Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[----Legacy----]

3 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You entirely misunderstood the reply you quoted.

Care to clarify, then? Because the reply i quoted seems to completely have misunderstood my first comment here.

[xXDeadsinxX]

I’d absolutely love to see them add Corpus vs. Grineer PvP. It would be incredibly easier to balance for DE as well. Just add some dedicated servers and maybe some new maps to it and you’re good to go. Hell, you could take it a step further and add other enemies or even NPCs to be playable too, like Battlefront style. Imagine being able to play as Darvos or a different NPC in PvP, it’d be pretty cool to add.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Care to clarify, then? Because the reply i quoted seems to completely have misunderstood my first comment here.

I was saying that the mods between PvE and PvP are different, but the mechanics of the game itself--what abilities and weapons can actually do and how they interact--prevent PvP balance from being possible. The game was designed only with the PvE side of things in mind. Conclave was always just an afterthought.

While I do oppose wasting further time/resources on PvP in Warframe, I'm not opposed to a separate PvP-oriented game using the same world setting. I don't actually know of any game I would consider to be "successful" in having both options in the same game, keeping both sides balanced, and having both sides respective players as mostly happy with it.

[EmberStar]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

While I do oppose wasting further time/resources on PvP in Warframe, I'm not opposed to a separate PvP-oriented game using the same world setting. I don't actually know of any game I would consider to be "successful" in having both options in the same game, keeping both sides balanced, and having both sides respective players as mostly happy with it.

Well, there's Fortnite... oh, wait, they dropped the PVE mode like a bag of dog droppings when the "just because we could" Battle Royale mode turned into the hottest thing since Butter On Fire.  Overwatch?  Oh, right, there *isn't* a PVE mode.  All the interesting story and worldbuilding only exists in cinematic cutscenes that aren't even in the game.  Ditto for League of Legends.  GTA V?  Oh, right, they dropped all the single player DLC like a bag of hammers when GTA Online turned into a money printing machine.  God of War, Horizion:  Zero Dawn?  No, no, I guess those don't even have multiplayer.  Give me a moment, I'm sure there's an example somewhere...

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

but the mechanics of the game itself--what abilities and weapons can actually do and how they interact--prevent PvP balance from being possible.

Conclave uses different abilities, too.

[----Legacy----]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I was saying that the mods between PvE and PvP are different, but the mechanics of the game itself--what abilities and weapons can actually do and how they interact--prevent PvP balance from being possible.

 

The thing is, weapon behavior is mechanically consistent; values like recoil, spread and reload (overal weapon handling) are the same across PvE and PvP, the only things that change are damage output (rebalanced for lower warframe EHP values).

Abilities are mechanically the same too, only a few have a slightly tweaked behavior to prevent them from being entirely useless in a PvP environment (Desecrate, Terrify, Shadows of the Dead and Silence come to mid) or from being too overpowered on it (like Iron Skin).

18 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Conclave was always just an afterthought.

At this point warframe is composed by a lot more afterthoughts than what DE had initially planned. Might want to take a look at wf 2013 to realize how dumb is that part of the argument.

[(PSN)Unstar]

please no.  you're literally suggesting an entirely new game.  that's not the game i want to play, so i wouldn't want DE to take time away from Warframe to work on it.

[EmberStar]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

please no.  you're literally suggesting an entirely new game.  that's not the game i want to play, so i wouldn't want DE to take time away from Warframe to work on it.

But they're *already* taking time from "Warframe" to work on it.  "Play as Corpus/Grineer" was literally what they showed off for the TennoCon gameplay demo.  And since they *are* spending time on it, I'd like to not see them *waste* all that effort on a one-shot gimmick they use as the base for a single mission... then never touch again ever.  Since they've already spent the time, I don't think it would be a disaster if they just *finished it* and made it polished.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 12 minutos, EmberStar dijo:

But they're *already* taking time from "Warframe" to work on it.  "Play as Corpus/Grineer" was literally what they showed off for the TennoCon gameplay demo.  And since they *are* spending time on it, I'd like to not see them *waste* all that effort on a one-shot gimmick they use as the base for a single mission... then never touch again ever.  Since they've already spent the time, I don't think it would be a disaster if they just *finished it* and made it polished.

If does not have to be a pvp version, could be play as grineer/corpus vs AI, but for sure I agree with you. They ve taken time to do this, lets see where they wanna take us. 

[EmberStar]

22 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

If does not have to be a pvp version, could be play as grineer/corpus vs AI, but for sure I agree with you. They ve taken time to do this, lets see where they wanna take us. 

