Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[----Legacy----]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

In regards to movement and gunplay, as someone who plays far more Conclave than I do what do you think about this: one of the reasons I think Conclave gets such a bad rap is the pacing, namely the TTK and respawn rate. Because of the high TTK and high mobility, a good player is able to 1) chase down a bad player and 2) disengage from a fight whenever they want to recover. This seems to me to be the reason non-Conclave players so often say they'd prefer reduced mobility (stamina, Grineer/Corpus mode, etc), because if they've tried in the past they got stomped by some guy they couldn't catch.

I think that conclave could indeed benefit from some improvements to pacing.

Reducing respawn timers looks like a no brainer for any game intended to have a fast pace, i'd gladly take it down to either 4 or 5 seconds instead, perhaps make the respawn screen longer than that until the player presses a key to make sure they are ready to hop back in to the match, but with a limit to how long that timer lasts to prevent from just staying in said screen forever.

I wouldn't mind gradual decreases to TTK until DE can find a sweet spot, sometimes we can feel too tanky even with the lowest EHP values thanks to how hard we are to hit, and that tankiness feel gets exacerbated by stuff like shield gating (which shouldn't be in pvp) and heal/shield recover on kill mods.

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

This seems to me to be the reason non-Conclave players so often say they'd prefer reduced mobility (stamina, Grineer/Corpus mode, etc), because if they've tried in the past they got stomped by some guy they couldn't catch.

You're most likely right on this one, it may sound a bit bad, but in warframe it's all fun and games until we get to face the true enemy, a tenno able to make us feel like a grineer lancer.

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But Conclave players don't like the idea of reduced mobility, because the game's mobility is what makes Conclave so special.

And it makes sense, core mechanics of the game should be consistent across PvP and PvE modes so people can see skills transfer from one to another (DE has failed in this one so far despite mechanics being exactly the same in both modes). We could also add that there's plenty of generic tactical shooters out there for people who want a slower pace while there are no games with warframe's freedom in mobility, so cutting out of warframe what makes it unique sounds like an awful idea.

 

That said, i wouldn't be opposed to another parkour rework if it took the best of both, parkour 1.0 and 2.0 to give us a slightly more grounded combat, wall running, no stamina, and replaces bulletjump with some sort of "charged jump" to prevent it from being easily spammed.

But as pointed above, it should be consistent for both, PvE and PvP and you can be sure that many players would rage really hard if DE ever announced such a change. It has been the case with nearly every single rework, after all.

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

And it makes sense, core mechanics of the game should be consistent across PvP and PvE modes so people can see skills transfer from one to another (DE has failed in this one so far despite mechanics being exactly the same in both modes). We could also add that there's plenty of generic tactical shooters out there for people who want a slower pace while there are no games with warframe's freedom in mobility, so cutting out of warframe what makes it unique sounds like an awful idea.

That said, i wouldn't be opposed to another parkour rework if it took the best of both, parkour 1.0 and 2.0 to give us a slightly more grounded combat, wall running, no stamina, and replaces bulletjump with some sort of "charged jump" to prevent it from being easily spammed.

But as pointed above, it should be consistent for both, PvE and PvP and you can be sure that many players would rage really hard if DE ever announced such a change. It has been the case with nearly every single rework, after all.

I think this is what makes Grineer vs Corpus PvP such an exciting prospect. It's already got interest and is very "new", so it comes without so much of Conclave's baggage, while also addressing perceived problems like mobility and without having to touch existing Conclave.

Past the basic shoot-the-other-guy modes it's not hard to imagine a mode like Gambit, which is another one of those "I might actually try that" ideas that's been floated around quite often. One team plays Grineer with a task to complete, while the other team plays Corpus with a task to complete. They could have enemies from a third faction to fight, like Infested or Corrupted or Sentients, and you could invade the other team by taking control of a Tenno mercenary. The tech for that isn't anything unheard of either, since we've had 8-player Raids vs NPCs already. And it's not hard to see this tied in to the Invasions system, where your actions could affect the global progress of various factions. You could even go past just the Grineer and Corpus and have Syndicates as well.

