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Its time to make the case to reconsider a first person view option.


Faulcun

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I think the only real issue is gun animations because I believe DE didn't make every reload animation perfect (like clipping into our hands, weapon slipping side way, etc), they are not noticeable in 3rd person. Probably not the aiming animation too, but they can work around it by making a 1st person only aiming animation. Camera is an easy problem to solve so I wouldn't worry about it.

Another problem is the ironsight, although it can be easily avoided by not using ironsight at all (instead just a typical crosshair). They would have to modify every gun model to give them practical ironsight.

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On 2021-07-19 at 1:53 PM, Faulcun said:

As an automotive performance builder, I promise I appreciate good welds too lol.

But you are very right. In fact thinking about the weapons in the game... it could almost be said that i recognize the majority of weapons based on when they are fired by other players, and the sound they make rather than actually seeing the physical model. Honestly, other than the handful of weapons that i normally use, I probably couldnt identify 50% of them by name if shown.

Other than seeing them briefly in the arsenal, ive not paid any attention to what they look like or their animations in my hands or anybody elses. A first person view could really showcase a different appreciation for the weapons art and animations.

I was mostly trying to reinforce your point that sometimes bad design choices are made because someone wants their work to be seen, and that while I fully understand how that feels, it's still a bad choice for them to make.  I'm not particularly interested in a first person mode, I prefer TPS, but I'm always about options and I don't think it would be a bad addition.  It would also help people like you out that have better immersion in first person.

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Not sure if anyone here has played Valheim before? The game was built for 3rd person view.

Not long ago someone released a camera mod and now you can enjoy the came in first person mode. They simply removed the player's head and put the camera there, whilst other clients see the full player model.

End of the day the argument that it's too hard or time consuming to provide an adequate first person view in a 3rd person game is completely debunked (not that this is news to myself or a great many others already) just more a wave to those who have continued to speak out against it for the reason of it being technically difficult to implement.

Sooo TL:DR

  • It's easy to implement
  • People want it so why not let us have the option
  • Even in 3rd person mode I would be a rich gamer if I got paid 1 cent every time my warframe glitched through the camera.. visual fidelity is not up for question
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7 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

End of the day the argument that it's too hard or time consuming to provide an adequate first person view in a 3rd person game is completely debunked

If not by a Valheim mod then by TF2 and the Elder Scrolls games. Seriously, if a small Valve team or Bethesda the messda can do such camera adjustments to an adequate degree, so can DE in an afternoon.

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13 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Not sure if anyone here has played Valheim before? The game was built for 3rd person view.

Not long ago someone released a camera mod and now you can enjoy the came in first person mode. They simply removed the player's head and put the camera there, whilst other clients see the full player model.

End of the day the argument that it's too hard or time consuming to provide an adequate first person view in a 3rd person game is completely debunked (not that this is news to myself or a great many others already) just more a wave to those who have continued to speak out against it for the reason of it being technically difficult to implement.

Sooo TL:DR

  • It's easy to implement
  • People want it so why not let us have the option
  • Even in 3rd person mode I would be a rich gamer if I got paid 1 cent every time my warframe glitched through the camera.. visual fidelity is not up for question

This is amazing! Thank you for posting this.

Here is a review from somebody who plays. I just did a simple search on youtube.

 

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On 2021-07-24 at 3:25 AM, Marvelous_A said:

Another problem is the ironsight, although it can be easily avoided by not using ironsight at all (instead just a typical crosshair).

This is exactly how I imagine it would work, at least to start. Can just have the entire screen zoom a bit.

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On 2021-07-24 at 4:08 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm not particularly interested in a first person mode, I prefer TPS, but I'm always about options and I don't think it would be a bad addition.  It would also help people like you out that have better immersion in first person.

This too. Whatever your opinion of nightwave, I do think people generally enjoy exploring the different settings in first person and getting a different perspective of everything.

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On 2021-07-25 at 2:43 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

Not sure if anyone here has played Valheim before? The game was built for 3rd person view.

Not long ago someone released a camera mod and now you can enjoy the came in first person mode. They simply removed the player's head and put the camera there, whilst other clients see the full player model.

End of the day the argument that it's too hard or time consuming to provide an adequate first person view in a 3rd person game is completely debunked (not that this is news to myself or a great many others already) just more a wave to those who have continued to speak out against it for the reason of it being technically difficult to implement.

