Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just dont think it will be worth doing it or thinking about it in the end, since it just wont be popular enough.

With all the prior work already done to support PvP I think it's cheap enough to give it a shot. We've got all the parts already, and Grineer vs Corpus is one of the few types of PvP people seem to actually have interest in. And with basic support for bots even if the mode isn't popular it could still remain playable. Like, the worst that could happen is that they give the Conclave community a little love for an update cycle and then move on to something else.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

This thread isn't about Battlefield scale matches, that was just something I agreed would be cool, but highly unrealistic. The OP is talking more about something similar to an arcade shooter like CoD with 8-12 players. Sorry that I didn't explicitly say that in the main thread.

It still wouldnt be worth the costs and time, because the game has failed at providing successful PvP several times over already. And if the support stays the same i.e the servers, then there just isnt enough basis to bring in more players. It "works" as it is now since the community active with it is so small. Sure, some people would likely even be fine with P2P and PvP with that, most people arent though, just as most people want really good servers and netcode in order to participate in worthwile PvP. If people are just after S#&$s and giggles, conclave is there already.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

With all the prior work already done to support PvP I think it's cheap enough to give it a shot. We've got all the parts already, and Grineer vs Corpus is one of the few types of PvP people seem to actually have interest in. And with basic support for bots even if the mode isn't popular it could still remain playable. Like, the worst that could happen is that they give the Conclave community a little love for an update cycle and then move on to something else.

If they hadnt failed several times over already I'd agree. But not with the track record of WF and conclave. I'd see far more potential in rebooting raids at that point, even though they've statistically been a massive fail aswell, just as they are in all games of this type/setup. Atleast raids have only seen one actual iteration and they are PvE content for a PvE game, while PvP has had conclave, rail conflicts and lunaro.

edit: Also, when they straight up say they arent planning on frame reworks even, I'd find it 100% silly to bring any work or resources to PvP.

[Kontrollo]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really moving goal posts, it simply comes down to explaining it so a child would get the idea of what is conveyed, since apparently even those that are into it dont understand the difference (willingly or for the sake of argument I do not know). People shouldnt need to explain such things when the discussion is about what it is. Which is why I also question how much time you've spent in games with "real" PvP supported properly by actual dedicated servers. I've been playing such games since uhm... Tribes(?).

...

Translation: you've run out of arguments and after having your fallacies pointed out one by one you escalate to the next level: 'Ad Hominem'

Your appeals to authority are especially weird. Who are all these people who have this same enlightened understanding of what is and isn't a dedicated server?

Even if you don't believe me (and everyone else who so far has said the same thing) DE and their official threads with people you could ask directly (funnily even pointed out in my previously quoted post from years ago) are definitely not that authority. So who is it then? I guess they would need to make a new thread with the title: "Real Dedicated Conclave Servers"

 

Go ask DE's maciejs what he has to say about it, I dare you again. You could even go watch his presentation he did on the topic, it's on Youtube and linked somewhere in there.

 

The only thing that's really left is for me to quote myself from earlier in this thread:

8 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

The people who still say they're bad/not working/can only work if hosted by DE have probably either never played on one, no experience hosting one, or are simply moving the goalposts. (Or maybe they have a weird boner for host migrations. 😉)

And if the opposition to that feature in its current form is solely because it usually comes up in PvP threads, then that's honestly just shooting your own foot. It could be a thing in specific PvE missions, too. Just go read the official thread I linked earlier.

and

On 2021-07-20 at 11:30 AM, Kontrollo said:

Threads about PvP are not frequently made by the same handful of people, except in the Conclave Feedback subforum.

I know, because I've been on the forums for a long while. People who play current Conclave have generally moved away from the forums and GD specifically -- also Reddit -- because they're just not environments to facilitate meaningful discussions.

 

 

[FrostDragoon]

7 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You brought them up anyways:

But now when called out on those contradictions, all you do is to fall back to denial. "Nice try".

Being aware of them is enough to cite them as a valid issue. You're not proving anything here, except that you can't use reason well. You're so desperate to land a personal attack because you have no argument that I can't tell if it's more humorous or sad.