None of this is a replacement for Conclave, which is something you typically hear it proposed as, but it'd serve as a great introduction or companion.

[----Legacy----]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I think this is what makes Grineer vs Corpus PvP such an exciting prospect. It's already got interest and is very "new", so it comes without so much of Conclave's baggage, while also addressing perceived problems like mobility and without having to touch existing Conclave

True, and if done right they could start seeing other benefits, like finally realizing that PvP modes can offer a big return for minimal investment based on maintenance alone. PvP has a lot less moving parts than PvE, and its current implementation of being mainly a side module makes it really easy to maintain, it wouldn't require any maintenance at all if it wasn't because of its few moving parts that move only for being in contact contact with PvE, which is a huge machine built entirely of moving parts slapped on top of more moving parts and is constantly getting even more moving parts.

 

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Past the basic shoot-the-other-guy modes it's not hard to imagine a mode like Gambit, which is another one of those "I might actually try that" ideas that's been floated around quite often. One team plays Grineer with a task to complete, while the other team plays Corpus with a task to complete. They could have enemies from a third faction to fight, like Infested or Corrupted or Sentients, and you could invade the other team by taking control of a Tenno mercenary. The tech for that isn't anything unheard of either, since we've had 8-player Raids vs NPCs already. And it's not hard to see this tied in to the Invasions system, where your actions could affect the global progress of various factions. You could even go past just the Grineer and Corpus and have Syndicates as well.

Yeah, if a grineer versus corpus mode was ever added, i'd love to see it closer to an invasion rework (that keeps the PvE aspect for those who don't want to engage on this PvP), and as you also pointed by the end, i think that syndicates could also benefit a lot from some degree of PvP that could affect the entire world while keeping both, a PvP and PvE ways to represent your syndicate on each planet while trying to get them under their triad's control and get some minor boosts (like increased affinity and resources for playing friendly nodes and increased credits or endo for going to enemy controlled ones, this is a really rough idea, so don't mind it).

Also, there are plenty of PvE modes that could work wonders for PvP, starting by the obvious ones (Rathuum/Index) and then some others that could require minor tweaks to make sense, like Hijack (payload) or Interception (with 3 towers to encourage tactical teamplay).

One could even suggest having seasons with different encounters (Grineer/Corpus, Loka/Suda, Meridian/Perrin, Hexis/Veil, etc) with themed rewards for each side...
The current state of Nightwave makes this sound like an awful reward structure.

 

46 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

None of this is a replacement for Conclave, which is something you typically hear it proposed as, but it'd serve as a great introduction or companion

That's an important part since -afaik- most of the backlash from PvP players isn't for getting new pvp modes, but instead from these ideas being -almost always- proposed as a way to replace the current one.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

But as pointed above, it should be consistent for both, PvE and PvP and you can be sure that many players would rage really hard if DE ever announced such a change. It has been the case with nearly every single rework, after all.

This is one of the biggest points I've brought up.

I say that the game wasn't designed for PvP given how all the PvE stuff works.

You say they changed a bunch of stuff for PvP specifically (which I already know, btw).

Then you say something like the quoted section above, but don't see the paradox? Let me put it another way. How much of it is still "Warframe"--as the vast majority of people know it from the PvE side of things--if you have to strip down a ton of features, have exclusive mods, and now we're talking about changing the movement system (which works mostly fine for PvE) to accommodate PvP? This is why I kept saying that I'm not opposed to the idea of a PvP game based on Warframe's concepts and world, but it really needs to be its own game. It will never get the proper love, attention, balances, fixes, extra modes, or even player count you want (and maybe it would otherwise deserve) as the afterthought that it is in this game.

  

41 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Also, there are plenty of PvE modes that could work wonders for PvP, starting by the obvious ones (Rathuum/Index) and then some others that could require minor tweaks to make sense, like Hijack (payload) or Interception (with 3 towers to encourage tactical teamplay).

