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Its time to make the case to reconsider a first person view option.


Faulcun
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Before anybody says "DE said explicitly on such and such date that this would never be a thing", I assure you i'm well aware, because i was there when they said it.

However, DE has made definitive statements over the years about a great many things, and flip flopped around and went against what they've said anyways even if a few years down the road.

For example, DE stated that even though cross play would be great, they did not want to delay pc updates and content while console content is stuck waiting to go through cert processes. This is clearly not their stance anymore since their announcement at tennocon.

Another example that comes to mind is lato/braton vandal being exclusive to early/alpha players. Obviously we can all see them reintroduced now in onslaught.

There have been a number of other examples from login rewards, to the damage system, to entire content removal, and even policy changes over the last 8 years.

The point i'm trying to make, based on the reasoning always given  "this game is still beta and we grow and learn together", is that its time to reconsider their stance on first person view. Personally I know at least a dozen people inside and outside our clan who absolutely refuse to play this game simply because its third person view. There are a few people within our clan who do play who would love to see a VR option as well.

The only reason I can come up with for resisting a first person view, is that DE wants to show off their hard worked animations and make sure the player can watch their character do all kinds of cool space ninja stuff. After 8 years, and 5000 hours, I assure you a lot of us don't even see it anymore. We are too focused on playing the game, than watching ourselves play the game.  I believe evidence of this can be seen in DE's latest nerfs to melee where they've stated that too much melee speed breaks the animations, and a large concern was reducing that.

Epic games did first person view flawlessly in unreal tournament 2003/2004 almost 20 years ago. As a player, you moved around with the view as normal, however coming across another player would show them flipping off walls and doing all kinds of parkour stuff. The double taps and wall jumps did not affect the players view. In fact, the same could be said now where our current view is third person but stays normal while we see ourselves and our teammates flipping around doing whatever. However this only applies to an active mission. Now currently, in a relay or dojo, the only animations we can see are emotes, or ourselves flipping around. Due to the nature of the system, when we watch other players we see nothing except some kind of moon walk as they are jumping through the air. Mirrors Edge is another more modern example of first person parkour while being perfectly playable.

There are many games that implement both views as options as well. Minecraft and unreal tournament both have first person view default, with a third person view option, while games like world of warcraft or elder scrolls were default third person view with a first person view option.

There is also a different level of immersion for some people in first person view. It makes us feel like we're closer to being there rather than being detached watching something else be there for us. There is a difference in experience in your surroundings and the scale of the environment you are in. After almost a decade of development, I think it would be foolish to dismiss options to increase or change the immersion values of the current game.

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From what little I know of first person view, the problem isn't so much how the window would flip around.  As you said, that problem is solvable.  The problem is the first person view of the character.

Wait, what?

Think about it.  Nearly every game shows at least your forearms and hands holding the weapon.  We'll assume they can just use the existing model of the weapon itself.  Some games have tried to stick the camera to the character's head, which sometimes sort of works but (ironically enough) "looks weird" to a lot of people.  Quite a few games actually have a separate model and animation rig, which is just the arms up to the shoulders.  The shoulders are often on either side of the camera (but out of sight) which means that the actual point of view is from the center of the player character's chest.  The one example I'm familiar with is "Ark:  Survival Evolved" which does *exactly* this, to the point that the whole thing sort of breaks with really high FOV settings since you can see the disembodied arms floating at the edges of the screen.

Anyway, back on topic.  Warframe would have to solve that issue in one of two ways - either plop the whole character model down and stick a go-pro to their nose, or create a "first person" set of arms for every Warframe.  And Deluxe skin.  And the Prime versions.  They'd probably also have to create new "aim down sights" and "reload" animations, since aiming is set up so that the weapon (mostly) doesn't completely block the screen in third person, and reload animations are just "anything goes."

