Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

WoW is actually the first thing that comes to mind when I think of failed balance in games that has both PvE and PvP.

Overall the balance is good, the problem in WoW and other similar games is that it comes down to which classes fight eachother since the game is composition focused. But that issue is the same in pure PvP games aswell. We can see that in Overwatch which is also rock/paper/scissor in setup and is balanced around team composition much more than solo play. It was the same in DaoC and GW2 aswell. While a Zerker in DaoC could curbstomp alot of things, it was often like running into a wall when facing a Friar 1vs1.

I think perfect balance in PvP can only ever really happen in games like Battlefield, where everyone has access to everything and actual player skill is what it comes down to in the end. There just arent any automatic direct upgrades in those game, the best gun for you can be the worst one for me and vice versa, and you dont have a class that is a direct counter to another, you just have classes that cater to different playstyles.

[FrostDragoon]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

If you create a feature poorly, people won't like it. That doesn't mean people don't want anything close to that feature, but people generally want things to be made well.

Conclave isn't in the state that it's in because people don't want PvP, rather Conclave is unpopular because it doesn't really work with Warframe's gameplay. the extremely wild mobility makes fights feel very random and confusing, and many of the Warframe abilities don't translate very well into Conclave. Grineer and Corpus can't bounce off the walls, jump through the air, and can have abilities designed exclusively for PvP, so they're more likely to work in a PvP mode than Warframes could by a long shot.

There's nothing that suggests they could manage that affair well, and server issues were still a problem even with dedicated servers. This game is just not built for it. It's a waste of time and energy that would only generate ire from the greater player base. Even games that exclusively design around PvP struggle to do it well and they often have years of practice, design, feedback, and community support: DE has none of these when it comes to PvP.

As stated, there isn't a rational argument for the pro-PvP side that DE could get behind.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Overall the balance is good, the problem in WoW and other similar games is that it comes down to which classes fight eachother since the game is composition focused. But that issue is the same in pure PvP games aswell. We can see that in Overwatch which is also rock/paper/scissor in setup and is balanced around team composition much more than solo play. It was the same in DaoC and GW2 aswell. While a Zerker in DaoC could curbstomp alot of things, it was often like running into a wall when facing a Friar 1vs1.

I think perfect balance in PvP can only ever really happen in games like Battlefield, where everyone has access to everything and actual player skill is what it comes down to in the end. There just arent any automatic direct upgrades in those game, the best gun for you can be the worst one for me and vice versa, and you dont have a class that is a direct counter to another, you just have classes that cater to different playstyles.

Can't comment on DAOC or Overwatch much as I never played them, but Battlefield was far from balanced. Its biggest gimmick ensures that any proper balancing can never occur: vehicles. That said, a game doesn't have to be "perfectly" balanced, but for PvP it needs to come quite close. If anything, I look at Warcraft 3 or StarCraft Brood War or 2 as the best examples, but those are in entirely different genres. I've never seen a shooter that I would consider to be well balanced, nor an MMORPG, and Warframe isn't quite both but is kind of close to being both. On the note of Overwatch, however, it's a shooter version of a moba and mobas are always wildly imbalanced (probably by design, since it's used to push MTX).

[SneakyErvin]

26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Can't comment on DAOC or Overwatch much as I never played them, but Battlefield was far from balanced. Its biggest gimmick ensures that any proper balancing can never occur: vehicles. That said, a game doesn't have to be "perfectly" balanced, but for PvP it needs to come quite close. If anything, I look at Warcraft 3 or StarCraft Brood War or 2 as the best examples, but those are in entirely different genres. I've never seen a shooter that I would consider to be well balanced, nor an MMORPG, and Warframe isn't quite both but is kind of close to being both. On the note of Overwatch, however, it's a shooter version of a moba and mobas are always wildly imbalanced (probably by design, since it's used to push MTX).

Vehicles are perfectly balanced in BF since we have plenty of tools to handle them. It comes down to skill just as anything else in those games. Attack choppers can be annoying, but that is mostly a thing on a select few maps where it is more the map balance that is poor. Like having a far too generous altitude limit and then lack of Tunguskas or similar at the same time. Though that has really only been an issue on a single BF3 map. And agreed, no game needs perfect balance, the 3 MMO's mentioned though have the balance they need since there are available counters and it promotes group play over 1vs1.