 

I'll admit that these modes sound a lot more appealing than Conclave, but I don't see a way for that to work while the above issues exist.

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

his is one of the biggest points I've brought up.

I say that the game wasn't designed for PvP given how all the PvE stuff works.

You say they changed a bunch of stuff for PvP specifically (which I already know, btw).

Then you say something like the quoted section above, but don't see the paradox?

To be fair, it IS possible to keep mechanical consistency across different modes despite having different balance standards. There's a reason why conclave balance was made by heavily tweaking our power with a hige focus on the modding system -our biggest source of power in PvE- while core mechanics (gunplay, parkour and damage interactions) were kept as loyal to PvE as PvP balance can accept.

For instance, no matter if it's PvP or PvE, if you grab an unmodded Supra, it will have the same behavior in both modes; just like trying to bulletjump, roll, wall hop, etc will achieve exactly the same result regardless of frame and mode.

With that last thing in mind, I can see the paradox you're talking about since grineer and corpus gameplay doesn't seem to include many of warframe's core features at the moment. To go a bit further, seeing how DE keeps adding totally different ways to play the game (Archwing, Operator, Mining, Conservation, Fishing, K-Drives Necramechs - which came out of the blue-,  with grineer and corpus coming soon^TM) I would not be surprised if DE was trying to develop more games, BUT they kept slapping those into warframe instead because of reasons. None of the systems i mentioned plays like the core warframe experience, yet all of them are in the game anyways.

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

How much of it is still "Warframe"--as the vast majority of people know it from the PvE side of things--if you have to strip down a ton of features, have exclusive mods, and now we're talking about changing the movement system (which works mostly fine for PvE) to accommodate PvP?

Well, it DE could always go to rebalance the whole game around PvP and then make a PvE experience based on the PvP levels of warframes, that way people could have not only mechanical consistency, but also power consistency across both modes. It would require devs willing to put the huge amount of work it requires at this point while shrugging off any community complaints, and i legitimately think that warframe (PvE) as a whole could use a huge balance pass that would have both pros and cons, however, i don't see any need to elaborate further on that since it's unlikely for DE to ever make such a huge move. Especially keeping in mind that they have already gone back on much smaller changes due to community preemptive backlash

BTW, i think that the current parkour is amazing for PvP (As pointed in another post, i think that TTK could get reduced a bit to make up for our great mobility tools), a big issue about why many players think it doesn't work, IMO, boils down to how PvE doesn't encourage player mechanical progression; the few times it does, mechanical requirements can be easily bypassed anyways. The high sensitivity scaling doesn't help much either, making it even harder to get into.

 

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

It will never get the proper love, attention, balances, fixes, extra modes, or even player count you want (and maybe it would otherwise deserve) as the afterthought that it is in this game.

I'm not so sure about it. If it's made by DE, a decent part of the anti-pvp crowd could alway rage over PvE resources being taken away to keep a different PvP game they don't even want to play (back to square one), if DE hired another dev for it, they might fail to catch warframe's essence, and even if they did, the anti-pvp crowd could always fall back to
"Why isn't that other studio working on PvE too" or whatever, and with enough complaints DE could simply abandon that other game too. It wouldn't be the first time they'd be doing it after all.
 

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'll admit that these modes sound a lot more appealing than Conclave, but I don't see a way for that to work while the above issues exist.

idk either, modes like those encourage tactical gameplay, so i can't see them being added to conclave (wf vs wf), but would be a neat addition IF a grineer vs corpus ever got made.

[FrostDragoon]

50 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

snip, just to direct the reply

I think we've actually reached some common ground here. I agree with a lot of that reply, even if I might dispute minor details of it. I'll back off the sh*tposting here as a token of appreciation and good will. However, one point stood out to me:

50 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm not so sure about it. If it's made by DE, a decent part of the anti-pvp crowd could alway rage over PvE resources being taken away to keep a different PvP game they don't even want to play (back to square one), if DE hired another dev for it, they might fail to catch warframe's essence, and even if they did, the anti-pvp crowd could always fall back to
"Why isn't that other studio working on PvE too" or whatever, and with enough complaints DE could simply abandon that other game too. It wouldn't be the first time they'd be doing it after all.