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ah yes, the most ridiculous and unrealistic of arguments: using things we literally already have in game. 🤦‍♀️

And idk who I'd trust more about the "actual reasons for the state of things", people who have played Conclave or one guy who tried it once years ago and doesn't even know how it works. The "actual reasons for the state of things" are obvious to anyone that's actually given it a shot and used their critical thinking cap: Conclave is bad because it isn't developed. If it were developed, it wouldn't be bad.

The more you try to hang on to this ad hominem, the weaker your argument gets. The "state of things" is due to something I said very early in this thread: They can't balance a PvP mode for a game designed for PvE. There are too many elements that can't be fixed with just number tweaks. It's the mechanics and interactions of how certain abilities and weapons work.

I don't need to have cancer to know I don't want it and to tell others that they don't either. Yours is one of the oldest and weakest fallacies.

[----Legacy----]

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Being aware of them is enough to cite them as a valid issue.

You might have been aware of the servers, but had never interacted with them to have any grasp about how these improve the experience and only stated that these didn't fix server issues despite being a feature you never interacted with.

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You're not proving anything here, except that you can't use reason well. You're so desperate to land a personal attack because you have no argument that I can't tell if it's more humorous or sad.

What a hypocrite. I haven't used any ad hominem, just pointed the contradictions on your speech while you say that my logic fails and i'm desperate to land personal attacks.

Your comments at this point have become nothing but projecting your own flaws on those of us in the opposite side of the discussion.

7 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The "state of things" is due to something I said very early in this thread:

I guess you refer to this:

13 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Rather than recommending new players subject themselves to that, I correctly inform them of what's in store for them and advise them against it--just like the vast majority of people who help new players.

 

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

The people who still say they're bad/not working/can only work if hosted by DE have probably either never played on one, no experience hosting one, or are simply moving the goalposts. (Or maybe they have a weird boner for host migrations. 😉)

Quite the contrary, actually. It is directly because of my experience with player hosted dedicated servers that I find them distasteful. That said, I don't think servers are the biggest issue with Conclave--or PvP more generally. It's just another nail in that coffin. I've seen companies host their own dedicated servers that were utter trash as well. Either is usually better than peer to peer, but not by much unless the servers' quality itself are quite high and are strategically placed near the largest groups of players to reduce ping--and that's assuming the connecting nodes in between don't choke it up (a problem I have seen in Path of Exile). So even if we go full hard unreasonable levels of benefit of the doubt with regard to connection quality, you still have to contend with how much control people have over these servers if they aren't hosted by DE, security vulnerabilities, anti-cheat concerns, etc.

And this is still quite near the very bottom of the list of reasons why PvP doesn't work in WF. The ones I put near the top are balance concerns, design problems (the modes just aren't fun), appealing to the wrong audience, and opportunity costs of spending time on such irrelevant content instead of fixing up the other pieces that make up the heart of the game and its core loops.

[FrostDragoon]

5 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You might have been aware of the servers, but had never interacted with them to have any grasp about how these improve the experience and only stated that these didn't fix server issues despite being a feature you never interacted with.

Irrelevant. It's odd you think this is somehow a point.

5 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I haven't used any ad hominem, just pointed the contradictions

I haven't contradicted myself. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go back and read what I said more carefully. What makes your argument ad hominem is that you aren't making any points at all. You're simply trying to attack me personally through a warped appeal to authority. It doesn't work and we both know it.

The last two quotes in your last post highlight precisely what I'm talking about. You're deliberately attempting to distort the context of two separate statements to make them appear to be about each other. This is what people with no argument do rather than addressing the statements correctly.

You're simply acting the fool here, but I don't mind. It's exactly this kind of thing that ends up getting these pointless threads locked. The PvP community just proving how toxic it is once again, then wondering why they can't attract more people. Hilarious.