Sooo TL:DR

  • It's easy to implement
  • People want it so why not let us have the option
  • Even in 3rd person mode I would be a rich gamer if I got paid 1 cent every time my warframe glitched through the camera.. visual fidelity is not up for question

There's a handful of excuses used by this and other communities for the purposes of dev defense, and "It's too complex/difficult" or "It would take too much time away from other things" is always something that gets thrown out when anyone asks why something isn't being done.  

As an aside, I've played Valheim.  It's another game where I really enjoy several of the core mechanics and yet despise the overall experience because of how pointlessly grindy they made it.  Neat that they made a mod for it though.  Must be nice to have a game where you can mod in the QOL you're looking for instead of fruitlessly begging the devs for it for nearly a decade.

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On 2021-07-26 at 7:25 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's a handful of excuses used by this and other communities for the purposes of dev defense, and "It's too complex/difficult" or "It would take too much time away from other things" is always something that gets thrown out when anyone asks why something isn't being done.  

As an aside, I've played Valheim.  It's another game where I really enjoy several of the core mechanics and yet despise the overall experience because of how pointlessly grindy they made it.  Neat that they made a mod for it though.  Must be nice to have a game where you can mod in the QOL you're looking for instead of fruitlessly begging the devs for it for nearly a decade.

Yeah Valheim certainly is a fun game to play, the grind has a strange tipping point where it's, grind grind grind then suddenly you get so strong, if you haven't got some construction projects in the work you can get bored pretty quickly.

Dev Defence 100% is the reason why threads like this are shut down, and yep been begging for this for nearly a decade now and over the years each excuse is eventually debunked as other games come out and overcome the challenges said to be "too difficult", "projectile vomit inducing", etc.

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So I read through your post OP.

I was looking for justification for this.  Instead you told me justification as to why it might be possible, not why it should happen.

I don't see a good reason for it to happen.

Firstly, if you're playing the game right, you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense, even in third person, navigation is still somewhat of a nightmare at the speed of the game...

I for one, would never use this, think it's a giant waste of developer time, and see no good reasons on the table you've provided... only that it's theoretically possible.  Just because something is possible and someone on the internet thinks it's a good idea does not make it a good idea.

Try again.  Sell me why this needs to happen for the game.  I'm open to it, but right now I'm entirely unconvinced that this should at all ever be a thing, and I'm also not very confident in your ability to sell an idea.

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44 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Firstly, if you're playing the game right, you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense, even in third person, navigation is still somewhat of a nightmare at the speed of the game...

Thats a YOU problem, not a ME problem. I enjoy fast paced gaming, even at levels that you deem unreasonable for yourself.

 

49 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I for one, would never use this, think it's a giant waste of developer time, and see no good reasons on the table you've provided... only that it's theoretically possible.  Just because something is possible and someone on the internet thinks it's a good idea does not make it a good idea.

Try again.  Sell me why this needs to happen for the game.  I'm open to it, but right now I'm entirely unconvinced that this should at all ever be a thing, and I'm also not very confident in your ability to sell an idea.

There is 4 pages here of others and myself explaining why we want this, and proving that it can be done. But Ill shorten it up:

  • Third person view detaches us from the game, environment, and interaction. First person view increases our immersion to a more personal level. This is what we desire.
  • After having played this game for almost a decade, and 5000 hours, myself and others are bored with the same old thing, and want to experience this game in a different way.
  • We know of people who refuse to play this game at all simply because it is not first person view. Now that Warframe is expanding to mobile devices, I think one of the few other ways to reach new players is to consider changing some things for reasons they may not want to play in the first place; first person view being an easy place to start. New players = new income generation for warframe.
  • People have been asking for first person view for 8+ years. There is a new thread on this every other month.
  • It does not affect the way YOU play the game. Its a simple personal choice to use it in the first place.
  • After the success DE has had with this game so far, notably increasing the size of their development team as they have progressed, they clearly have the manpower to do this without taking attention away from major projects.

The most important out of all of that is we want a deeper connection and engagement with the environment in warframe. End of the day, thats what its about. The happier players are, the more they play, the more friends they tell about it, the more players come back.

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On 2021-07-28 at 4:55 AM, Faulcun said:

Thats a YOU problem, not a ME problem. I enjoy fast paced gaming, even at levels that you deem unreasonable for yourself.