I suspect this might be solvable through proper marketing and community management.

If DE decided, "Hey, we have this long-time fan who also plays the game, has development experience, and we want to hire him as our lead PvP developer," it probably could be accepted even among most of the PvE crowd. Knowing my position on this and that I would accept this should be a clue. The logic isn't actually that difficult. If the existing DE staff is devoted to the core game--the PvE side of it--and they specifically bring on a few people to address the PvP side of this, the opportunity cost issue would still be present, but would be largely mitigated. Given that he's still answerable to senior DE staff to keep things truly "Warframe," it would be hard for people to make claims to the contrary. Last I heard, DE currently has around 400 people that work on the game. What's another dozen or so?

The hard part here is that you still have to contend with the cost/benefit/reach analysis. It isn't the lack of good ideas to make PvP better that stops DE from doing so.

 

Edit:

Possibly unpopular opinion here, but I think the people behind Black Ops 3's parkour system did a pretty good job. Maybe see if a couple of them could help out if such a focused development team were formed.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

It's doomsday the sentients want us all dead. Infightings not a good idea.

[----Legacy----]

23 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I think we've actually reached some common ground here. I agree with a lot of that reply, even if I might dispute minor details of it. I'll back off the sh*tposting here as a token of appreciation and good will. However, one point stood out to me:

That's neat to know! Now i'm oving on from the other dark side of the discussion as well since now it looks a lot more reasonable.

26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I suspect this might be solvable through proper marketing and community management.

Even though i agree with you, this also shows that DE's marketing and community management has failed when it comes to PvP.

They haven't given good advertisement to attract new players to it, and the small advertisement they did for it was aimed at warframe players since at some point it was possible to interact with the devs through PvP (Reb and Megan would stream conclave matches during Prime Time, and seeing staff members in it wasn't rare, i fought several times against [DE]Zorro -spanish speaking community manager- and sometimes found other less known staff members).

Partly unrelated:

Spoiler

And since i'm already riding on this off-topic melancholy train, i'd like to give special recognizement to [DE]Aidan and [DE]Saske for being constantly in touch with players who reported issues, sometimes even asking in the conclave discord for help replicating bugs in order to get them fixed asap; to [DE]Joebuck who was doing a great work with pvp balance at that point and would always do it keeping player feedback in mind; and to[DE]Maciejs more than anyone else since he has kept working on everything related to dedicated servers until now. I think they could all do a neat job fxing the mess that has been created by DE's lack of attnetion to the mode, and if they ever got to fix it, you can be sure that 1 hour/month would be more than enough to keep conclave in a good state so they could still work in PvE related stuff anyways.

But then PoE came and everything started to slowly go downhill. There's a reason why Khora is the last frame that was added to the game that was also rebalanced for conclave, and it's a mixture stuff like anti-pvp players complaining over PvP events (which haven't come back despite putting everyone on an even ground), on top of DE moving on to the next big thing as they do all the time.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

If DE decided, "Hey, we have this long-time fan who also plays the game, has development experience, and we want to hire him as our lead PvP developer," it probably could be accepted even among most of the PvE crowd. Knowing my position on this and that I would accept this should be a clue. The logic isn't actually that difficult. If the existing DE staff is devoted to the core game--the PvE side of it--and they specifically bring on a few people to address the PvP side of this, the opportunity cost issue would still be present, but would be largely mitigated. Given that he's still answerable to senior DE staff to keep things truly "Warframe," it would be hard for people to make claims to the contrary. Last I heard, DE currently has around 400 people that work on the game. What's another dozen or so?