[OniDax]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ah yes, the most ridiculous and unrealistic of arguments: using things we literally already have in game. 🤦‍♀️

And idk who I'd trust more about the "actual reasons for the state of things", people who have played Conclave or one guy who tried it once years ago and doesn't even know how it works. The "actual reasons for the state of things" are obvious to anyone that's actually given it a shot and used their critical thinking cap: Conclave is bad because it isn't developed. If it were developed, it wouldn't be bad.

Well I've played a few Conclave matches, and I didn't enjoy it one bit. It's not because it isn't developed (I'd say the entire game isn't developed enough, quite frankly). For me, it's that I didn't like the way the gameplay felt because I didn't like the way the movement felt and the way the gunplay felt. To put it more concisely, for me, it comes down to gameplay.

I think Warframe's movement is good enough for cooperative PvE gameplay, but I don't like it for Conclave because in a fast-paced environment that requires agility, I think Warframe falls short. I think it falls short because Warframe's movement system is all about moving forward as fast as possible, and it's not really designed for agility. I'll use the NASM Blog's explanation: "Speed is defined as the ability to move the body in one direction as fast as possible. Agility is the ability to accelerate, decelerate, stabilize, and quickly change directions with proper posture." Warframe's movement system is built for speed, but it's not built for agility. Bullet Jump and AIm Gliding aids in speed very well, getting you from point A to point B. However, Aim Gliding works against agility because you're gliding in one direction, and then you have to stop gliding and try to reorient yourself in a different direction that ends up feeling quite sluggish. Same with sliding. All of that is to say, I find Warframe's movement quite clunky when trying to be agile in a PvP environment. I'm also not a big fan of the animations themselves, which feel clunky and outdated imo (for example, the warframe trots flat-footed instead of reflecting natural human motion when moving). Add that to a system that isn't built around lateral (or, side-to-side) movement and dodging, but built around forward movement, and you have a system that doesn't promote agility (something crucial to fast-paced PvP, imo).

I also don't really enjoy Warframe's gunplay. I'm not talking about sounds, which are hit or miss imo. I'm more so talking about the third person camera, time-to-kill, lack of ADS (aim down sight) functionality, and lack of true weapon customization (not talking mods, but about an attachment system). In part, this is because Warframe's gunplay is really designed like old arena shooters. It's third person and not first person, but the kinds of weapons in the game and the lack of an attachment-based customization system mean the gunplay is rather simple. There's also no ADS, which allows for more long-range gameplay, more accuracy in gunplay, and keeps the character model out of your view. Basically, it lacks the features of contemporary shooters. This is a subjective preference, I know, but it's why I don't enjoy the gunplay in Conclave.

In addition to why I see as shortcomings in movement and gunplay mechanics, I don't find the animations for either to be particularly satisfying. So, that's why I think Conclave is bad. It's not really something that is a Conclave-only problem imo; it's a problem with the game as a whole that I think is exacerbated in Conclave.

If DE were to make changes to movement to provide more agility through faster-paced lateral movement (they'd have to let A and D move your character side-to-side instead of having the character turn the whole body in that direction) and if they ever added ADS and an attachment-based system to guns (unlikely, I know), and if they improved the animations, I'd probably enjoy Conclave. The only other thing I'd like to see is for them to add some objective-based game modes that are based on tileset missions (like Defense, Hijack, Rescue, Capture, etc.).

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they hadnt failed several times over already I'd agree. But not with the track record of WF and conclave. I'd see far more potential in rebooting raids at that point, even though they've statistically been a massive fail aswell, just as they are in all games of this type/setup. Atleast raids have only seen one actual iteration and they are PvE content for a PvE game, while PvP has had conclave, rail conflicts and lunaro.

Yeah, but you can say that about basically anything. DE's track record is poor for most old content, not just Conclave. Doesn't mean old content shouldn't get worked on. Raids, like you brought up, are likely to return for the third Orb fight. Should they not bring back Raids and try again because they gave up once before? Archwing was a flop and they failed multiple times working on the flight model, and is only barely limping along as a movement tool for open worlds and Railjack, yet that's getting more work done to it.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: Also, when they straight up say they arent planning on frame reworks even, I'd find it 100% silly to bring any work or resources to PvP.

