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Personifying the demonic enemy


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So with the reveal of playable grineer , corpus (and the singular dax) soldiers I couldn't help but feel relatable to kahl and veso (to some extent vay hek and alad as well).

Kahl is just a grunt amongst the grineer (probably) but still in those few minutes he showed intelligence , compassion (towards his brothers) , intitative and determination to complete his mission even against the odds like a soldier bred for war but still having independent thought (not unlike the meridian).

Veso , clearly was in above his head , very vulnerable and obviously scared while still trying to put on a brave face as he tried to complete the work given to him reluctantly with the limited tools available to him while apeasing his boss.

Are these just exceptions for grineer and corpus , or were we incorrectly demonizing them to justify our actions?

After actually playing them , can we still complete our existing missions with no guilt ? Knowing we may be killing another kahl or veso ? Do you still believe that you are an absolute force for good or have you accepted a more gray shade ?

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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Well, we knew that our enemies are human-beings (even the corpus robotics were shown as "defective(?)" and got emotions/initiatives).

But the demonstration we had was very specific and so you should keep that in mind:
-1) it was characters within their traditionnal group (grineer with grineer interactions), so they will act differently than it would have been toward strangers or enemies (grineer/corpus with tenno, as exemple);
-2) it was a disastrous event to them : humans will behave differently in toughts & dark times, when the disaster is happening you can see pity, mercy, heroic efforts more easily - when they are in the winning situation, you would see greed & contempt toward the enemy.

Nothing is telling how Kahl & Veso would have react in a glorious situation :

For exemple, if Kahl succeeded to enter, with his brothers, inside Cetus by their own means - do you think it would be to bring a cup of coffee ? Yes, some Grineer are worst than others (Grustag three - the zombie-units - manics - ...) but they don't just oppress and enslave. Only the Grineer must reign in the system, whatever the cost.

 

There are absolutly tragic events in all the nations / tribes we met, so be it the Grineer (as stories of the defection, the steel meridian, clem, etc...), the Corpus (Salad got a pretty rough life after all - imagine the dark past of Prodman, he who bravely(?) lend a final blow to an infested monster (but what was his state of mind? maybe he was crying and acted purely instinctly, maybe it was the tenno who killed the monster, who knows), and everyone else.

Plus, it was never stated, from what i remember, that we are a force "of good" - we are supposed to "bring balance", an Ballas said it : we kept the statu-quo between Grineer & Corpus; restraining both side to get the upper-hand in this endless war.

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38 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

After actually playing them , can we still complete our existing missions with no guilt ?

Well, we can't, and in fact never could. And you don't need a Kahl or a Veso to feel that way.

Tenno are and have always been essentially a group of violent mercenaries justifying their crimes with the illusory idea of keeping the balance. Provided with their greed and given direction by the Lotus, they steadily undermined other factions' attempts at preparing for the Sentient invasion.

And now we finally have the moment I've been waiting for for years - the major factions unite what forces they have left against the real threat - this is logically the only possible way they can win.

I like how the Tenno are portrayed in this demo - weak and overwhelmed. Even with their best weaponry they alone are powerless against the real enemy. A generic Grineer lancer has done more againt the Sentient than the bulletproof Rhino with an Orokin era shotgun.

And it should be that way really. The Tenno are just finally facing the consequences of their actions.

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41 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Tenno are and have always been essentially a group of violent mercenaries justifying their crimes with the illusory idea of keeping the balance.

I suppose we're just going to ignore all those times that they went out of their way to help the downtrodden with no expectation of reward.

Seriously, the players who continue to peddle this dreck must either be blind or possess the memory capacity of a goldfish.

43 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

I like how the Tenno are portrayed in this demo - weak and overwhelmed.

We see exactly one Tenno in the demo, and given the commentary in Teshin's segment they were likely shut down by an Orphix field. Hardly representative of the entire faction, especially since the post-demo trailer shows the Tenno taking the fight to the Sentients.

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1 hour ago, Umbriellan said:

Well, we knew that our enemies are human-beings (even the corpus robotics were shown as "defective(?)" and got emotions/initiatives).