And that's just the two bits that I'm barely knowledgeable enough to point out, nevermind the technical issues that could (and almost certainly will) be listed by someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.  Just the rigging for "first person arms" for all the existing Warframes, and variants of Warframes would be non-trivial.  And that's not even counting the fact that some weapons are freaking huge and would cover half the screen even when held "at the hip," or have weird shapes that would make any kind of "aim down sights" view *at all* really problematic.  I mean... really, how the hell does our Warframe actually *aim* the Cernos Proboscis?  OnO

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1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

Before anybody says "DE said explicitly on such and such date that this would never be a thing", I assure you i'm well aware, because i was there when they said it.

However, DE has made definitive statements over the years about a great many things, and flip flopped around and went against what they've said anyways even if a few years down the road.

For example, DE stated that even though cross play would be great, they did not want to delay pc updates and content while console content is stuck waiting to go through cert processes. This is clearly not their stance anymore since their announcement at tennocon.

Another example that comes to mind is lato/braton vandal being exclusive to early/alpha players. Obviously we can all see them reintroduced now in onslaught.

There have been a number of other examples from login rewards, to the damage system, to entire content removal, and even policy changes over the last 8 years.

I would just like to add and remind people that ''open worlds'' were one of these ''things that could never happen'', too.

52 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

From what little I know of first person view, the problem isn't so much how the window would flip around.  As you said, that problem is solvable.  The problem is the first person view of the character.

Wait, what?

Think about it.  Nearly every game shows at least your forearms and hands holding the weapon.  We'll assume they can just use the existing model of the weapon itself.  Some games have tried to stick the camera to the character's head, which sometimes sort of works but (ironically enough) "looks weird" to a lot of people.  Quite a few games actually have a separate model and animation rig, which is just the arms up to the shoulders.  The shoulders are often on either side of the camera (but out of sight) which means that the actual point of view is from the center of the player character's chest.  The one example I'm familiar with is "Ark:  Survival Evolved" which does *exactly* this, to the point that the whole thing sort of breaks with really high FOV settings since you can see the disembodied arms floating at the edges of the screen.

Anyway, back on topic.  Warframe would have to solve that issue in one of two ways - either plop the whole character model down and stick a go-pro to their nose, or create a "first person" set of arms for every Warframe.  And Deluxe skin.  And the Prime versions.  They'd probably also have to create new "aim down sights" and "reload" animations, since aiming is set up so that the weapon (mostly) doesn't completely block the screen in third person, and reload animations are just "anything goes."

And that's just the two bits that I'm barely knowledgeable enough to point out, nevermind the technical issues that could (and almost certainly will) be listed by someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.  Just the rigging for "first person arms" for all the existing Warframes, and variants of Warframes would be non-trivial.  And that's not even counting the fact that some weapons are freaking huge and would cover half the screen even when held "at the hip," or have weird shapes that would make any kind of "aim down sights" view *at all* really problematic.  I mean... really, how the hell does our Warframe actually *aim* the Cernos Proboscis?  OnO

Fair point...
Easy mode solution: Just don't...like, any of those things.
- ''Ok, but what does that mean?''
Well, have you aimed with any of the scoped weapons in the game (Snipers, Buzzlock, Knell, Arca Scisco)? Ya um, that...but for everything.

I will admit, it's probably gonna be less satisfying for a lot of people... And I will also admit that I have a personal bias towards this particular style of First Pearson view. Nostalgia from playing Ghost Recon: Jungle Storm when I was young [Back in my day, all we had was different crosshairs and they were majestic!).

Technically it is a way it could be done; with enough effort, it can even be sufficently stylish, and still easier on the devs.

Edited by AlphaPHENIX
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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Full House No GIF

So basically, what you are saying is I cant have something as simple as an option for something, simply because you dont like it?

Please elaborate as to why somebody doesnt deserve an option for something they enjoy when you have no obligation to use it in the first place.

 

2 hours ago, EmberStar said:

From what little I know of first person view, the problem isn't so much how the window would flip around.  As you said, that problem is solvable.  The problem is the first person view of the character.

Wait, what?