You're not the first to bring this up, and I'll say it again: you're using a bad thing as a justification for DE to continue to do a bad thing. That doesn't make sense. Pablo saying DE's not gonna rework any more frames is not a good thing! There are still frames that need updating, and DE's almost done with them. All they have left is really Hydroid and Loki, but they're going to give up now? DE abandoning content is a problem that's plagued the game for years, and just because they say "we don't wanna do anything about it anymore" doesn't mean it's no longer a problem.

[PublikDomain]

55 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The "state of things" is due to something I said very early in this thread: They can't balance a PvP mode for a game designed for PvE. There are too many elements that can't be fixed with just number tweaks. It's the mechanics and interactions of how certain abilities and weapons work.

Which anyone that's ever played PvP can scratch their heads at and say "huh?" because like many people have pointed out the balance in PvP is already separate from PvE. The mechanics and interactions of how certain abilities and weapons work is already separately balanced. They use different abilities in conclave and weapons have different stats, but you wouldn't know this because you've got no idea what you're talking about. Literally W H A T are you even on about?

[----Legacy----]

21 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I haven't contradicted myself. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go back and read what I said more carefully

Your contradictions have been called out by different people in this thread, but i guess it's all just a conspiracy.

25 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

What makes your argument ad hominem is that you aren't making any points at all. You're simply trying to attack me personally through a warped appeal to authority. It doesn't work and we both know it.

Do you even know what "ad hominem" is? I haven't said anything about you -person- to dismiss yoir points without addressing them. I haven't said stuff like "your logic is failing", "you can't use reason well", "You're desperate to land a personal attack", or anything on a similar note for it, which i wish could be said about you.

The only thing i've been doing these last pages is literally just call out the contradictions on your speech, and the only ad hominem i'd accept to have used is to call you "hypocrite" for keep trying to push them anyways.

32 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The last two quotes in your last post highlight precisely what I'm talking about. You're deliberately attempting to distort the context of two separate statements to make them appear to be about each other. This is what people with no argument do rather than addressing the statements correctly

Distort the context? It's the same thread and both statements are related, or will you now deny that the part of the community helping new players and tells them to stay away from conclave plays an active role on preventing the growth of PvP in warframe?

39 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is what people with no argument do rather than addressing the statements correctly.

I adressed your argument, with another statement made yourself on the same matter. Now you reply with self victimization and ad hominem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

42 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You're simply acting the fool here

You keep projecting yourself on everyone else.

 

43 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's exactly this kind of thing that ends up getting these pointless threads locked

More will pop up, you can be sure about it since, as much as you may hate it, there is an interest for PvP in part of the warframe community.

44 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The PvP community just proving how toxic it is once again, then wondering why they can't attract more people. Hilarious.

You and most people helping new players do your best to shut down any interest in PvP from new players asap, it's a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

[FrostDragoon]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which anyone that's ever played PvP can scratch their heads at and say "huh?" because like many people have pointed out the balance in PvP is already separate from PvE. The mechanics and interactions of how certain abilities and weapons work is already separately balanced. They use different abilities in conclave and weapons have different stats, but you wouldn't know this because you've got no idea what you're talking about. Literally W H A T are you even on about?

You don't have to play it to see it. Youtube exists. Stop being a petulant goon here with your terrible fallacies.

For example:

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Yeah, but you can say that about basically anything. DE's track record is poor for most old content, not just Conclave. Doesn't mean old content shouldn't get worked on. Raids, like you brought up, are likely to return for the third Orb fight. Should they not bring back Raids and try again because they gave up once before? Archwing was a flop and they failed multiple times working on the flight model, and is only barely limping along as a movement tool for open worlds and Railjack, yet that's getting more work done to it.

Despite people repeatedly telling you so, you still refuse to see the clear difference between elements of the game that are intended to feed into its core loops and a completely separate, irrelevant piece of "content." You can't compare Conclave to Archwing or Railjack, because Conclave isn't integrated into the base game the way these are. This is why focusing on fixing these elements should be the priority. You're making a false equivalence here.