But the demonstration we had was very specific and so you should keep that in mind:
-1) it was characters within their traditionnal group (grineer with grineer interactions), so they will act differently than it would have been toward strangers or enemies (grineer/corpus with tenno, as exemple);
-2) it was a disastrous event to them : humans will behave differently in toughts & dark times, when the disaster is happening you can see pity, mercy, heroic efforts more easily - when they are in the winning situation, you would see greed & contempt toward the enemy.

Nothing is telling how Kahl & Veso would have react in a glorious situation :

For exemple, if Kahl succeeded to enter, with his brothers, inside Cetus by their own means - do you think it would be to bring a cup of coffee ? Yes, some Grineer are worst than others (Grustag three - the zombie-units - manics - ...) but they don't just oppress and enslave. Only the Grineer must reign in the system, whatever the cost.

 

There are absolutly tragic events in all the nations / tribes we met, so be it the Grineer (as stories of the defection, the steel meridian, clem, etc...), the Corpus (Salad got a pretty rough life after all - imagine the dark past of Prodman, he who bravely(?) lend a final blow to an infested monster (but what was his state of mind? maybe he was crying and acted purely instinctly, maybe it was the tenno who killed the monster, who knows), and everyone else.

Plus, it was never stated, from what i remember, that we are a force "of good" - we are supposed to "bring balance", an Ballas said it : we kept the statu-quo between Grineer & Corpus; restraining both side to get the upper-hand in this endless war.

 

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

Well, we can't, and in fact never could. And you don't need a Kahl or a Veso to feel that way.

Tenno are and have always been essentially a group of violent mercenaries justifying their crimes with the illusory idea of keeping the balance. Provided with their greed and given direction by the Lotus, they steadily undermined other factions' attempts at preparing for the Sentient invasion.

And now we finally have the moment I've been waiting for for years - the major factions unite what forces they have left against the real threat - this is logically the only possible way they can win.

I like how the Tenno are portrayed in this demo - weak and overwhelmed. Even with their best weaponry they alone are powerless against the real enemy. A generic Grineer lancer has done more againt the Sentient than the bulletproof Rhino with an Orokin era shotgun.

And it should be that way really. The Tenno are just finally facing the consequences of their actions.

Yeah , exactly my point. When in desperation the true character of individuals comes forward.

So far grineer were only ever represented as the generic cogs in the war Machine with no true individuality , unless "defective". 

And corpus were the greedy traders always thinking of profit even above emotions as a creed (with those with compassion being deemed heretic) .

It was left to the players to imagine the actual society and individual drives within that society.

And I have had so many arguments with others on the forum that were very happy with simply saying they are the good guys so they don't mind killing others that are the bad guys. 

I always considered Tenno as the chaotic neutral mercenary , no rules but what we make for ourselves.

Some may choose to act for the greater good or for personal evil.

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1 hour ago, Corvid said:

I suppose we're just going to ignore all those times that they went out of their way to help the downtrodden with no expectation of reward.

There existing the cases of the Tenno helping those in need like Ostrons, Solaris, Myconians, etc. does not justify the rest they have done. For every Solaris saved from brain shelving there exists a Corpus ship destroyed or wiped out of her crew. For every Ostron prisoner saved - a platoon of Grineer slaves exterminated. They are not the good guys also, mind you, however I doubt the Tenno chose the most reasonable way to protect the innocent - by slaughtering everything not considered innocent.

 

So, no, I'm not ignoring anything, I have good enough memory to remember the key events of the timeline.

My point is - Tenno are not the heroes, they are not superhumans to come resque everyone when the need arises. They are powerless by themselves one way or another. Most importantly, they do not have that much of a moral high ground compared to other factions.

 

If the Sisters' dialogue implying every Corpus crewman has a family, or a Grineer lancer having enough of a moral compass to sacrifice himself for his brothers rather than the tyrannic Queens - isn't enough to question the Tenno way of killing them by the thousands, then I don't know what is. Probably should have included a warframe killing some puppies and drinking their blood or something.

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2 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

does not justify the rest they have done.