Overwatch is just Overwatch, it is designed with typical Blizzard mechanics. It is more that the MOBAs took from Blizzard, which is kinda natural given that DotA gave birth to MOBAs really. MOBAs went further, Overwatch has stayed with the basic Blizzard mechanics. You dont need to level in matches etc. to unlock skills, you dont need to purchase stuff in matches or in between. You get your archetype and that is it.

edit: I should point out my main point is that WF will never have balanced PvP since it has taken years for some of those other games to get to a really good spot and they were still made with PvP from the start. They are also all limited into a 3 archetype setup more or less, while warframe has near 50 different classes and zero actual archetypes. I mean, WF could have balanced PvP if they completely ignore current frames and just make a single conclave frame, or a game mode based on corpus vs grineer. But even then the game would have a hard time to support it due to lack of good server options.

[FrostDragoon]

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Vehicles are perfectly balanced in BF since we have plenty of tools to handle them.

I usually avoid the franchise because I disagree with this so much. Vehicles ruin the experience for me. It's the same problem I have with COH2. The infantry-based combat is the appeal and its counters to vehicles are just not that good--especially in BF1, the one I played the most (mainly because my closest gaming buddies played it non-stop and sort of bribed me into it by buying me a copy). The closest thing to good balance I've seen in a shooter, especially one featuring vehicles, was probably Halo 2. Otherwise, I avoid shooters that feature them like the plague. Similarly, I hate kill streaks in COD. I just want some straight up gunplay with minimal gimmicks. The COD4 (MW1) perks were cool with me, but Frag x3 and noob toobs undermined it quite a bit, as did the kill streaks, which is why I mainly played on Hardcore in that game. It wasn't perfectly balanced, but outside a few particular issues, it did a reasonably good job. This is what I want in shooter PvP. Warframe will never be this, so I can't support the idea of devs even dignifying these kinds of threads with any level of actual consideration. Warframe is simply an entirely different game that scratches a very different itch.

[Moogleoftheages]

I'd love the idea, I proposed the exact thing in 2016, all for it!

 

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

...

You've presented some alternative possibilities, none of which seem unreasonable.  I guess the part we agree on is that there's some amount of work that would need to be done, but that it's unclear how much work that would be.  But as you've stated, it could be lower than my estimate.

So I guess I'll say this: if the amount of work needed ends up being as low as you posit it may be, then I wouldn't have any qualms with a mode like this being made. My main concern was that people were significantly underestimating the required lift - and perhaps that's because I was overestimating the level of fidelity being expected? - but if that's not the case, yeah, go for it.

[PublikDomain]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

You've presented some alternative possibilities, none of which seem unreasonable.  I guess the part we agree on is that there's some amount of work that would need to be done, but that it's unclear how much work that would be.  But as you've stated, it could be lower than my estimate.

So I guess I'll say this: if the amount of work needed ends up being as low as you posit it may be, then I wouldn't have any qualms with a mode like this being made. My main concern was that people were significantly underestimating the required lift - and perhaps that's because I was overestimating the level of fidelity being expected? - but if that's not the case, yeah, go for it.

I mean, the Conclave community doesn't seem to be all that picky. Anything is better than the nothing they get now, and I don't think the number of tris on your character's face is a factor people really care about for that kind of content. Things like gameplay, pacing, and features are far more important. And much of that is just numbers tweaks, like weapon balance, or implementing features that already exist elsewhere in the game, like bots. The hard part's already been done for years. There might be interest in creating a more involved mode, like a Battlefield clone with vehicles and big maps and so on, but starting with some basic updates using existing assets would be far simpler and more practical.

[EmberStar]

8 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

There's a bit of comment in your self entitlement.

You're entitled to all the PVP you can stand.  Your options for it include:  Just about every other online game on the entire damn Internet.  I don't think it's *too* much to ask that ONE game stay mostly PVE.

[XzWasPzX]

What really impress me is that we are dedicating 5 detailed pages even discussing the idea. Has ever any pvp proposal got so much attention? Not from what i know. And on purpose,  we know so little, we should hear DE on this subject and their plans. 