 

I'll give you credit on one point, though, sort of...

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You're not the first to bring this up, and I'll say it again: you're using a bad thing as a justification for DE to continue to do a bad thing.

I agree with you that DE's track record for fixing old/broken content is pretty terrible. Even when they do go back to mostly fix something up, they often break it just a little in the process--like they are worried about job security or something. In an ideal world, DE would continue developing new stuff as they are, but have two small teams dedicated to the upkeep, maintenance, and improvement of older and existing systems--one for PvE and one for PvP. Until we see some evidence that they are doing such, there's no way to economically justify doing anything for PvP before everything else.

[Kontrollo]

55 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Quite the contrary, actually. It is directly because of my experience with player hosted dedicated servers that I find them distasteful. ...

Really. And previously you said you've only played this Conclave in its early days and only on consoles.

Time to quote myself again -- even directly in response to you (can't make this S#&$ up):

To this

9 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

The part that doesn't add up is your "logic." If I played it on PS4 and found it to be the trash it is, why would I have wasted any time/effort on it on my PC account? His attempt to profile stalk me failed and now the best you guys can come up with is, "We can't find anything to support our claims--just like Frost said in the first place." You'll have to do much better than that if your appeals to DE are to carry any valid reason for consideration, but I can't help but get a chuckle out of these sad attempts that just go in the same pointless circles that they have for the last half decade. You guys never seem to learn.

I wrote

9 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

No, in fact that was correct and maybe you just missed the point there.

The dedicated servers we have here only work for PC players, not consoles. Also, they weren't a thing when Conclave 2.0 was first introduced, that happened quite a bit later.

Maybe that'll change with Cross-Play, at least the console players I've talked to are hoping they will be able to play on those, as well.

not even half a day ago.

 

...

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[EmberStar]

You win.  I'm out.  This thread is off topic, probably heading for a lock, and not really about the original post anymore.  I'm not up for Forum PVP either.

[FrostDragoon]

9 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Your contradictions have been called out by different people in this thread, but i guess it's all just a conspiracy.

No, they just fell into the same error you did. Intentionally trying to misrepresent my opinions does not constitute a contradiction on my part.

10 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Do you even know what "ad hominem" is? I haven't said anything about you -person- to dismiss yoir points without addressing them. I haven't said stuff like "your logic is failing", "you can't use reason well", "You're desperate to land a personal attack", or anything on a similar note for it, which i wish could be said about you.

The only thing i've been doing these last pages is literally just call out the contradictions on your speech, and the only ad hominem i'd accept to have used is to call you "hypocrite" for keep trying to push them anyways.

You are attempting to attack my character and discredit me solely because I don't waste my time in Conclave. You haven't made any points that justify DE spending resources on this dead mode. It's not hypocritical to counter the few "points" (fallacies) you have made and also mock you for the manner in which you make them. It would be if I was doing so in place of those counter points, which I'm not. You might want to go check on your definitions, though. You clearly don't understand what it is, given this reply.

13 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I adressed your argument, with another statement made yourself on the same matter. Now you reply with self victimization and ad hominem

No, you have taken posts out of context to misrepresent their meaning. It's dishonest and shameful, but I've come to expect no better from you.

14 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

More will pop up, you can be sure about it since, as much as you may hate it, there is an interest for PvP in part of the warframe community.

I know. All 3 of you are quite persistent.

14 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You and most people helping new players do your best to shut down any interest in PvP from new players asap, it's a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

Deservedly so. People like you are yet another reason why people like me can't/don't enjoy Conclave. It's a service to new players to spare them that experience.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Really. And previously you said you've only played this Conclave in its early days and only on consoles.

I was referring to my gaming experience as a whole, not specifically just WF. I should have been clear about that.

[Kontrollo]

56 minutes ago, OniDax said:

Well I've played a few Conclave matches, and I didn't enjoy it one bit. It's not because it isn't developed (I'd say the entire game isn't developed enough, quite frankly). For me, it's that I didn't like the way the gameplay felt because I didn't like the way the movement felt and the way the gunplay felt. To put it more concisely, for me, it comes down to gameplay.

