Teshin Gameplay is how Warframe Gameplay supposed to be.

[Joezone619]

You know, operator gameplay is already pretty similar, just without the melee part... wink wink, nudge nudge, when operator melee DE?

[Hypernaut1]

19 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Bullet jumping is probably THE best parkour mechanic in video games since grappling hooks (I may be hyperbolic but humor me if you can). Though if I may say, I do feel something is wrong when bullet jumping is faster than sprinting.

I love the control that bullet jumping and aim gliding allows, but my issue with Parkour 2.0 is that it has made just about all other methods of movement obsolete. You don't need to wall hop, you don't even need to walk or sprint. Bullet jumping is faster, safer, and more versatile than your other movement options.

If I may make a suggestion, I would at least ask one of two things; a) make bullet jumping slower than sprinting, or b) make sprinting faster than bullet jumping. I would assume a portion of players would prefer option b) and I'm cool with that.

Also, fix the camera when wall latching. I love shooting while wall latching, but the camera gives me flashback of DMC1.

I felt this way too, but then I realized that of I could just bound through the environment in real life, I would do that over running too. 

I do wish they gave us an option to have a less twirly bullet jump though. To me it would look better if we were just hopping like ninja instead of twirling through the air like a ballerina.

[Vlada91]

Or just have another game mod to choose to play without leveling sistem. Like more realistic aprouch. Playing with what frame and weapons you want. Ignoring all the mods and leveling. Just have mechanic when you built or buy weapon use it just for fun and thats it. No more sponges enemy with killing level 100 enemies. And im forced to play with sniper because he have best damage for example then any other weapon and i even dont like snipers. Who is crazy enough and have time to farm every mod to max and everything else's. This game need to relax because its not rpg its something totally unnecessary. Game is interesting in so many way and having option to just play and enjoy the game wuold be even better without leveling and moding. 

[Goodwill]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I felt this way too, but then I realized that of I could just bound through the environment in real life, I would do that over running too. 

I do wish they gave us an option to have a less twirly bullet jump though. To me it would look better if we were just hopping like ninja instead of twirling through the air like a ballerina.

I guess kangaroos do that so... touché.

I think it would be cool and I'd pay for this; if they had animation packs that changed how your Warframe moves. Gives them different jumping, sliding, wall running (skipping) and bullet jumping animations.

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

I guess kangaroos do that so... touché.

I think it would be cool and I'd pay for this; if they had animation packs that changed how your Warframe moves. Gives them different jumping, sliding, wall running (skipping) and bullet jumping animations.

I would change the forward roll to be a dash like Limbos too. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 hours ago, Goodwill said:

But content is balanced around the top 20% of Warframes and weapons which leaves a lot of other choices in the dust.

What are you talking about?

edit: Wait, are you specifically talking about Steel Path? I may have misinterpreted something

[CrimsonXX]

1 hour ago, Goodwill said:

I don't even play god builds. I play Vauban with Grinlok or Founders set. Far from being god builds because I do know how to do strong builds, I just choose not to. In saying that, I am not going to stop playing my favorite weapons or frames because someone tells me to. Sometimes I play Ash with Daikyuu, Despair and Nikana and play like a real space ninja. But the thing is, none of this makes Warframe a better game. They are merely ways to cope with crappy balancing. If it's up to the player to fix the game, then the game is obviously broken. 

You are the first person I've heard to burn through all of their revives on tutorial. In saying that, I'm not going to hold it against you. A mate of mine died in the tutorial stage of Cosmic Break which is... an achievement to say the least. But honestly, anything can happen and if you can run through all of your revives, then I'm sure other people could too.

Warframe is not a Souls game. Warframe is not a Warriors game. Warframe is whatever DE wants it to be and if it leans to either of those side, then that is what Warframe will be. As players, we can choose to keep on playing, or to move on to another game. Either way, nothing either of us say will change DE's direction by our own ramblings. Metrics will determine the course of Warframe and I'm more than happy to let DE do DE.

I think this is going nowhere. You obviously found a hill you would die on and I can't change your mind on that. But good for you. When you want something, you got to stand by it. Although I disagree with you, I don't think you are wrong overall. 