Oh, I'm not advocating for a PVP mode.  I'm one of the "hardline PVE" players that the PVP fans don't even bother to respond to unless it's to swat down everything I say with "you like PVE, your post is invalid."

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

I don't actually know of any game I would consider to be "successful" in having both options in the same game, keeping both sides balanced, and having both sides respective players as mostly happy with it.

Many MMO's manage it. DaoC, WoW and GW2 are three good examples. Well balanced PvP that doesnt impact PvE. Of course the balance isnt perfect, but that is something that naturally comes with rock/paper/scissor setups, overall though they are successful in both PvP and PvE.

To note, WoW did not start out that way, which made PvE suffer from changes in PvP. Eventually blizzard solved this by adding PvP gear with stat that balanced the output of damage between players through PvP stats such as Resilience. Reducing the potential of "PvE heroes" facerolling PvPers, while also making the PvP and PvE gear types more appropriate for their respective field of use. Most vanilla PvP sets filled no real purpose since they were just weaker gear options compared to PvE sets. With the introduction of resilience gear that changed, since someone in PvP gear was far more durable versus players than someone in PvE gear. This further evolved so now the PvP gear grants bonuses to both damage mitigation against players aswell as improved damage versus other players. Which means that the resilience stat negates itself when two players with the same quality of PvP gear fights, but when one of them wears PvE gear, the one in PvP gear will have a far higher advantage.

edit: Those games were also designed around PvP from the starts. In WF and games where it is an afterthought, the balance is hard or near impossible to achieve. Especially in games with 50-ish different "classes" to balance and hundreds of diffeent weapons.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Many MMO's manage it. DaoC, WoW and GW2 are three good examples. Well balanced PvP that doesnt impact PvE. Of course the balance isnt perfect, but that is something that naturally comes with rock/paper/scissor setups, overall though they are successful in both PvP and PvE.

WoW is actually the first thing that comes to mind when I think of failed balance in games that has both PvE and PvP.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 11 minutos, EmberStar dijo:

Oh, I'm not advocating for a PVP mode.  I'm one of the "hardline PVE" players that the PVP fans don't even bother to respond to unless it's to swat down everything I say with "you like PVE, your post is invalid."

Im not a PvP fan. And know what? I like the idea. Thats pretty disturbing... For some months i ve been thinking on giving pvp some new content, really replayable and fun. I thought k-drive races, or any kind of races tbh could do the job. But I was wrong, this is a much better idea. Although very complicated one too. They show us this path, but we need to know whats their proposition on this. Maybe their idea wasnt exactly a PvP, and its just another one. We need to know, and theres when they have to talk clearly. 

[DSMK2]

A fully featured spin-off game for faction vs faction PvP/PvE? Sure I'm fine with that, a lot of content for each faction exists now too. It'll have to explore the Origin System's conflicts when the Tenno aren't involved, and would have to further characterize the bosses that lead the factions, along with the grunts that follow them. Might not even be canon! With what-if scenarios, like if Grineer attempted to invade and hold Deimos.

It won't be a replacement for Warframe's PvP, but Warframe: Battlefront. Gameplay different from controlling a Warframe, equipment progression would all be side grades as they're unlocked, and unlockable classes to access different equipment trees and abilities not found in a regular grunt. The PvE gamemode in there would be vs Infested with Starship Troopers vibes, without the CC provided by Warframe abilities. I can imagine NPC Tenno coming in like a force of nature, going from a fixed point A to B, creating a kill zone for anyone in their path.

Simply just making the spin-off game an arena shooter would get old fast, it's gotta go the combined-arms gameplay route; thinking Planetside 2 or Angels Fall First.

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 hours ago, EmberStar said:

But they're *already* taking time from "Warframe" to work on it.  "Play as Corpus/Grineer" was literally what they showed off for the TennoCon gameplay demo.  And since they *are* spending time on it, I'd like to not see them *waste* all that effort on a one-shot gimmick they use as the base for a single mission... then never touch again ever.  Since they've already spent the time, I don't think it would be a disaster if they just *finished it* and made it polished.

I think you are vastly underestimating the difference in technical complexity of making a single-player PvE mission and making a multiplayer PvP game-mode.  These are vastly different things.  Just to throw out one small example, if something was made to be used for a single-player mission, it can generally have higher quality (more polygons, etc).  But if that same asset is intended to be used in multiplayer, it needs to be of a lesser quality.  Since DE has already made their assets for the single-player missions, these decisions have already been made.    You cannot simply "re-use" them in a context for which they were not made, not without significant re-works.  For an easy second example, you don't need to make your single-player missions work over a network, so it's quite possible that none of the tech in that demo is made to work in a networked game because if it was genuinely intended for a single-player game mode then making it network-safe would have been unnecessary and wasted work.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

Then find a less selfish way to tell other people they shouldn't get the content they want.