I think Warframe's movement is good enough for cooperative PvE gameplay, but I don't like it for Conclave because in a fast-paced environment that requires agility, I think Warframe falls short. I think it falls short because Warframe's movement system is all about moving forward as fast as possible, and it's not really designed for agility. I'll use the NASM Blog's explanation: "Speed is defined as the ability to move the body in one direction as fast as possible. Agility is the ability to accelerate, decelerate, stabilize, and quickly change directions with proper posture." Warframe's movement system is built for speed, but it's not built for agility. Bullet Jump and AIm Gliding aids in speed very well, getting you from point A to point B. However, Aim Gliding works against agility because you're gliding in one direction, and then you have to stop gliding and try to reorient yourself in a different direction that ends up feeling quite sluggish. Same with sliding. All of that is to say, I find Warframe's movement quite clunky when trying to be agile in a PvP environment. I'm also not a big fan of the animations themselves, which feel clunky and outdated imo (for example, the warframe trots flat-footed instead of reflecting natural human motion when moving). Add that to a system that isn't built around lateral (or, side-to-side) movement and dodging, but built around forward movement, and you have a system that doesn't promote agility (something crucial to fast-paced PvP, imo).

I also don't really enjoy Warframe's gunplay. I'm not talking about sounds, which are hit or miss imo. I'm more so talking about the third person camera, time-to-kill, lack of ADS (aim down sight) functionality, and lack of true weapon customization (not talking mods, but about an attachment system). In part, this is because Warframe's gunplay is really designed like old arena shooters. It's third person and not first person, but the kinds of weapons in the game and the lack of an attachment-based customization system mean the gunplay is rather simple. There's also no ADS, which allows for more long-range gameplay, more accuracy in gunplay, and keeps the character model out of your view. Basically, it lacks the features of contemporary shooters. This is a subjective preference, I know, but it's why I don't enjoy the gunplay in Conclave.

In addition to why I see as shortcomings in movement and gunplay mechanics, I don't find the animations for either to be particularly satisfying. So, that's why I think Conclave is bad. It's not really something that is a Conclave-only problem imo; it's a problem with the game as a whole that I think is exacerbated in Conclave.

If DE were to make changes to movement to provide more agility through faster-paced lateral movement (they'd have to let A and D move your character side-to-side instead of having the character turn the whole body in that direction) and if they ever added ADS and an attachment-based system to guns (unlikely, I know), and if they improved the animations, I'd probably enjoy Conclave. The only other thing I'd like to see is for them to add some objective-based game modes that are based on tileset missions (like Defense, Hijack, Rescue, Capture, etc.).

Going to quote you here not because I agree but after the past few pages:

Thank you for a well-reasoned and -structured post on your experience in this game's PvP.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Going to quote you here not because I agree but after the past few pages:

Thank you for a well-reasoned and -structured post on your experience in this game's PvP.

Agree. He basically said in more detail something really close to my own experience with it.

[Kontrollo]

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Agree. He basically said in more detail something really close to my own experience with it.

Don't quote-ping me again, I think I'm done talking to you.

 

@(XBOX)Regxxh and others who actually wanted to talk about the Grineer vs. Corpus thing. Your turn to continue where you left off if you want.

[----Legacy----]

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, they just fell into the same error you did. Intentionally trying to misrepresent my opinions does not constitute a contradiction on my part.

Everybody is wrong but you, got it.

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You are attempting to attack my character and discredit me solely because I don't waste my time in Conclave.

Do you remember how did this all start? yeah, with a talk about the behavior of players in conclave matches. I'm sure that players who never interact with certain parts of the game and its communities are a knowledgeable source of information about said parts of the game the communities built around them, and their behavior. That call out was on point.
 

16 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It would be if I was doing so in place of those counter points, which I'm not. You might want to go check on your definitions, though. You clearly don't understand what it is, given this reply.

Go back to the beginning (linked above) and you can see how i gave you a counterpoint and got a sarcastic response in exchange. How else did you expect things to evolve?