 

There is 4 pages here of others and myself explaining why we want this, and proving that it can be done. But Ill shorten it up:

  • Third person view detaches us from the game, environment, and interaction. First person view increases our immersion to a more personal level. This is what we desire.
  • After having played this game for almost a decade, and 5000 hours, myself and others are bored with the same old thing, and want to experience this game in a different way.
  • We know of people who refuse to play this game at all simply because it is not first person view. Now that Warframe is expanding to mobile devices, I think one of the few other ways to reach new players is to consider changing some things for reasons they may not want to play in the first place; first person view being an easy place to start. New players = new income generation for warframe.
  • People have been asking for first person view for 8+ years. There is a new thread on this every other month.
  • It does not affect the way YOU play the game. Its a simple personal choice to use it in the first place.
  • After the success DE has had with this game so far, notably increasing the size of their development team as they have progressed, they clearly have the manpower to do this without taking attention away from major projects.

The most important out of all of that is we want a deeper connection and engagement with the environment in warframe. End of the day, thats what its about. The happier players are, the more they play, the more friends they tell about it, the more players come back.

#1, it's not a me problem.  I can handle a max speed volt, wisp, titania guass through even difficult tiles.  Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm an idiot and I'd appreciate more respect if you're gonna bother to engage, i didn't attack you, I asked you to make your case because you didn't.  I also responded to the thread OP, not the entire thread, and I don't need to read the entire thread to do that nor should that be an expectation of participation. 

The fact is, traversal in 1p going to be more messy, not less that way, that's a fact you cannot dispute, because less camera range, means more out of sight and more for you to get stuck on.  It's an inherent downgrade no matter who the player is.  Just because you think you can handle it doesn't make it better for the vast majority of users or a good use of developer time.

*Third person view detaches us from the game, environment, and interaction. First person view increases our immersion to a more personal level. This is what we desire.*
This is an opinion that others are likely to contrast to.  I accept what you say is true for you, but you must understand not everyone is going to agree to your subjective whims.  As such, this isn't a reason the thing should be added to the game other than "I feel like it" which is a fine thing, but 20 people on the internet posting in a game with over a million registered losers isn't something devs should spend 100's if not 1000s of hours on.

*After having played this game for almost a decade, and 5000 hours, myself and others are bored with the same old thing, and want to experience this game in a different way.*  
Same again.  Also 5k hours in my book isn't impressive, not just because numbers don't impress me, but I have way more than that as well, please slow your roll, this is not how to make a point.

*We know of people who refuse to play this game at all simply because it is not first person view. Now that Warframe is expanding to mobile devices, I think one of the few other ways to reach new players is to consider changing some things for reasons they may not want to play in the first place; first person view being an easy place to start. New players = new income generation for warframe.*

This is your first good reason to add it.  However, it's on you to prove that there are more than 100 random personal friends of yourse out there to budget this.  I don't know that this is the case.  I'm sure, as with anything you can get a few hundred to sign any petition online that stand for any given thing.  Is this something that is keeping 1000s or 10s of 1000s of players from playing the game?  I'm skeptical on that.  I've literally never heard of anyone not playing warframe for this specific reason that was into action/RPG lite stuff... people certainly have preferences, but gamers will generally play whatever they are in the mood for, and very few are so picky as to only like 1 thing, and chances are that's some kind of developmental shortcoming like saying "I only listen to black metal, if it's not black metal it sucks".  Well black metal is pretty good friend, so is first person perspective, but it's not the only good thing out there.

*People have been asking for first person view for 8+ years. There is a new thread on this every other month.*

Highly skeptical and dubious...  I did a search.  This isn't even true for this year based on thread titles, and many of the posts I went back further is the same circle of folks that keep making the same threads.  I'm gonna call this BS or in the very least, misleading hyperbole.

*It does not affect the way YOU play the game. Its a simple personal choice to use it in the first place.*

Actually it very much does affect the way I play the game, not because of whether or not I use it, but what content the devs are working on each cycle is affected by how they budget their dollars and manpower.  This is made worse by DE being notorious and highly reputed for their content draughts and slow as dead molasses going uphill in the winter production cycles.  By advocating for this I'd have to sacrifice other things I potentially might want to see in games more.   I will admit I wouldn't be mad about it being in the game, but I would be mad if it came before other things I think are much more important as of this point in your argument. 