You'll note that I never said to stop doing anything, I pointed out that there is a way of recapturing the essence of what you're talking about. Hell even as it pertains to this thread, you wouldn't be wielding your preferred frame instead using Teshin. Actually it does in the allowing you to approach missions whatever way you want, however you want; you want to go "space ninja" it allows it while also maintaining availability to those of the "guns ablazing" style. THAT makes WF a better game, taking away from it lessens the game; hence why I will always rail against certain content types that would remove options (especially for the b.s. that is "difficulty"/"challenge" cause once again I'm not a tryhard nor ever will be).

I've never taken a poll to check, it should also be pointed out that this is in reference to way back in the day when you popped out of your cryopod to say "hi" to Vor's soldiers as the game was somewhat giving you controls and what not. Not the newer incarnations of the "tutorial mission". Getting surrounded and torn apart by grineer grunts while trying to learn what was what isn't great; it shouldn't even be possible in a tutorial (which last I checked was rectified in the newest version). As for "holding it against me" rofl, I really couldn't care less cause I don't play games to boost my ego. I play games for the stories, characters, universes, and fun to be had within them.

In specific regards I have indeed found my hill, in others I'm willing to budge (like months or years ago I would've been on the hesitant to touch mods side of things; now I'm fine with the idea of having some reigned in to bring the numbers down to better craft encounters). The only thing I want is DE to continue crafting this awesome scifi ARPG, which there is a rarity to.

With this being said you can choose to let this rest cause I've said my stance.

[Goodwill]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What are you talking about?

edit: Wait, are you specifically talking about Steel Path? I may have misinterpreted something

Aah, sorry my bad. Not just Steel Path (includes liches/sisters, arbitrations and other higher end content to varying degrees) and my statement is arguably a gross generalization.

I could clarify, but honestly I should've done that beforehand. Honestly it could be an entire thread in of itself and I think my rants have gone too off-topic so forgive me that I am unwilling to clarify here.

You didn't misinterpret anything as there was never enough information to form a proper interpretation.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Aah, sorry my bad. Not just Steel Path (includes liches/sisters, arbitrations and other higher end content to varying degrees) and my statement is arguably a gross generalization.

I could clarify, but honestly I should've done that beforehand. Honestly it could be an entire thread in of itself and I think my rants have gone too off-topic so forgive me that I am unwilling to clarify here.

You didn't misinterpret anything as there was never enough information to form a proper interpretation.

Ah, cool cool. It was a little weird since we’re constantly getting new content that’s not balanced around Steel Path-level requirements, but I think I get where you’re coming from

[Goodwill]

32 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

You'll note that I never said to stop doing anything, I pointed out that there is a way of recapturing the essence of what you're talking about. Hell even as it pertains to this thread, you wouldn't be wielding your preferred frame instead using Teshin. Actually it does in the allowing you to approach missions whatever way you want, however you want; you want to go "space ninja" it allows it while also maintaining availability to those of the "guns ablazing" style. THAT makes WF a better game, taking away from it lessens the game; hence why I will always rail against certain content types that would remove options (especially for the b.s. that is "difficulty"/"challenge" cause once again I'm not a tryhard nor ever will be).

I've never taken a poll to check, it should also be pointed out that this is in reference to way back in the day when you popped out of your cryopod to say "hi" to Vor's soldiers as the game was somewhat giving you controls and what not. Not the newer incarnations of the "tutorial mission". Getting surrounded and torn apart by grineer grunts while trying to learn what was what isn't great; it shouldn't even be possible in a tutorial (which last I checked was rectified in the newest version). As for "holding it against me" rofl, I really couldn't care less cause I don't play games to boost my ego. I play games for the stories, characters, universes, and fun to be had within them.

In specific regards I have indeed found my hill, in others I'm willing to budge (like months or years ago I would've been on the hesitant to touch mods side of things; now I'm fine with the idea of having some reigned in to bring the numbers down to better craft encounters). The only thing I want is DE to continue crafting this awesome scifi ARPG, which there is a rarity to.

With this being said you can choose to let this rest cause I've said my stance.

Honestly, I'm gonna rest because a) I think I am getting too off-topic. b) I could re-evaluate my stance.

At the end of the day, I would prefer everyone to enjoy Warframe. I could spend that time arguing my opinion but I'm not really offering any solutions or compromises. If I am to argue with you again, I'd at least like to be able to offer a suggestion that players on all sides could somewhat humor. Arguing is pointless - discussing and coming up with solutions would be a much more productive use of this space. But I could re-evaluate my stance to be a bit less stand-off-ish.