Iirc, that's literally how a random player named "Joebuck" became "[DE]Joebuck" and played a huge role in the conclave rework. Now he works on weapon design (he's the one behind mechanics like dual wielding or weapons like the Larkspur). Who says the same wouldn't happen in the future? Every single staff member i mentioned in the spoiler worked on PvP at some point, even though their tasks were shared with PvE at the time (except for Joebuck he was entirely focused on conclave back then), you can see how it went.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

The hard part here is that you still have to contend with the cost/benefit/reach analysis. It isn't the lack of good ideas to make PvP better that stops DE from doing so

Cost/benefit shouldn't be hard to nail since pvp requires an initial investment (implementation of a new mode, a huge fix to the existing one, or both) but after that the maintenance required is minimal, even more if they adress the glaring issues of pvp and fix them. The benefit is engaging content with replayable value with no need of adding new content to the mode every single month (we haven't gotten new rewards, weapons, nor frames in conclave for years, yet we can still enjoy it)

Reach can be harder to nail, that's an issue with DE's community management since they have put way too much emphasis on rewards instead of doing it on gameplay. I'm sure you have seen how content droughts start appearing as soon as people gets every single new reward from an update, and how the community loses interest quickly on every single mode that doesn't have evergreen rewards as soon as its "one and done" rewards are obtained. 

The community putting walls to keep new players away from pvp and shutting down any legitimate display of interest on it definitely won't help to increase DE's reach on that end. 

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Possibly unpopular opinion here, but I think the people behind Black Ops 3's parkour system did a pretty good job. Maybe see if a couple of them could help out if such a focused development team were formed.

Haven't played it, but watched some videos about it and made me wish adult operator gameplay was like that (yay!, more non-wf gimmicks!)

[FrostDragoon]

28 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Reach can be harder to nail, that's an issue with DE's community management since they have put way too much emphasis on rewards instead of doing it on gameplay. I'm sure you have seen how content droughts start appearing as soon as people gets every single new reward from an update, and how the community loses interest quickly on every single mode that doesn't have evergreen rewards as soon as its "one and done" rewards are obtained.

I've actually thought quite a bit about this point. Not as much in terms of PvP, but some. I have seen countless complaint threads that--in my view--stem from a rewards-centric view of the game rather than a gameplay-centric view. I find this a bit odd and ironic, because I've taken several extended breaks from the game and inevitably come back. It's not some new Prime thing to put in my arsenal that brings me back, though. It's the mobility and gunplay. Everything else is (and should be) in service to that. There's no way I could sink 5k+ hours (combined PC and PS4) into a game if the gameplay wasn't compelling on some level. I've even played alt accounts to lowish/mid MR and mostly finished star chart a couple times just to experience that fresh perspective again. New content modes interest me, but my fondest memories and nostalgia are well within the core game. Some of them date back to before we had void fissures and everyone had hundreds of forma blueprints because old void, lol.

I do think the lack of tangible rewards outside of Conclave keeps a lot of people from being interested in it, but when I tried Conclave it was the gameplay that pushed me away. It's entirely possible that things are different now, but I don't have much reason to believe that much changed in only a couple years. Maybe it will take an entirely different mode to capture the interest of people who didn't like or aren't interested in Conclave.

As for the "evergreen" rewards in these various systems, those are nice, but I don't think of those when I've been away from the game a long time and think, "Do I want to play Warframe again?" The content drought issue is surely tied to rewards in the way you described, but I do think the larger issue is how long many of these alternative modes (even just PvE ones) go without proper attention and fixes. I did the Sedna arena stuff long enough to get what I wanted and gtfo. I didn't like that game mode. I still regularly just join random newbies in 20m+ Survival missions just to help them out and have something to do. It's weird to think that mode is still interesting to me after all these years.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yeah, but you can say that about basically anything. DE's track record is poor for most old content, not just Conclave. Doesn't mean old content shouldn't get worked on. Raids, like you brought up, are likely to return for the third Orb fight. Should they not bring back Raids and try again because they gave up once before? Archwing was a flop and they failed multiple times working on the flight model, and is only barely limping along as a movement tool for open worlds and Railjack, yet that's getting more work done to it.