That being the opposition of the forces that caused said downtroddenness?

We aren't killing innocents. We are waging a war on the ones responsible for perpetuating the system's current state of chaos.

5 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

So, no, I'm not ignoring anything, I have good enough memory to remember the key events of the timeline.

Evidently coloured through a lens designed to paint the Tenno in the worst possible light.

3 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

My point is - Tenno are not the heroes, they are not superhumans to come resque everyone when the need arises.

Except for all of the times that they do.

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I find it so strange that any time something goes and explores an event from an "enemies" perspective people only then start questioning the moralities involved in fighting them. Especially when it has already been established that said enemy isn't a mindless drone thinking "kill kill kill" 24/7.

Just from the existence of Defection and the Steel Meridian alone we know that there are free thinkers among the Grineer that, given the chance, they wouldn't be doing what they're being made to do. And with the Solaris being held in debt slavery and the Corpus' obsession with money we can safely assume that there are members within their ranks that are only doing what they do because it's that or slavery for them and their lineage.

 

Really at the end of it all good and evil is a matter of perspective. And the gameplay sections we were shown were from those factions perspective, and from our own if they were to turn their guns on us in those situations would we really be any worse to turn our own on them? After all we have our own purpose, objectives, and stories just as Kral and Veso do.

Edited by trst
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We can't forget all the horrible things they do just because they slapped a name on 2 random units..these are the same people enslaving the Solaris,poisoning Earth,destroying everything in their path.At the end of the day Kahl is still under Worm Queens commands,if she told him to go in Cetus and shoot everyone on sight he would do it,yes there are free thinkers among the Grineer but if they still carry out their orders we are not bad people for killing them.

I see 0 reasons for the Tenno to be villans

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33 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

There existing the cases of the Tenno helping those in need like Ostrons, Solaris, Myconians, etc. does not justify the rest they have done. For every Solaris saved from brain shelving there exists a Corpus ship destroyed or wiped out of her crew. For every Ostron prisoner saved - a platoon of Grineer slaves exterminated. They are not the good guys also, mind you, however I doubt the Tenno chose the most reasonable way to protect the innocent - by slaughtering everything not considered innocent.

 

So, no, I'm not ignoring anything, I have good enough memory to remember the key events of the timeline.

My point is - Tenno are not the heroes, they are not superhumans to come resque everyone when the need arises. They are powerless by themselves one way or another. Most importantly, they do not have that much of a moral high ground compared to other factions.

 

If the Sisters' dialogue implying every Corpus crewman has a family, or a Grineer lancer having enough of a moral compass to sacrifice himself for his brothers rather than the tyrannic Queens - isn't enough to question the Tenno way of killing them by the thousands, then I don't know what is. Probably should have included a warframe killing some puppies and drinking their blood or something.

Yes,at the end of the day it's the Queen's and the Corpus leader's fault,but what are we supposed to do,stare at them *enslave* people just because they have a family?Because they have a sense of brotherhood?It's not every single persons fault but what's the alternate solution besides being at war with them?

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@ant99999 I remind you that the concept of the 'Antihero' exists. An Antihero is a character who does not smoothly fit into definitions of 'Hero' or 'Villain'.

 

The Tenno, as you point out, largely don't do conventionally heroic things. They kill a lot of people, often in very horrible ways. But, unlike basically everyone else in the system, they actually have a shred of empathy for other people.

The Grineer are fighting for the Queens blindly. The Corpus are all fighting for themselves. The Infested are an animalistic mass. The Sentients consistent largely of two or three fanatical individuals, and if there are any reasonable ones (which I think there likely are), they're in Tau, not getting involved. The Syndicates would rather squabble amongst themselves and sabotage their collective efforts than get anything significant done. The Tenno, meanwhile, are willing to keep the attention on themselves and the factions, rather than the innocent civilians, and they've been depicted on numerous occasions as being willing to pull them out of the crossfire.

The Tenno aren't heroic, but they aren't evil either. It's not a binary system.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

We can't forget all the horrible things they do just because they slapped a name on 2 random units.

True enough , same can be said about any faction that exists including Tenno.