Think about it.  Nearly every game shows at least your forearms and hands holding the weapon.  We'll assume they can just use the existing model of the weapon itself.  Some games have tried to stick the camera to the character's head, which sometimes sort of works but (ironically enough) "looks weird" to a lot of people.  Quite a few games actually have a separate model and animation rig, which is just the arms up to the shoulders.  The shoulders are often on either side of the camera (but out of sight) which means that the actual point of view is from the center of the player character's chest.  The one example I'm familiar with is "Ark:  Survival Evolved" which does *exactly* this, to the point that the whole thing sort of breaks with really high FOV settings since you can see the disembodied arms floating at the edges of the screen.

Anyway, back on topic.  Warframe would have to solve that issue in one of two ways - either plop the whole character model down and stick a go-pro to their nose, or create a "first person" set of arms for every Warframe.  And Deluxe skin.  And the Prime versions.  They'd probably also have to create new "aim down sights" and "reload" animations, since aiming is set up so that the weapon (mostly) doesn't completely block the screen in third person, and reload animations are just "anything goes."

And that's just the two bits that I'm barely knowledgeable enough to point out, nevermind the technical issues that could (and almost certainly will) be listed by someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.  Just the rigging for "first person arms" for all the existing Warframes, and variants of Warframes would be non-trivial.  And that's not even counting the fact that some weapons are freaking huge and would cover half the screen even when held "at the hip," or have weird shapes that would make any kind of "aim down sights" view *at all* really problematic.  I mean... really, how the hell does our Warframe actually *aim* the Cernos Proboscis?  OnO

First off, thank you for the intelligent reply.

I agree it would require some new animations and content. Ultimately in the past it may have started with a choice to not have to do the work, possibly do to a lack of team. But they have quite a massive team developing this game now that they seem confident in some fashion that they can keep up with multiple systems and platforms.

The whole point of expanding to new platforms is to maximize income sources for their free to play game. The argument could be made that developing for maximum audience is beneficial as well. Since implementing for mobile devices is about as end of the road as you can go, there is no reason not to design features that appeal to people who dont play the game for one reason or another.

I look at it as an opportunity to really expand on current equipment and really dive into the environment that is warframe from a new perspective. I mean.... what would it be like to aim with a LOT of weapons in warframe.... Wouldnt you like to find out? Thats an experience or level of immersion we may never get to feel.

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7 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

So basically, what you are saying is I cant have something as simple as an option for something, simply because you dont like it?

Please elaborate as to why somebody doesnt deserve an option for something they enjoy when you have no obligation to use it in the first place.

 

You tell me why you're so special that they should do first person view for you.

Theres too much work involved for just "an option" and especially for a way they didn't vision the game.

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Just now, Faulcun said:

So basically, what you are saying is I cant have something as simple as an option for something, simply because you dont like it?

Please elaborate as to why somebody doesnt deserve an option for something they enjoy when you have no obligation to use it in the first place.

What I'm saying is your suggestion is wholly unreasonable given what Warframe is. It is not a FPS and adding FPS options is a terrible idea. The movement and mechanics do not work with first person perspectives in mind and you're delusional if you think DE would/could implement this adequately. You think this is a simple thing but it absolutely is not. It is an optimistic idea that fundamentally can't work within the scope of Warframe. 

Slapping on first person perspective (which would include modeling of hands, adjustment of gun/weapon models to stop blocking camera, adjustment of player movment+animations etc.) is so far beyond 'simple'. You're asking them to spend hundreds and hundreds of man-hours adding in first person perspective, then calling me out because "I don't want it"?

Brother, no one wants it. That's why it isn't discussed nor is it in development. Requesting such a feature is fine for you and the handful of people who agree with you but your request is similar to having first person perspective added to the first Legend of Zelda game. Wrong type of game for that.

First person perspective works with mostly horizontal movement. Warframe is largely vertical. Have you ever tried first person perspective with vertical movement aside from jump (double jump) and possibly a jetpack? It is awkward AF.

This is also why third person cameras in mostly FPS games (fallout 4, skyrim etc.) have janky, stiff animations. Unless the game was designed from the ground up with both perspectives in mind, you can't just add first person perspective to a game like this and have it work.