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Not just Steel Path (includes liches/sisters, arbitrations and other higher end content to varying degrees) and my statement is arguably a gross generalization.

I wouldn't say a "gross" generalization, I just got done with my first (and likely only) Sister and I can safely say if I were playing anything less durable than Excalibur Umbra it would have been a nightmare.

Enemy-on-player damage is something that is hilariously broken currently which indeed after a certain point does push out several Warframes, mostly those without good base armor or abilities that negate such problems.

The worse part is that the only universal counter to incoming enemy damage is to never stop moving, which also makes aiming for headshots (and aiming in general) significantly harder. This is why people tend to just build one-shot-kill loadouts, because the gameplay does indeed devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after a certain point, and with more and more enemies getting massive adaptive DR/CC immunity there's no real choice for the players at that point but to fight cheese with cheese.

[Goodwill]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ah, cool cool. It was a little weird since we’re constantly getting new content that’s not balanced around Steel Path-level requirements, but I think I get where you’re coming from

You are completely right. New War, Railjack, Necramechs relies on it's own systems and progression that seem to be somewhat disconnected from your Warframe build and progression. To clarify this time, the strength of your Warframe does not determine the strength of your Railjack or Necramech and I assume may play little role in The New war.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Goodwill said:

You are completely right. New War, Railjack, Necramechs relies on it's own systems and progression that seem to be somewhat disconnected from your Warframe build and progression. To clarify this time, the strength of your Warframe does not determine the strength of your Railjack or Necramech and I assume may play little role in The New war.

I was thinking more like quests and Prime parts off the top of my head. Not sure what to expect of the New War, but I wouldn’t expect it to require all the power to do if previous quest releases are anything to go by (could be wrong, of course)

[Goodwill]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I wouldn't say a "gross" generalization, I just got done with my first (and likely only) Sister and I can safely say if I were playing anything less durable than Excalibur Umbra it would have been a nightmare.

Enemy-on-player damage is something that is hilariously broken currently which indeed after a certain point does push out several Warframes, mostly those without good base armor or abilities that negate such problems.

The worse part is that the only universal counter to incoming enemy damage is to never stop moving, which also makes aiming for headshots (and aiming in general) significantly harder. This is why people tend to just build one-shot-kill loadouts, because the gameplay does indeed devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after a certain point, and with more and more enemies getting massive adaptive DR/CC immunity there's no real choice for the players at that point but to fight cheese with cheese.

I agree, especially with the last paragraph.

Hopefully DE tries to close the gap a little bit. I'm fine with certain weapons or Warframes being more effective than another, but not to the point an enemy is balanced around assuming a player will be using the top weapons of their categories.
 

[Goodwill]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I was thinking more like quests and Prime parts off the top of my head. Not sure what to expect of the New War, but I wouldn’t expect it to require all the power to do if previous quest releases are anything to go by (could be wrong, of course)

That too. All things considered, I think our Warframes will have their own section, the question is how much of The New War is playing the unique characters, and how much will be using our own Warframes and arsenals.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

59 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I would change the forward roll to be a dash like Limbos too. 

I’d like to have some PSO straffs left right while aiming. And a back roll  instead of back flip. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Goodwill said:

I agree, especially with the last paragraph.

Hopefully DE tries to close the gap a little bit. I'm fine with certain weapons or Warframes being more effective than another, but not to the point an enemy is balanced around assuming a player will be using the top weapons of their categories.
 

Honestly as much as it might sound odd to say, we might need to reduce both enemy damage and the baseline durability of some of the more face-tank style Warframes. Part of the thing driving the enemy damage up is the need to compensate for Armor-blob frames that at some levels can just stand there and get shot for no real damage.

And to tie this back into the main topic, we can notice how the damage taken by the 3 units in the gameplay demo works, it is noticeable but not insane (Kahl iirc almost ran out of health in the demo), which is where damage in most games should be imo.

I'm not entirely sure what route would be best to take in that regard, but if late game enemies are going to be hysterically durable (outside of one-shot builds) then they really shouldn't also be dealing enough damage to 2-tap most Warframes.

[Goodwill]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly as much as it might sound odd to say, we might need to reduce both enemy damage and the baseline durability of some of the more face-tank style Warframes. Part of the thing driving the enemy damage up is the need to compensate for Armor-blob frames that at some levels can just stand there and get shot for no real damage.