18 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

Yes,at the end of the day it's the Queen's and the Corpus leader's fault,but what are we supposed to do,stare at them *enslave* people just because they have a family?Because they have a sense of brotherhood?It's not every single persons fault but what's the alternate solution besides being at war with them?

So can you explain what happens when we do a "capture " mission or do simaris hunts ? Is it any different from enslavement ? 

Do two wrongs make a right in your books ?

How many times have you done a ship sabotage mission , with a "cool" alternative instead of the fire one ? One simply stops a ship , the other actively blows it up including any slaves which may be on it.

If given the easy but bloody way or the harder but bloodless way , what would you choose?

The grineer and corpus follow their leaders orders , was that any different from the way the Tenno followed the lotus before her betrayal ?

Are the individuals amongst the grineer and corpus that different from the Tenno ?

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

True enough , same can be said about any faction that exists including Tenno.

So can you explain what happens when we do a "capture " mission or do simaris hunts ? Is it any different from enslavement ? 

Do two wrongs make a right in your books ?

How many times have you done a ship sabotage mission , with a "cool" alternative instead of the fire one ? One simply stops a ship , the other actively blows it up including any slaves which may be on it.

If given the easy but bloody way or the harder but bloodless way , what would you choose?

The grineer and corpus follow their leaders orders , was that any different from the way the Tenno followed the lotus before her betrayal ?

Nothing in war is 100% morally right.We capture the leaders and get the information we need to stop their destruction.I'm not mixing gameplay elements with the lore,blowing up the ship is faster so of course I'm gonna do it because I'm farming so I want it done ASAP,of course I'd do the coolant cell if it wasn't the case.

I agree that Simaris is a really shady guy though.

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I was planning to continue arguing the points for who knows how long...

But then I remembered it's the Forums and it's never fun to engage in endless dissection of each other's arguements.

Moreover @Loza03 came and summarised my point of view better than I could it seems.

 

So here's a broader view on the subject.

I consider the main point of Warframe to be growth, and as the story goes the Tenno give the examples of it in various forms. First it's questioning the authority, the Lotus and her motives, then it's growth as a person, from an ignorant child to someone capable if sympathy, understanding warframes not as mere instruments, but characters. Now the time came to grow over the flawed self-centric morals the Tenno had to seeing (literally) the situation from the eyes of others and understanding them.

The world of Warframe is most beautiful if you don't take any character's words for truth and instead try to see the bigger picture.

So the Grineer are bad guys, the Corpus are bad guys, and the Tenno are bad guys. But the Tenno grow through the story, they learn from their misdeeds. Which was the point of making them flawed in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Corvid said:

We are waging a war on the ones responsible for perpetuating the system's current state of chaos.

I'd like to offer a different perspective. I was always wondering why Tenno quietly retired to their cryopods after defeating Orokin in the glorious betrayal and eliminating all sentients from the Sol system by the end of Old War? Let me suggest one of the explanations.

The Empire was a pinnacle of order, stability, and progress, including amazing scientific achievements and brilliant attempts to conquer the forces of the Universe, including interstellar travel. Yet, for some reason, these same achievements led to stagnation of the society, lawlessness, caste system, and rule with an iron fist, like all empires do eventually. Eventually, all empires die because of inevitable stagnation and lack of evolution.

The sentients backfired, the somehow controlled infestation spread out, the forces of unknown got out of control and eventually generated some sort of abominations in the form of sleeping murderous projections of dead children. This was all created by the Empire to maintain the order and prosperity to keep their power and spread it. This is not a natural evolution. Natural evolution involves competition and fighting between the species, not some petty political squabbles within the ruling caste with full monopoly on superiority.

Then, the Empire collapses, and the most dominant and powerful force that actually saved the Sol system from total elimination decided to retreat and remove itself from the picture instead of giving the system another iron hand to keep the order and help rebuild and reorganize. So, why not? Because that dominant Tenno force decided to let the natural evolution, chaos, and competition actually do the job of selecting what is the best. Metaphorically speaking, instead of preserving some form of purity, give the system a chance for progressing by its own means to build something stable or inherently unstable in a natural way.