I never said others shouldn't get it, I said I'd prefer that DE put their efforts towards other content since their labor isn't infinite. You're inventing words, putting them in my mouth, and then getting salty at the words that I never actually said.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, (PSN)Unstar said:

I never said others shouldn't get it, I said I'd prefer that DE put their efforts towards other content since their labor isn't infinite. You're inventing words, putting them in my mouth, and then getting salty at the words that I never actually said.

🤔

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

that's not the game i want to play, so i wouldn't want DE to take time away from Warframe to work on it.

"I never said others shouldn't get content they want, only that I wouldn't want DE to work on the content they want because it's not what I want to play".

[EmberStar]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I think you are vastly underestimating the technical complexity of making a single-player PvE mission and making a multiplayer PvP game-mode.  These are vastly different things.  Just to throw out one small example, if something was made to be used for a single-player mission, it can generally have higher quality (more polygons, etc).  But if that same asset is intended to be used in multiplayer, it needs to be of a lesser quality.  Since DE has already made their assets for the single-player missions, these decisions have already been made.    You cannot simply "re-use" them in a context for which they were not made, not without significant re-works.  For an easy second example, you don't need to make your single-player missions work over a network, so it's quite possible that none of the tech in that demo is made to work in a networked game because if it was genuinely intended for a single-player game mode then making it network-safe would have been unnecessary and wasted work.

Reading comprehension for the win, please.  I am NOT one of the PVP fans here, I'm one of the ones they *dismiss* because I don't like PVP at all.  (Therefore, anything I have to say is automatically invalid.)

If you're going to pick fights, pick them with someone who is actually on the other side, yeah?

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

🤔

"I never said others shouldn't get content they want, only that I wouldn't want DE to work on the content they want because it's not what I want to play".

"i would prefer that DE not make this"

is not the same as

"other people shouldn't get this"

[PublikDomain]

Just now, (PSN)Unstar said:

"i would prefer that DE not make this"

is not the same as

"other people shouldn't get this"

In what way, lol? If you'd prefer DE not make this... Then that means other people wouldn't get this.

[f0ba]

Oh boi, player to player connection PVP is gonna be an ass to play with.

[DarkSkysz]

I doubt they will use resources to fund more pvp based gamemodes... conclave is already a big fail that rarely (if ever) gets any attention.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

If you'd prefer DE not make this... Then that means other people wouldn't get this.

If DE didn't make it, yes, people wouldn't get it.

If I prefer that DE not make it, then that would mean I prefer that other people don't get it.

But none of that means that I think they shouldn't get it.  My preferences don't dictate how things should be.  To assume that they do is to project a bizarre amount of self-importance onto me that I don't have, and it seems like it's that interpretation of self-importance that is making you feel like I deserve a talking to?

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If DE didn't make it, yes, people wouldn't get it.

If I prefer that DE not make it, then that would mean I prefer that other people don't get it.

But none of that means that I think they shouldn't get it.  My preferences don't dictate how things should be.  To assume that they do is to project a bizarre amount of self-importance onto me that I don't have, and it seems like it's that interpretation of self-importance that is making you feel like I deserve a talking to?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction. If you're prefer other people not get what they want, then you're saying they shouldn't get it. You would rather they not get it; you think it isn't something that should be added.

And yes, the bizarre self-importance that tends to crop up when people say DE shouldn't work on PvP ticks me right the heck off. So you wouldn't play it, who cares? It's not what you want to play, and that's fine. It's not about you. Let people ask for the things they want.

[(PSN)Unstar]

19 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

If you're going to pick fights, pick them with someone who is actually on the other side, yeah?

I think there might be multiple misunderstandings here.  First and foremost that while I might disagree, a fight is not what I want.

Second, didn't you reply to me as per the below?

2 hours ago, EmberStar said:

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

please no.  you're literally suggesting an entirely new game.  that's not the game i want to play, so i wouldn't want DE to take time away from Warframe to work on it.

But they're *already* taking time from "Warframe" to work on it.  "Play as Corpus/Grineer" was literally what they showed off for the TennoCon gameplay demo.  And since they *are* spending time on it, I'd like to not see them *waste* all that effort on a one-shot gimmick they use as the base for a single mission... then never touch again ever.  Since they've already spent the time, I don't think it would be a disaster if they just *finished it* and made it polished.

I was saying that I didn't want what OP was talking about, which was a PvP Grineer-vs-Corpus game.  If you genuinely weren't advocating for OP's proposed PvP game, then I'm not sure what you were trying to say.  Feel free to clarify if you like.