And to tie this back into the main topic, we can notice how the damage taken by the 3 units in the gameplay demo works, it is noticeable but not insane (Kahl iirc almost ran out of health in the demo), which is where damage in most games should be imo.

I'm not entirely sure what route would be best to take in that regard, but if late game enemies are going to be hysterically durable (outside of one-shot builds) then they really shouldn't also be dealing enough damage to 2-tap most Warframes.

Could be a possibility what you are suggesting. I am almost not surprised because I remember when sorties were "endgame" content and you'd run either Inaros for face-tanking or Loki to just ignore everything. DE had a choice at that point, to nerf frames or to change/introduce content that makes those playstyles or abilities obsolete or less desirable. Back then, they chose the latter option. Now though, it seems they are beginning to be less afraid of nerfing, for better or worse.

I guess it's easier to have consistent damage when you don't have to factor in the maths from a player's own personal arsenal and mods. The demo "looked" to be at a better place in terms of damage given and damage taken but we will need to see how it all plays once we get our hands on it.

Unfortunately it's not just the enemies that need addressing, it's just about everything. I would think DE is probably better taking it slow and steady and making micro adjustments until they hit a sweet spot. Well, as long as they are continually doing something about it then I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

I wouldn't say a "gross" generalization, I just got done with my first (and likely only) Sister and I can safely say if I were playing anything less durable than Excalibur Umbra it would have been a nightmare.

Enemy-on-player damage is something that is hilariously broken currently which indeed after a certain point does push out several Warframes, mostly those without good base armor or abilities that negate such problems.

The worse part is that the only universal counter to incoming enemy damage is to never stop moving, which also makes aiming for headshots (and aiming in general) significantly harder. This is why people tend to just build one-shot-kill loadouts, because the gameplay does indeed devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after a certain point, and with more and more enemies getting massive adaptive DR/CC immunity there's no real choice for the players at that point but to fight cheese with cheese.

Frame survival doesn't matter when Magus Anomaly and Magus repair/lockdown and Vazarin exist.

There are many ways to make squishy frames work. This is why you see actually knowledgeable players doing endurance runs with squishy frames.

But I think there's a lot of people that typically don't have have these things so it explains why people talk about the game as if these things don't exist.

[Aldain]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Frame survival doesn't matter when Magus Anomaly and Magus repair/lockdown and Vazarin exist.

There are many ways to make squishy frames work. This is why you see actually knowledgeable players doing endurance runs with squishy frames.

But I think there's a lot of people that typically don't have have these things so it explains why people talk about the game as if these things don't exist.

I can agree on the endurance run thing, but having to gear yourself like an endurance runner just so a Lich/Sister won't 2 tap half the frame roster doesn't strike me as a good balance.

Maybe things wouldn't need to 2-tap Warframes if they didn't have to program around +900 armor from Arcane Guardian randomly, or Magus Lockdown being the universal zero energy cost CC that bypasses a lot of the random ability negation that DE has had to slap onto Warframes to keep THEM from doing the same thing. Maybe things are just so utterly broken by a series of bad developer decisions and layers of band-aids that the game can only function as this Nuke-or-be-nuked hellhole post level 40.

Not to mention that the reason why 90% of players don't bother farming Arcanes is because it is just another RNG farming nightmare that you either cram Eidolons for or mindlessly do Orphix over and over until you get 21 of the blasted things just for one Rank 5 Arcane.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I can agree on the endurance run thing, but having to gear yourself like an endurance runner just so a Lich/Sister won't 2 tap half the frame roster doesn't strike me as a good balance.

Maybe things wouldn't need to 2-tap Warframes if they didn't have to program around +900 armor from Arcane Guardian randomly, or Magus Lockdown being the universal zero energy cost CC that bypasses a lot of the random ability negation that DE has had to slap onto Warframes to keep THEM from doing the same thing. Maybe things are just so utterly broken by a series of bad developer decisions and layers of band-aids that the game can only function as this Nuke-or-be-nuked hellhole post level 40.

Not to mention that the reason why 90% of players don't bother farming Arcanes is because it is just another RNG farming nightmare that you either cram Eidolons for or mindlessly do Orphix over and over until you get 21 of the blasted things just for one Rank 5 Arcane.

It's a living battlefield, that's just how it is in a fast paced environment. That's kinda why some people like the game. And past level 40... Really lol? Online games are meant to be played for more than 2 weeks....this means people should have enough time to progress to the point where a level 50 enemy won't kill them immediately lol....