[XzWasPzX]

hace 4 minutos, EmberStar dijo:

You're entitled to all the PVP you can stand.  Your options for it include:  Just about every other online game on the entire damn Internet.  I don't think it's *too* much to ask that ONE game stay mostly PVE.

Well to be fair now its not "mostly", its just "only pve" xD

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

3 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

we know so little, we should hear DE on this subject and their plans. 

So the reason many people (including myself) don't want to wait is because they're afraid that DE simply won't do anything further with these playable faction characters, when it's a mechanic with a lot of potential. It's better to put out an idea that gets rejected than to never have shared it.

edit: DE also has developed a habit of not saying what they're planning until it's mostly through development. Otherwise they get outrages by people mad that they didn't get exactly what was promised.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

On 2021-07-18 at 4:20 PM, V2lkyr said:

Playing as Corpus and Grineer? Sure.

PvP? No.

This.

 

I'd rather they focus more on lore/story based content. If you want PvP go play Conclave.

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, (XBOX)Regxxh dijo:

So the reason many people (including myself) don't want to wait is because they're afraid that DE simply won't do anything further with these playable faction characters, when it's a mechanic with a lot of potential. It's better to put out an idea that gets rejected than to never have shared it.

Idea is not going anywhere, we ve just seen the "battle" in action, different huds, etc, but the adventure itself its gonna take a time until it comes, personally im expecting them to release the adventure around Christmas, the topic will be over the table again when that happens. So there s plenty of time even to listen to DE, and discuss a proposal. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I'd rather they focus more on lore/story based content. If you want PvP go play Conclave.

Read up. We discussed why Conclave isn't a good PvP option, and how what a player wants the dev team to focus on will always be subjective.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

Idea is not going anywhere, we ve just seen the "battle" in action, different huds, etc, but the adventure itself its gonna take a time until it comes, personally im expecting them to release the adventure around Christmas, the topic will be over the table again when that happens. So there s plenty of time even to listen to DE, and discuss a proposal. 

There's not really a difference between posting it now and posting it then. The actual design points in the OP are not going to be taken into consideration, but the thread exists mainly to gauge player feedback on a further exploration of Warframe PvP, which is something we should know sooner rather than later.

[EmberStar]

15 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

What really impress me is that we are dedicating 5 detailed pages even discussing the idea. Has ever any pvp proposal got so much attention? Not from what i know. And on purpose,  we know so little, we should hear DE on this subject and their plans. 

Stalker Mode has, actually.  Several times.  Mostly that turned into a giant slapfight as a handful of sociopaths popped up saying "I can't wait to gank some noobs!"  Followed by the obvious reaction from the PVE faction of "BURN IT WITH FIRE!"  And a tiny number of people from each group trying to have anything resembling a rational conversation.  The last one was a couple of years ago, and got *really* heated because [DE]Scott (I think) had done an interview with Tactical Potato.  And during the interview, said that he couldn't imagine Stalker Mode going live with the ability to opt out.  Because if people could turn it off, the only people in that mode would be gankers, and players too new to know it had an off switch.

To say that "people freaked the hell out" would be like saying "great white sharks sometimes nibble on things."

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, (XBOX)Regxxh dijo:

There's not really a difference between posting it now and posting it then. The actual design points in the OP are not going to be taken into consideration, but the thread exists mainly to gauge player feedback on a further exploration of Warframe PvP, which is something we should know sooner rather than later.

The real question here is... This idea came "accidentally" or accidentally?

 

[EmberStar]

8 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Just to be clear: I said hardline "PvE-only" and I don't think that's an unfair mischaracterisation. Also note how I didn't shoot down any of your other comments here. I like PvE, too. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing this anymore.

It's almost like I was attempting to make a generalized statement about my experiences with PVP fans in general, and not aiming to single you out specifically.

[TeaHands]

Not trying to completely shut this down, but what exactly is the hook here? What is suppose to draw people in and want to do this specific PVP?

"Hey, I know you like Warframe, but what about a PVP mode where you are slower, have less maneuverability, and have a limited arsenal?"