18 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, you have taken posts out of context to misrepresent their meaning. It's dishonest and shameful, but I've come to expect no better from you.

I haven't. Once again you're falling back to denial which seems to be your only defense at this point. It's actually shameful and dishonest too, but i know you can do much better than that.

 

19 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I know. All 3 of you are quite persistent.

And a bad meme for additional quality points. You can see that only in this thread there's more than 3 people pro-pvp, there are more in other similar threads on different social media, and even then, all of these are just a small sample of the actual community where the interest could be even bigger, just remains silent.

 

24 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Deservedly so. People like you are yet another reason why people like me can't/don't enjoy Conclave. It's a service to new players to spare them that experience.

Thanks for being a perfect example of the "always welcoming, mature and friendly" warframe community, an echo chamber that reflects its own flaws on any dissenting voice. 

 

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, OniDax said:

Well I've played a few Conclave matches, and I didn't enjoy it one bit. It's not because it isn't developed (I'd say the entire game isn't developed enough, quite frankly). For me, it's that I didn't like the way the gameplay felt because I didn't like the way the movement felt and the way the gunplay felt. To put it more concisely, for me, it comes down to gameplay.

I think Warframe's movement is good enough for cooperative PvE gameplay, but I don't like it for Conclave because in a fast-paced environment that requires agility, I think Warframe falls short. I think it falls short because Warframe's movement system is all about moving forward as fast as possible, and it's not really designed for agility. I'll use the NASM Blog's explanation: "Speed is defined as the ability to move the body in one direction as fast as possible. Agility is the ability to accelerate, decelerate, stabilize, and quickly change directions with proper posture." Warframe's movement system is built for speed, but it's not built for agility. Bullet Jump and AIm Gliding aids in speed very well, getting you from point A to point B. However, Aim Gliding works against agility because you're gliding in one direction, and then you have to stop gliding and try to reorient yourself in a different direction that ends up feeling quite sluggish. Same with sliding. All of that is to say, I find Warframe's movement quite clunky when trying to be agile in a PvP environment. I'm also not a big fan of the animations themselves, which feel clunky and outdated imo (for example, the warframe trots flat-footed instead of reflecting natural human motion when moving). Add that to a system that isn't built around lateral (or, side-to-side) movement and dodging, but built around forward movement, and you have a system that doesn't promote agility (something crucial to fast-paced PvP, imo).

I also don't really enjoy Warframe's gunplay. I'm not talking about sounds, which are hit or miss imo. I'm more so talking about the third person camera, time-to-kill, lack of ADS (aim down sight) functionality, and lack of true weapon customization (not talking mods, but about an attachment system). In part, this is because Warframe's gunplay is really designed like old arena shooters. It's third person and not first person, but the kinds of weapons in the game and the lack of an attachment-based customization system mean the gunplay is rather simple. There's also no ADS, which allows for more long-range gameplay, more accuracy in gunplay, and keeps the character model out of your view. Basically, it lacks the features of contemporary shooters. This is a subjective preference, I know, but it's why I don't enjoy the gunplay in Conclave.

In addition to why I see as shortcomings in movement and gunplay mechanics, I don't find the animations for either to be particularly satisfying. So, that's why I think Conclave is bad. It's not really something that is a Conclave-only problem imo; it's a problem with the game as a whole that I think is exacerbated in Conclave.

If DE were to make changes to movement to provide more agility through faster-paced lateral movement (they'd have to let A and D move your character side-to-side instead of having the character turn the whole body in that direction) and if they ever added ADS and an attachment-based system to guns (unlikely, I know), and if they improved the animations, I'd probably enjoy Conclave. The only other thing I'd like to see is for them to add some objective-based game modes that are based on tileset missions (like Defense, Hijack, Rescue, Capture, etc.).

Really loving this post, especially because these are all changes that could be applied to improve the game as a whole in several different aspects. +1!

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Really loving this post, especially because these are all changes that could be applied to improve the game as a whole in several different aspects. +1!