Then, a new threat, currently unknown with unknown motives, comes, and the Tenno have been awaken from their cryopods to help the system repel this threat. Before the threat actually comes, before the New War begins, the main goal is to maintain the balance and let the system evolve naturally. After the New War, the threat is more obvious, and the Sol system needs the help in order to survive and continue the evolution.

So, here come the Tenno, protecting Ostron, Solaris, colonists, but also the Grinner, Corpus, and even Infested to let them continue some natural process, to help them get rid of some immense alien threat. Or is it even a threat or a new direction of some natural evolution that incorporates the sentients as well?

Sorry, got a bit carried away. What I wanted to say is that this new quest gives us a perspective of who is fighting with whom and what are we fighting for.

Edited by akots
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we've never been the good guys, ever. in war, there is only chaos, suffering and death, and everyone has different morals, or a lack of them. to everyone else we are void-powered demonic demigods who cannot be stopped, like living in a universe full of John Wicks and Doomguys. sure, we've helped oppressed folk like the Ostrons and Solaris, but only because they pay us, and our actions invite a reaction from the oppressors: a good example being Vay Hek's Formorians.

on the plus side, we've learned a bit more about our enemies: Grineer can apparently have a number after their name (useful since there are so many of them, and I bet there's way more than 175 Kahls.), and Veso shows that some Corpus are genuine bootlickers, even of people like Alad V. Kahl shows that while Grineer soldiers are of limited intellect, they can still think fast in combat and make sense with the most basic words. they can still experience joy, like when Kahl chuckles after sneaking past the Sentients saying "Kahl Sneak good!". Veso also showed how the Corpus can be afraid in combat; remember, Crewman are industrial workers first, soldiers second, and they are only made to fight in self-defense, or ordered, usually on the promise of a "bonus" if they win.

and all of this, their experiences, their emotions, their history, their entire lives... can be snuffed out in an instant by a Tenno, as easily as breathing. I kind of hope that at some point in the future we get this perspective during a Tenno Infiltration:

imagine being a Crewman like Veso, going about your business, then the alarm goes off: a Tenno has been spotted on the ship, and is heading towards you. you and your crew are told to stand and fight, but you know this is not a fight you'll win. you wait for the right opportunity to run and hide, and have to work your way through rooms as you hear this wrathful Tenno eviscerating all that is behind you, bullets from their gun streaking past. you find a place to hide until the shooting and the screaming stops.

then you emerge... and see what carnage the Tenno leave behind: wrecked proxies and bloodied corpses litter the floors, bullet holes line the walls, and the place smells of residual energy from where the Tenno's unholy powers manifested. the void devils came to your home and killed everyone, only you survived. 

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14 minutes ago, akots said:

I was always wondering why Tenno quietly retired to their cryopods

Under orders from Natah, mind you.

At that point we were effectively working for the Sentients by proxy, with the only divergence from that plan being Natah's refusal to butcher us in our beds.

10 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

but only because they pay us

Again, there have been many instances of us working without expectation of reward. For the Solaris in particular, Eudico explicitly states midway through the faction's introductory quest that she has nothing to give you and would fully understand if you abandoned them to their fate. But still, the player character continues to help them.

But hey, don't let something so trivial as reality get in the way of your edgy fantasising.

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Well, that's every war. Even the most despised totalitarian regimes in history had some people down on their luck recruited to their side. I am curious how this quest will go, since that preview peaked my interest.

Also seeing how Corpus speak is fascinating, I hope we get more of that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, V2lkyr said:

Nothing in war is 100% morally right.We capture the leaders and get the information we need to stop their destruction.I'm not mixing gameplay elements with the lore,blowing up the ship is faster so of course I'm gonna do it because I'm farming so I want it done ASAP,of course I'd do the coolant cell if it wasn't the case.

I agree that Simaris is a really shady guy though.

I don't think we are capturing any leaders , they seem to be engineers or informants of some sort , not decision makers. Eecision makers we assassinate.