If you have an example of first person perspective, in gaming, with anywhere near the freedom of control that Warframe has I'm happy to eat my words. I don't think such a game exists and DE sure as heck isn't the developer to innovate this into existence. If they did it would be janky AF.

 

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20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What I'm saying is your suggestion is wholly unreasonable given what Warframe is. It is not a FPS and adding FPS options is a terrible idea. The movement and mechanics do not work with first person perspectives in mind and you're delusional if you think DE would/could implement this adequately. You think this is a simple thing but it absolutely is not. It is an optimistic idea that fundamentally can't work within the scope of Warframe. 

False, false, and false. These are all your misguided opinions and you are wrong at every step.

21 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

modeling of hands

unnecessary, plenty of FPS games with "real" first-person (no viewmodels)

21 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

adjustment of gun/weapon models to stop blocking camera

unnecessary, just place the camera better

21 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

adjustment of player movment+animations etc.

unnecessary, see above

22 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You're asking them to spend hundreds and hundreds of man-hours adding in first person perspective, then calling me out because "I don't want it"?

motte and bailey argument. You cross the motte to make bad arguments about the unfeasability of such a thing and how many man-hours it would require and then retreat to the bailey of personal offense. Disgusting.

23 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Brother, no one wants it.

False. You even admit as such in your next sentence. You know people want it, but saying "no one" wants it is an attempt to shore up the legitimacy of your argument, which you know is lacking.

24 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

your request is similar to having first person perspective added to the first Legend of Zelda game.

No it isn't, and you know why it isn't. Another bad, ill-founded, and intellectually dishonest argument. Besides, someone already did this, it wasn't even that hard, an inexperienced amateur game developer did it in 2 months by himself.

25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

First person perspective works with mostly horizontal movement. Warframe is largely vertical. Have you ever tried first person perspective with vertical movement aside from jump (double jump) and possibly a jetpack? It is awkward AF.

You know nothing of video games history. Go back to 1994 and play Descent.

25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is also why third person cameras in mostly FPS games (fallout 4, skyrim etc.) have janky, stiff animations.

The characters in those games use the same animations as NPCs; your argument is invalid. Those games have janky, stiff animations because Bethesda can't animate.

26 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

If you have an example of first person perspective, in gaming, with anywhere near the freedom of control that Warframe has I'm happy to eat my words. I don't think such a game exists and DE sure as heck isn't the developer to innovate this into existence. If they did it would be janky AF.

Are you? Are you really? Because yeah, plenty of games exist like this. Try Ghostrunner. Try Ultrakill. Play Titanfall. Try the later levels of Cruelty Squad after you get the death upgrade. Try Warsow. Try Double Action Boogaloo. Try Severed Steel, which is actually way MORE involved mechanically than Warframe. Try any number of other games that are faster and more difficult than this ridiculously easy online grindfest.

Stop making excuse for DE. This game doesn't have first-person mode because they don't want it to have it. That's the only reason.

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Well with the design and technical issues that may creep up in mind, I would settle for our character vanishing when in tight spaces. I don't mind not having to see the arms and hands, or reload animations. The crosshair remaining will do just fine. It annoys me to no end that in some narrower maps all you see is the back of your character when you need to take a shot.

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7 minutes ago, logistical said:

You tell me why you're so special that they should do first person view for you.

Theres too much work involved for just "an option" and especially for a way they didn't vision the game.

Because im not the only one. There have been many many threads on the same topic over the last 8 years. There are over 40 million registered users in warframe, and those numbers are a few years old now. In the software industry, for every 1 complaint, there are 1000 people experiencing the same issue who have said nothing. In my case, my community happens to be a multi gaming community. Within my community, i have a dozen people alone saying the same thing.

DE said it themselves. Visions can change. Not only was open world play never supposed to be a thing, but dancing was never supposed to be in warframe either.

5 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What I'm saying is your suggestion is wholly unreasonable given what Warframe is. It is not a FPS and adding FPS options is a terrible idea. The movement and mechanics do not work with first person perspectives in mind and you're delusional if you think DE would/could implement this adequately. You think this is a simple thing but it absolutely is not. It is an optimistic idea that fundamentally can't work within the scope of Warframe. 