In regards to movement and gunplay, as someone who plays far more Conclave than I do what do you think about this: one of the reasons I think Conclave gets such a bad rap is the pacing, namely the TTK and respawn rate. Because of the high TTK and high mobility, a good player is able to 1) chase down a bad player and 2) disengage from a fight whenever they want to recover. This seems to me to be the reason non-Conclave players so often say they'd prefer reduced mobility (stamina, Grineer/Corpus mode, etc), because if they've tried in the past they got stomped by some guy they couldn't catch.

But Conclave players don't like the idea of reduced mobility, because the game's mobility is what makes Conclave so special. Instead it seems to me like DE ought to look at the TTK instead and lower it so getting kills is faster, and lower the respawn so dying is less penalizing. Pros already have low TTKs because they're good at aiming and tracking targets so not much would change, but for newer players having punchier guns would make it easier to secure a kill. Compare the pacing to a game like Quake and it's far faster in mobility and TTK with respawns that are basically instant, and therefore a lot less punishing.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, OniDax said:

Well I've played a few Conclave matches, and I didn't enjoy it one bit. It's not because it isn't developed (I'd say the entire game isn't developed enough, quite frankly). For me, it's that I didn't like the way the gameplay felt because I didn't like the way the movement felt and the way the gunplay felt. To put it more concisely, for me, it comes down to gameplay.

I think Warframe's movement is good enough for cooperative PvE gameplay, but I don't like it for Conclave because in a fast-paced environment that requires agility, I think Warframe falls short. I think it falls short because Warframe's movement system is all about moving forward as fast as possible, and it's not really designed for agility. I'll use the NASM Blog's explanation: "Speed is defined as the ability to move the body in one direction as fast as possible. Agility is the ability to accelerate, decelerate, stabilize, and quickly change directions with proper posture." Warframe's movement system is built for speed, but it's not built for agility. Bullet Jump and AIm Gliding aids in speed very well, getting you from point A to point B. However, Aim Gliding works against agility because you're gliding in one direction, and then you have to stop gliding and try to reorient yourself in a different direction that ends up feeling quite sluggish. Same with sliding. All of that is to say, I find Warframe's movement quite clunky when trying to be agile in a PvP environment. I'm also not a big fan of the animations themselves, which feel clunky and outdated imo (for example, the warframe trots flat-footed instead of reflecting natural human motion when moving). Add that to a system that isn't built around lateral (or, side-to-side) movement and dodging, but built around forward movement, and you have a system that doesn't promote agility (something crucial to fast-paced PvP, imo).

I also don't really enjoy Warframe's gunplay. I'm not talking about sounds, which are hit or miss imo. I'm more so talking about the third person camera, time-to-kill, lack of ADS (aim down sight) functionality, and lack of true weapon customization (not talking mods, but about an attachment system). In part, this is because Warframe's gunplay is really designed like old arena shooters. It's third person and not first person, but the kinds of weapons in the game and the lack of an attachment-based customization system mean the gunplay is rather simple. There's also no ADS, which allows for more long-range gameplay, more accuracy in gunplay, and keeps the character model out of your view. Basically, it lacks the features of contemporary shooters. This is a subjective preference, I know, but it's why I don't enjoy the gunplay in Conclave.

In addition to why I see as shortcomings in movement and gunplay mechanics, I don't find the animations for either to be particularly satisfying. So, that's why I think Conclave is bad. It's not really something that is a Conclave-only problem imo; it's a problem with the game as a whole that I think is exacerbated in Conclave.

If DE were to make changes to movement to provide more agility through faster-paced lateral movement (they'd have to let A and D move your character side-to-side instead of having the character turn the whole body in that direction) and if they ever added ADS and an attachment-based system to guns (unlikely, I know), and if they improved the animations, I'd probably enjoy Conclave. The only other thing I'd like to see is for them to add some objective-based game modes that are based on tileset missions (like Defense, Hijack, Rescue, Capture, etc.).

Actually, my reply would probably have been better directed at you directly. See above:

TTK and pacing are likewise the things I feel are the most out of tune. The lack of game modes certainly doesn't help :(