I get it, there's a lot of people still new to the game or only play on a surface level without learning much. Level 50 enemies were difficult to me when I was newer, but they're really nothing now and shouldn't be to most players.

Enemy ehp has been nerfed and so has enemy ai and tactics over the years as well. The game really can't be any easier after some experience is gained.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

…Nuke-or-be-nuked hellhole post level 40.

Er. What does “Nuke-or-be-nuked” mean? I’ve seen it before and figured I got the gist, but this level reference is making me wonder if I’ve misunderstood it

[Aldain]

18 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Er. What does “Nuke-or-be-nuked” mean? I’ve seen it before and figured I got the gist, but this level reference is making me wonder if I’ve misunderstood it

Basically enemy-on-player damage is so high around level 100+ (even non-Steel Path enemies, this is a problem in late Proxima, Arbitrations and even Sorties at times) that frames without good armor basically can only take two or three hits on average, hence why the meta for higher level content tends towards hilariously powerful melee builds which can delete enemies before they can even act.

That's why it is "nuke-or-be-nuked", because if you aren't nuking (or infinitely crowd controlling, which considering most good CC in the game pretty much shuts the A.I. off completely might as well be the same thing as nuked) you are in a constant state of being killed by 2-3 stray bullets unless you're playing a hyper-tank or literally immortal frame like Revanant.

The damage numbers aren't just out of control for players, they're out of control for enemies too, even a few hitscan bullets from a high level Lancer can kill some Warframes, I was getting hit by stray bullets while fighting the Sister I created and she was only level 63~ (level 3 of 5 when I confronted her in the final showdown) and was badly chunking my 1,035ish Armor Excalibur Umbra, and the mook units were doing the same amount of damage.

To put that in perspective, with 1,035ish armor I basically had about 500% of my eHP (my health being around 1,130 on Umbra) meaning that effectively each bullet was dealing close to 33% of my eHP because I was moving as much as possible to avoid getting hit and still wound up dying after about 3-4 bullets finally overwhelmed me from all angles.

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-07-20 at 12:40 AM, PublikDomain said:

No Hydroid player is ever going to keep up with a player using a good frame, and no Harpak user is ever going to keep up with someone mashing E.

You only said success, not keeping up and there are ways to make even Hydroid and Harpak able to solo steel path

- Hydroid

* augments : corroding barrage to help stripping armor, tidal impunity to clear yourself from status effect and temporary status immunity

* abilities : Tempest barrage for area lockdown with constant knockdown, tidal surge to push enemies away, undertow for lazy players, tentacle swarm for extra CC

- Harpak : Exposing harpoon for increased critical chance (up to 110%) for 15 seconds after pulling an enemy with harpoon

Can those two keep up with a player using a good frame or someone mashing E? Maybe no, or never will but you're only saying success, not keeping up and I don't think a support/CC able to match a DPS even on any games

[TheArmchairThinker]

9 hours ago, Aldain said:

I wouldn't say a "gross" generalization, I just got done with my first (and likely only) Sister and I can safely say if I were playing anything less durable than Excalibur Umbra it would have been a nightmare.

Enemy-on-player damage is something that is hilariously broken currently which indeed after a certain point does push out several Warframes, mostly those without good base armor or abilities that negate such problems.

The worse part is that the only universal counter to incoming enemy damage is to never stop moving, which also makes aiming for headshots (and aiming in general) significantly harder. This is why people tend to just build one-shot-kill loadouts, because the gameplay does indeed devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after a certain point, and with more and more enemies getting massive adaptive DR/CC immunity there's no real choice for the players at that point but to fight cheese with cheese.

Is it though? With shield gating, anything less durable than Excalibur Umbra still able to survive with few seconds of invincibility to retreat so it's not a nightmare and it's not like we don't have any abilities and mods to make it not a nightmare. And my friend @844448 finished his first sister solo with Nyx and I saw him getting electrocuted by hounds every time he meets one but still not dying and no arcanes either. Only mods, wits and fast hands

Also, isn't that basically how things go? Enemies having broken damage to any players that aren't tank so you have roles. Tank taking the aggro and damage, DPS taking enemies down while they're distracted with tank, healer replenishing health/energy/mana and support easing the burden with CC and buff/debuff? Or that shouldn't happen in warframe?

Universal counter is to never stop moving? Not really, we still have cover option where you shoot enemies behind something or has that been forgotten now?