Slapping on first person perspective (which would include modeling of hands, adjustment of gun/weapon models to stop blocking camera, adjustment of player movment+animations etc.) is so far beyond 'simple'. You're asking them to spend hundreds and hundreds of man-hours adding in first person perspective, then calling me out because "I don't want it"?

Brother, no one wants it. That's why it isn't discussed nor is it in development. Requesting such a feature is fine for you and the handful of people who agree with you but your request is similar to having first person perspective added to the first Legend of Zelda game. Wrong type of game for that.

First person perspective works with mostly horizontal movement. Warframe is largely vertical. Have you ever tried first person perspective with vertical movement aside from jump (double jump) and possibly a jetpack? It is awkward AF.

This is also why third person cameras in mostly FPS games (fallout 4, skyrim etc.) have janky, stiff animations. Unless the game was designed from the ground up with both perspectives in mind, you can't just add first person perspective to a game like this and have it work.

If you have an example of first person perspective, in gaming, with anywhere near the freedom of control that Warframe has I'm happy to eat my words. I don't think such a game exists and DE sure as heck isn't the developer to innovate this into existence. If they did it would be janky AF.

 

I dont think its unreasonable. I think warframe is the perfect game to keep breaking the mold. I spent many years playing alien vs predator 2 as alien which had the ability to launch itself across the map at any angle, and wall walk on any surface including upside down. You might not have the stomach for it, but I learned to do this type of gameplay 20 years ago.

For the record, I grew up with A Link To The Past. Id give one of my kidneys to experience that game in first person view.

Btw, Titanfall 2 did a pretty decent job too.

 

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20 minutes ago, auxy said:

False, false, and false. These are all your misguided opinions and you are wrong at every step.

unnecessary, plenty of FPS games with "real" first-person (no viewmodels)

unnecessary, just place the camera better

unnecessary, see above

motte and bailey argument. You cross the motte to make bad arguments about the unfeasability of such a thing and how many man-hours it would require and then retreat to the bailey of personal offense. Disgusting.

False. You even admit as such in your next sentence. You know people want it, but saying "no one" wants it is an attempt to shore up the legitimacy of your argument, which you know is lacking.

No it isn't, and you know why it isn't. Another bad, ill-founded, and intellectually dishonest argument. Besides, someone already did this, it wasn't even that hard, an inexperienced amateur game developer did it in 2 months by himself.

You know nothing of video games history. Go back to 1994 and play Descent.

The characters in those games use the same animations as NPCs; your argument is invalid. Those games have janky, stiff animations because Bethesda can't animate.

Are you? Are you really? Because yeah, plenty of games exist like this. Try Ghostrunner. Try Ultrakill. Play Titanfall. Try the later levels of Cruelty Squad after you get the death upgrade. Try Warsow. Try Double Action Boogaloo. Try Severed Steel, which is actually way MORE involved mechanically than Warframe. Try any number of other games that are faster and more difficult than this ridiculously easy online grindfest.

Stop making excuse for DE. This game doesn't have first-person mode because they don't want it to have it. That's the only reason.

I want to acknowledge that I read your response and I appreciate the difference in opinion we share but I doubt we're going to come to some common ground.

king keraun cowboy hat GIF by Fuse

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9 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Because im not the only one. There have been many many threads on the same topic over the last 8 years. There are over 40 million registered users in warframe, and those numbers are a few years old now. In the software industry, for every 1 complaint, there are 1000 people experiencing the same issue who have said nothing. In my case, my community happens to be a multi gaming community. Within my community, i have a dozen people alone saying the same thing.

DE said it themselves. Visions can change. Not only was open world play never supposed to be a thing, but dancing was never supposed to be in warframe either.

I dont think its unreasonable. I think warframe is the perfect game to keep breaking the mold. I spent many years playing alien vs predator 2 as alien which had the ability to launch itself across the map at any angle, and wall walk on any surface including upside down. You might not have the stomach for it, but I learned to do this type of gameplay 20 years ago.