You're not the first to bring this up, and I'll say it again: you're using a bad thing as a justification for DE to continue to do a bad thing. That doesn't make sense. Pablo saying DE's not gonna rework any more frames is not a good thing! There are still frames that need updating, and DE's almost done with them. All they have left is really Hydroid and Loki, but they're going to give up now? DE abandoning content is a problem that's plagued the game for years, and just because they say "we don't wanna do anything about it anymore" doesn't mean it's no longer a problem.

The track record is bad for the fringe content. DE simply has a habbit of wanting WF to have everything other games have, without implementing it properly. Like you mention raids and archwing. Atleast those are PvE content in a PvE game. Not that raids will ever be popular unless DE does something magical or accept that the game needs a change for it to work, like ArenaNet did in GW2.  The core game of WF isnt suited for raids. It isnt enough to slap on some arbitrary puzzles that require a group, increasing the group cap and calling it a raid. I'm all for them giving it another try with raids, but people shouldnt expect a great outcome since the game is already against the concept. It isnt the first or last non traditional game that tries to add raids. The only one that has been successful has really been GW2, but they made their non traditional raids in a smart way in the open world, and for the traditional raids they added actual class options for tanking, healing/support and dps. All to make it worthwhile and engaging. When looking at the New War demo, DE really has the chance to add raids... without warframes involved, that also gives them the chance to give us tanking, healing/support and dps roles. It would also make sense, since the frames would still be the walking gods of death, while the mortal plebs need to work together. But all we will get are "raids" with the 3rd orb most likely.

Not a justification, just a perspective on DE priority. It is definently not a good thing. My point was more that if they cant be arsed to spend resources and time on frame reworks, then conclave or anything PvP related should be the furthest from ever getting any attention.

14 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Translation: you've run out of arguments and after having your fallacies pointed out one by one you escalate to the next level: 'Ad Hominem'

Your appeals to authority are especially weird. Who are all these people who have this same enlightened understanding of what is and isn't a dedicated server?

Even if you don't believe me (and everyone else who so far has said the same thing) DE and their official threads with people you could ask directly (funnily even pointed out in my previously quoted post from years ago) are definitely not that authority. So who is it then? I guess they would need to make a new thread with the title: "Real Dedicated Conclave Servers"

Go ask DE's maciejs what he has to say about it, I dare you again. You could even go watch his presentation he did on the topic, it's on Youtube and linked somewhere in there.

 

The only thing that's really left is for me to quote myself from earlier in this thread:

and

The official thread itself proves that they arent real dedicated servers since they allow you to play on the same machine that you run a server on. The quality will never be that of rented servers that are consistant across the board, with proper hardware, connections and so on. This is because you'll get players with bad rigs, bad connection, using wi-fi, playing while running servers on the same rig and all other forms of problems. And that is the issue I'm pointing out. Of course you are free to be content with potential trash when playing.

I'm really just not sure why you are against making it better if you want PvP more widespread. It is kinda like the people that are against dedicated servers for the whole game, saying P2P works "just fine" then you see the same person in another thread complaining about bugs related to MP clients and demanding DE to fix them. 

[OwlOfJune]

Can we please stop putting more games into Warframe? We got Wings that do nothing but basically fast travel, Titanfall that is used only in weirdly specific games, laggy Skate Pro, Most boring parts from Monster Hunter, Spaceship that became glorified truck. All of them being content island that becomes nothing but frustration. 

 

If there is to be an entire whole another PvP game, make it APART from warframe and license it out or whatever.

[(PSN)II2j-ZII]

I disagree. That would be much too slow.

[Lancars]

I don't like PVP at all. I'm against PVP.

But... I think the way the Grineer/Corpus characters are controlled it works out better for PVP then what we have now. You're not bouncing around mashing attacks to hope to hit something.

So even tho i dislike PVP i think a PVP mode using them is far better then PVP as Frames. Honestly just remove mods for the PVP mod and just have a setup like if you played unreal. Just pure fun without thinking about builds and such. I might consider trying PVP.