulty? You're going to have to take a hit somewhere and DE only has a select amount of ways to achieve that. One of which is chopping down "god build" mods. Also that isn't what makes a game, a game which is the interactability and control over your character within the story. ROFL, you just showed that there is difficulty/challenge out there; its just not in the styling you want. That you have to build or can't progress. As for me doing any of it, not remotely cause I have absolutely no interest in that vein of things. I'm here for the story and to just hop in for a few runs, not to stroke/boost my ego.

If we're diving into Dark Souls, then what you're in the vein of is a mage type whining cause the game is lacking for you; meanwhile others running other builds are having plenty of difficulty/challenge. Continuing the hypothetical you're not only whining but demanding it be even harder to match your "mage", which means people already having a rough time as a result have to deal with that potential. Not to mention how DE chasing that b.s. is what led to the string of not so great/well received updates, cause things like Liches (in their original state) are meant towards the ones wanting "challenge"; Railjack in its original state was aimed towards people wanting challenge; etc.

Funny I can easily say that quote, if only for the scifi aesthetic alone; though plenty of other reasons are on the list too. Then again I'm not nor ever will be a tryhard that sells a game based on if it beats me into the ground or not; rather selling it based on its story/aesthetic/characters. I've said it in other threads and I'll repeat it here as well: If WF is going to aim for anything it should be towards Mass Effect stylings, not Dark Souls or that entire vein.

I don't even play god builds. I play Vauban with Grinlok or Founders set. Far from being god builds because I do know how to do strong builds, I just choose not to. In saying that, I am not going to stop playing my favorite weapons or frames because someone tells me to. Sometimes I play Ash with Daikyuu, Despair and Nikana and play like a real space ninja. But the thing is, none of this makes Warframe a better game. They are merely ways to cope with crappy balancing. If it's up to the player to fix the game, then the game is obviously broken. 

You are the first person I've heard to burn through all of their revives on tutorial. In saying that, I'm not going to hold it against you. A mate of mine died in the tutorial stage of Cosmic Break which is... an achievement to say the least. But honestly, anything can happen and if you can run through all of your revives, then I'm sure other people could too.

Warframe is not a Souls game. Warframe is not a Warriors game. Warframe is whatever DE wants it to be and if it leans to either of those side, then that is what Warframe will be. As players, we can choose to keep on playing, or to move on to another game. Either way, nothing either of us say will change DE's direction by our own ramblings. Metrics will determine the course of Warframe and I'm more than happy to let DE do DE.


I think this is going nowhere. You obviously found a hill you would die on and I can't change your mind on that. But good for you. When you want something, you got to stand by it. Although I disagree with you, I don't think you are wrong overall. 

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