For the record, I grew up with A Link To The Past. Id give one of my kidneys to experience that game in first person view.

Btw, Titanfall 2 did a pretty decent job too.

 

I do apprecaite the movment of Titanfall but it fits the exact criteria I mentioned. Doublejump with jetpack.

Warframe's movement system has a lot more going on than this and much of it is head-rotation. You couldn't just stick a first person perspective camera inside a warframe model, or something. It would need to be an entirely different system. This would not be simple to implement.

Warframe has aimglide, bullet jump (which has head rotation), momentum-stopping mid jump and other things that would be very janky if implemented for the reasons I stated above.

Thanks for sharing the Titanfall video though. I haven't seen/played that game before and it certainly does have movement that is somewhat similar to warframe (albeit far more basic).

 

Edit: I also want to add that I too played a lot of Alien vs Predator 2 and the alien movement was incredibly disorienting. That's actually the kind of thing that made me think this whole concept wouldn't work.

Edited by Leqesai
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2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I do apprecaite the movment of Titanfall but it fits the exact criteria I mentioned. Doublejump with jetpack.

Warframe's movement system has a lot more going on than this and much of it is head-rotation. You couldn't just stick a first person perspective camera inside a warframe model, or something. It would need to be an entirely different system. This would not be simple to implement.

Warframe has aimglide, bullet jump (which has head rotation), momentum-stopping mid jump and other things that would be very janky if implemented for the reasons I stated above.

Thanks for sharing the Titanfall video though. I haven't seen/played that game before and it certainly does have movement that is somewhat similar to warframe (albeit far more basic).

Did you watch the video to the end? It gets crazier as the video goes on using grappling hooks and really clearing the whole map without touching the ground. Its very similar to warframe at higher level. There are limitations of course, as titanfall is not warframe, nor was it meant to be warframe. But that doesnt mean its not possible, and at the very least, proof of concept.

And that video of ALTTP is awesome lol. I dont know how much there is of that, but that was the dungeon where you rescue zelda when the game first starts. Very cool lol

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11 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Thanks for sharing the Titanfall video though. I haven't seen/played that game before and it certainly does have movement that is somewhat similar to warframe (albeit far more basic).

Excellent game. Highly recommend 👍. The campaign has a lot of fun gameplay

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1 minute ago, Faulcun said:

Did you watch the video to the end? It gets crazier as the video goes on using grappling hooks and really clearing the whole map without touching the ground. Its very similar to warframe at higher level. There are limitations of course, as titanfall is not warframe, nor was it meant to be warframe. But that doesnt mean its not possible, and at the very least, proof of concept.

And that video of ALTTP is awesome lol. I dont know how much there is of that, but that was the dungeon where you rescue zelda when the game first starts. Very cool lol

I did watch it to the end yeah. I definitely see where you're coming from but it doesn't change my position.

Basically what I'm saying is this: You said it is a simple change. I don't think it would be simple at all. The titanfall gameplay is really cool but it shows the hand model. It also has fixed head positioning which warframe doesn't have. If Warframe had fixed-view from first person it would look really weird when bullet jumping and doing other animations that spin the player model (melee has a ton of these). The frames, weapon models, and ephemeras would all further contribute to this being complicated in both development and implementation. 

DE is pretty innovative but at the same time they rarely do things in a polished/refined way. What you're asking for would necessitate refinement for it to not cause motion sickness. I simply don't think this is possible within the scope of DE's capability. 

I mean... they are working on crossplay/save so who knows... maybe they could pull it off. I seriously doubt it though. And I'm fairly certain that crossplay/save will be unbelievabley buggy when it comes. I hope it won't but I'm not holding my breath. I've been around too long and seen too many mainline bug-messes to believe it will be polished.

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9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Excellent game. Highly recommend 👍. The campaign has a lot of fun gameplay

I wasn't aware it had a campaign. That's actually the reason I avoided it. I thought it was a multiplayer arena game like overwatch or something.

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3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I wasn't aware it had a campaign. That's actually the reason I avoided it. I thought it was a multiplayer arena game like overwatch or something.