The point again , is not to say the ones we fight are morally superior (or that we are inferior) 

But that all the factions (with perhaps the exception of the infestation/sentients) are not that different from each other in the actions they perform.

And the "lights out" variant of the sabotage can be completed just as fast (sometimes faster) as the fire one as you are saving time on opening the blast doors and then backtracking.

Simaris is indeed shady as #*!% , wouldn't be surprised if he is planning to convert everyone and confine them to the sanctuary.

45 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Again, there have been many instances of us working without expectation of reward. For the Solaris in particular, Eudico explicitly states midway through the faction's introductory quest that she has nothing to give you and would fully understand if you abandoned them to their fate. But still, the player character continues to help them.

I agree that Tenno are Capable of performing acts of good , but I think your example is poor. 

While eudico denies any actual reward (which just shows what the rest of the world thinks of Tenno), she does suggest making a "purhase" from legs , and legs in return offers us a reward due to which we continue to " help". And we all know how that ended.

We aren't performing a charity , we are providing one service so we can avail a different one later.

While things may have gotten marginally better for the Solaris , they are still very much in debt and under nefs control.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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49 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Under orders from Natah, mind you.

At that point we were effectively working for the Sentients by proxy, with the only divergence from that plan being Natah's refusal to butcher us in our beds.

That's highly unlikely IMHO. If we follow this logic, sentients should have been all over the system. Yet, based on what we know, they have been completely repelled without any trace, including some last battles already fought after the creation of Lotus and rebellion. Gara sacrificed itself and probably the operator to protect the Unum when Lotus should have been already at the pinnacle of power due to elimination of any opposition. Moreover, Tenno do not have to follow any orders from anybody unless there is a full consent with the purpose and manner of execution, which we can clearly see in the case of relationships with Ballas and other surviving Orokin. Even Olemedi is not showing up probably out of spite or fear. Moreover, Lotus is waking the Tenno en masse anticipating some New War developments, which probably suggests that the Lotus (Natah/Margulis hybrid) is clearly completely out of whack or acting up as a double-triple-crossing agent out of spite or for personal reasons. IMHO, Lotus is more likely to follow her personal logic trying to allow some form of free evolution for the Tenno without her interference to make sure the Sol system is prepared for what is coming and that the Tenno do not try to grab power for themselves and are only interested  in maintaining the balance.

So, while Lotus could have at some earlier point eliminated the Tenno by "butchering" (although it is unlikely that this is possible considering how the system works), her actual leaving enabled the Tenno to unlock new powers (transference and other stuff) that were previously "locked" apparently by force. Also, there was no interested party in any of that stuff.

Whereas, the free evolution concept actualized through wars or other types of rivalry is consistent with Margulis' point of view. I mean the real Margulis prototype, which DE considered. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis)

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46 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

While eudico denies any actual reward (which just shows what the rest of the world thinks of Tenno), she does suggest making a "purhase" from legs , and legs in return offers us a reward due to which we continue to " help".

That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the midpoint of the quest, after Thursby has been maimed by Nef's goons and Eudico has found her resolve. IIRC it's right after the scene where you set off the K-bomb and Nef moves Profit Taker up to guard Fortuna's entrance. Eudico confides that while she does appreciate all that you've done to bring back her rebellious spirit, she doesn't have anything tangible to give in return and that she would not blame you for leaving considering how dire the situation has become.

 

27 minutes ago, akots said:

That's highly unlikely IMHO.

Your honest opinion is irrelevant, since what I said was explicitly stated in the Natah quest.

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2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the midpoint of the quest, after Thursby has been maimed by Nef's goons and Eudico has found her resolve. IIRC it's right after the scene where you set off the K-bomb and Nef moves Profit Taker up to guard Fortuna's entrance. Eudico confides that while she does appreciate all that you've done to bring back her rebellious spirit, she doesn't have anything tangible to give in return and that she would not blame you for leaving considering how dire the situation has become.

Do you honestly have a choice at that point ? There's a giant spider and a whole contingent of corpus at the entrance. Helping them would reduce some of the traversal annoyance at the least. And again , we still want that reward from thursby , so best we do things that aids the survival of the person that owes you.

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