Now that sounds fun for people who are bored of the usual Warframe gameplay but want to keep playing, but what about people getting into the game or are already happy and enjoy the current gameplay? There's nothing unique here besides playing as only 2 specific factions from the existing game. 

The New War gameplay looked interesting because of the context. All odds are stacked against you playing as Kahl and Veso. Normally you are playing as a god, but here the sky is falling and all you have is a gun, grenades, and some companions you can summon. All the while being ordered to march into your doom.

Now take away all that context and all we have is some slow paced, back and forth shooting in a game with no cover system.

If DE could pull of a huge Battlefield-esque all-out-war deal, or we have an Overwatch type Hero PVP system, that would be cool. But lets face it, the gameplay we would get is The Index but you can't jump.

[EmberStar]

9 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

 But lets face it, the gameplay we would get is The Index but you can't jump.

I don't PVP.  (Obviously.)  But a complaint I've seen a few times is that one of the biggest barriers for new players is the gap between "shooting at an NPC" and "shooting at a player who is bouncing around the map like an air molecule hopped up on Red Bull."  The assumption seems to be that if the movement was flattened a bit, maybe it wouldn't be quite as daunting for new players (and not such a rofl-stomp for experienced ones.)

[TeaHands]

1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

I don't PVP.  (Obviously.)  But a complaint I've seen a few times is that one of the biggest barriers for new players is the gap between "shooting at an NPC" and "shooting at a player who is bouncing around the map like an air molecule hopped up on Red Bull."  The assumption seems to be that if the movement was flattened a bit, maybe it wouldn't be quite as daunting for new players (and not such a rofl-stomp for experienced ones.)

I agree if it were flattened a bit it would be easier to play, but from the demo we saw. They can't even climb over ledges, let alone jump. The movement in the demo was not reigned in a bit, it was completely ripped out.  Besides Teshin, which I feel like falls back into the 

3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

 "shooting at a player who is bouncing around the map like an air molecule hopped up on Red Bull." 

Maybe give everyone the fancy grappling hook and put a cooldown on it, but at this point it's pure speculation and probably not what DE would do.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

You're entitled to all the PVP you can stand.  Your options for it include:  Just about every other online game on the entire damn Internet.  I don't think it's *too* much to ask that ONE game stay mostly PVE.

We may like different aspects of warframe, but there is a reason why i'm not playing Overwatch, CSGO, Destiny, Battlefront or whatever; reason that most likely has some overlap with why you aren't playing other games like Doom (campaign), Skyrim, Super Mario, Dead Space, Nier series, Dynasty Warriors, Left 4 Dead, or literally any other similar game out there.

It might come as a shocker, but Warframe isn't the only game in the market, let alone the only one with PvE, so there is no need to send people playing it out to other games just for enjoying something you don't want to interact with (and have no reason to even do it anyways) in *your precious* game.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

27 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

"Hey, I know you like Warframe, but what about a PVP mode where you are slower, have less maneuverability, and have a limited arsenal?"

So the main point of a PvP mode like this would be that it's easier to polish than Conclave is. If we made a PvP mode that incorporated the gameplay of Warframe, we'd have Conclave, and we see that Conclave isn't popular. This mode doesn't have the elements of Conclave that make the gameplay feel frustrating, so it can be used to see if PvP is a good alternative, and if it is, maybe Conclave could be seen as something worth redesigning. 

As for the hook, I think PvP is itself a good hook, as it's engaging content that varies from game to game. Having something that you can quickly hop into when you're bored is great, and where Conclave could be that, its design gives an advantage to players that have already engaged with the PvE content, which makes it less fair for the people who aren't on that level yet.

Now, DE could lock PvE cosmetics behind PvP to create a small incentive, like they have with Conclave, but I don't think anyone would actually be in favor of that besides the same kind of snobby PvP elitists that got Universal Medallions changed to not work in Conclave.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

It's almost like I was attempting to make a generalized statement about my experiences with PVP fans in general, and not aiming to single you out specifically.

Your comments are literally just "No PvP in warframe, PvP players go find another game" while you also claim that we are the one who just dismiss your comments. That's a huge wall  of self defensive projection you got there.