The original *was* just multiplayer.  The sequel does have a single player story campaign... but because EA didn't really bother to market it, not many people are aware of that.  EA, of course, seems perfectly willing to use the low sales figures to justify not producing *other* single player games.

"Gamers don't want story based games.  See how poor this one did?"

"But you didn't tell anyone it's single player or that there WAS a story!"

"Irrelevant.  It didn't sell, and that supports the narrative we're trying to push.  Now, can I interest you in spending a few thousand dollars on Ultimate Team cards for FIFA 2021?  There's only a few months until FIFA 2022 comes out and we throw the whole multiplayer mode in the bin for the new one!  Better get started now!"

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7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I did watch it to the end yeah. I definitely see where you're coming from but it doesn't change my position.

Basically what I'm saying is this: You said it is a simple change. I don't think it would be simple at all. The titanfall gameplay is really cool but it shows the hand model. It also has fixed head positioning which warframe doesn't have. If Warframe had fixed-view from first person it would look really weird when bullet jumping and doing other animations that spin the player model (melee has a ton of these). The frames, weapon models, and ephemeras would all further contribute to this being complicated in both development and implementation. 

DE is pretty innovative but at the same time they rarely do things in a polished/refined way. What you're asking for would necessitate refinement for it to not cause motion sickness. I simply don't think this is possible within the scope of DE's capability. 

I mean... they are working on crossplay/save so who knows... maybe they could pull it off. I seriously doubt it though. And I'm fairly certain that crossplay/save will be unbelievabley buggy when it comes. I hope it won't but I'm not holding my breath. I've been around too long and seen too many mainline bug-messes to believe it will be polished.

Oh wait, let me clarify something. Ive never said simple change. I did not suggest it was a simple change or feature to implement. In fact ive spoken to the contrary in that regard. Im well aware of the design time needed to do things correctly.

The simple option I was making reference to is on the end user side with the mere choice of playing in first person view, or third, and not being forced to do one or the other.

No, I do not expect the view to change while bullet jumping. I expect the view to stay fixed while my character is flipping upside down, just like in unreal tournament. Other players would see you doing it, however you would not see yourself doing it. I do not expect to see ephemeras either. As I stated in my original post, after 5000 hours, im not looking at my character anymore. It is merely something obstructing my view. I would rather see some weapon animations obstructing 20% of my view, than my character model obstructing 50% of my view.

Thats why I ask for a choice feature. Not everybody is in to fashion frame. Not everybody cares to see what they look like all the time. I know what i look like lol.

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1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

The original *was* just multiplayer.  The sequel does have a single player story campaign... but because EA didn't really bother to market it, not many people are aware of that.  EA, of course, seems perfectly willing to use the low sales figures to justify not producing *other* single player games.

"Gamers don't want story based games.  See how poor this one did?"

"But you didn't tell anyone it's single player or that there WAS a story!"

"Irrelevant.  It didn't sell, and that supports the narrative we're trying to push.  Now, can I interest you in spending a few thousand dollars on Ultimate Team cards for FIFA 2021?  There's only a few months until FIFA 2022 comes out and we throw the whole multiplayer mode in the bin for the new one!  Better get started now!"

Right!!??

But EA is just terrible across the board. I do play battlefront 2 from time to time but not online.... and the offline options suck.

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1 minute ago, Faulcun said:

Oh wait, let me clarify something. Ive never said simple change. I did not suggest it was a simple change or feature to implement. In fact ive spoken to the contrary in that regard. Im well aware of the design time needed to do things correctly.

The simple option I was making reference to is on the end user side with the mere choice of playing in first person view, or third, and not being forced to do one or the other.

No, I do not expect the view to change while bullet jumping. I expect the view to stay fixed while my character is flipping upside down, just like in unreal tournament. Other players would see you doing it, however you would not see yourself doing it. I do not expect to see ephemeras either. As I stated in my original post, after 5000 hours, im not looking at my character anymore. It is merely something obstructing my view. I would rather see some weapon animations obstructing 20% of my view, than my character model obstructing 50% of my view.

Thats why I ask for a choice feature. Not everybody is in to fashion frame. Not everybody cares to see what they look like all the time. I know what i look like lol.

Ah i misunderstood then. I thought you were saying you wanted it added because you thought it was a simple addition. I apologize. I see where you are coming from now.

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3 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Easy mode solution: Just don't...like, any of those things.
- ''Ok, but what does that mean?''
Well, have you aimed with any of the scoped weapons in the game (Snipers, Buzzlock, Knell, Arca Scisco)? Ya um, that...but for everything.

At minimum, I see something like this as a good starting point or proof of concept. It leans on a number of things that already exist, so there's much less overhead, but still manages to work in that direction and allow for modular improvements (arms, weapon riggings, etc.) later on if desired.

It'd also let them suss out how to better indicate certain things from a first-person perspective. Like new HUDs for using Necramechs, so you have a more clear idea you're in one (since you can't look at your character to see, yes, you are indeed piloting a big frak-off mech).

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30 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I did watch it to the end yeah. I definitely see where you're coming from but it doesn't change my position.

Basically what I'm saying is this: You said it is a simple change. I don't think it would be simple at all. The titanfall gameplay is really cool but it shows the hand model. It also has fixed head positioning which warframe doesn't have. If Warframe had fixed-view from first person it would look really weird when bullet jumping and doing other animations that spin the player model (melee has a ton of these). The frames, weapon models, and ephemeras would all further contribute to this being complicated in both development and implementation. 

DE is pretty innovative but at the same time they rarely do things in a polished/refined way. What you're asking for would necessitate refinement for it to not cause motion sickness. I simply don't think this is possible within the scope of DE's capability. 

I mean... they are working on crossplay/save so who knows... maybe they could pull it off. I seriously doubt it though. And I'm fairly certain that crossplay/save will be unbelievabley buggy when it comes. I hope it won't but I'm not holding my breath. I've been around too long and seen too many mainline bug-messes to believe it will be polished.

I think Motion sickness is very secondary concern here. People who get motion sick from games can have it triggered by something as basic as the gameplay from the original doom. Heck 6dof archwing made many many people sick and that stuck around for ages and wasn't even removed because of the motion sickness. The people that are gonna get motion sickness from first person are the people who just won't use the option.

Edited by Drasiel
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22 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I think Motion sickness is very secondary concern here. People who get motion sick from games can have it triggered by something as basic as the gameplay from the original doom. Heck 6dof archwing made many many people sick and that stuck around for ages and wasn't even removed because of the motion sickness. The people that are gonna get motion sickness from first person are the people who just won't use the option.

This is a valid point.

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47 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Oh wait, let me clarify something. Ive never said simple change. I did not suggest it was a simple change or feature to implement. In fact ive spoken to the contrary in that regard. Im well aware of the design time needed to do things correctly.

The simple option I was making reference to is on the end user side with the mere choice of playing in first person view, or third, and not being forced to do one or the other.

No, I do not expect the view to change while bullet jumping. I expect the view to stay fixed while my character is flipping upside down, just like in unreal tournament. Other players would see you doing it, however you would not see yourself doing it. I do not expect to see ephemeras either. As I stated in my original post, after 5000 hours, im not looking at my character anymore. It is merely something obstructing my view. I would rather see some weapon animations obstructing 20% of my view, than my character model obstructing 50% of my view.

Thats why I ask for a choice feature. Not everybody is in to fashion frame. Not everybody cares to see what they look like all the time. I know what i look like lol.

To add onto this, there's a perk in skyrim that lets you do sneak rolls.

In third-person, your character rolls.

While in first-person, the camera is fixed slightly, it inches down a bit then back to it's original position to give the illusion of you rolling.

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How has a discussion about First Person in Warframe gone this long without someone squealing about how the optional camera mode has already given them motions sickness just thinking about it.

For real though, this is an addition I whole-heartedly support. I even accept that DE would probably take a year and a half after introduction to get it right, if they even finish it but Conclave exclusive items still exist so we know DE isn't afraid of making completely useless content.

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