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1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

After the success DE has had with this game so far, notably increasing the size of their development team as they have progressed, they clearly have the manpower to do this without taking attention away from major projects.

This statement is wrong (because I don't use the word, fallacious, in normal speech). You need a reality check. Please consider this quote from End-of-nightwave-intermission-3 thread:

On 2021-07-17 at 12:51 PM, [DE]Dudley said:

As we mentioned in our previous post: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1247630-nightwave-intermission-iii-is-now-live/, we shifted our focus from Nightwave to develop The New War and beyond in Warframe.

Does that sound like DE has ample person-power to operate multiple projects? I want many things from DE, but empty promises and unreasonable expectations are not among them.

Try spinning plates for a hobby. Then you can tell all of us how easy it really is. 

How easy some people think DE's job is:

Spoiler

spin dab GIF

How easy some, more practical, people think DE's job is:

Spoiler

ujo3Vnh.gif

How not-easy some people realize the game industry is:

Spoiler

HOC3J4N.gif

How crazy it gets when DE tries to make players happy:

Spoiler

oNSyUPk.gif

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DE could do it. Other development companies have games that do it, and some do it really well.

But it boils down to development time into rigging the perspective and finer animations in first person. I don't see them ever wanting to do this, and I don't think the demand is large enough either.

I know I enjoy seeing my fashion frame in 3rd person and feel like I have a better view on the playing field.

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Ok , here we go.

First, @Klokwerkaos and @LillyRaccune I suggest you watch this documentary so you understand what DE's mission is, their history, and the real struggle that i am not, nor have I ever suggested does not exist for them. I will be referencing this heavily.

Spoiler

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

#1, it's not a me problem.  I can handle a max speed volt, wisp, titania guass through even difficult tiles.  Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm an idiot and I'd appreciate more respect if you're gonna bother to engage, i didn't attack you, I asked you to make your case because you didn't.  I also responded to the thread OP, not the entire thread, and I don't read the entire thread to do that nor should that be an expectation of participation. 

I didnt attack you, and no offense was intended. Perhaps in not so many words, I was pointing out that you were speaking from a position of opinion as if it were the gospel truth. Your very first statement to your argument started with " if you're playing the game right". Well, according to who, exactly? Who is to say how I play, or anybody else for that matter is right or wrong?

You cant speak to that, nor anybody else, which also deflates the second half of your leading statement "you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense". Again, according to who? The ONLY person you can definitively speak for in that regard is you. Which is why I said, its a YOU problem.

7 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I for one, would never use this, think it's a giant waste of developer time, and see no good reasons on the table you've provided... only that it's theoretically possible.  Just because something is possible and someone on the internet thinks it's a good idea does not make it a good idea.

You then proceeded to use your first statements of projected opinion to qualify your direct opinion, followed by empty rhetoric. One could easily make the statement "just because someone on the internet thinks its a bad idea does not make it a bad idea." with as equal weight as your original.

The obvious answer here is, there is no wrong way to play, or enjoy the game. Ill be the first person to admit when ive made a mistake, but i believe stemming from this basic principle, ive been speaking here from how I perceive the game, and for those who share my own opinions on this matter as a minority voice in this topic. How you view the game, or how I view the game, or anybody else, is nothing more than a matter of different experiences.

From that perspective, we can share our experiences in the hopes of allowing others to understand how we came to our opinions in the first place.

With that being said, I didnt start this thread to only have a conversation with you alone. I do not believe it is realistic to have my entire point of view expressed entirely in the first post. The point of forums, and the point of this thread is to have a discussion about the subject at hand. People will make points, and counter points. It is through discussion that we can come to an understanding regardless if we agree or not.

Therefore, I feel its extremely disrespectful to jump into a thread, and demand that I engage with you and rehash this entire thread just for you as if your point hasnt already been made by somebody else, all because you cant be bothered to read the discussion that is merely 4 pages in the making. Now, if it were 400 pages long? Then yeah, you make your opinion known for people reading who matter (IE: DE) without the expectation of engagement. Thats not what you did here.

Moving on.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

The fact is, traversal in 1p going to be more messy, not less that way, that's a fact you cannot dispute, because less camera range, means more out of sight and more for you to get stuck on.  It's an inherent downgrade no matter who the player is.  Just because you think you can handle it doesn't make it better for the vast majority of users or a good use of developer time.

 

On 2021-07-20 at 2:57 PM, Dreddgrave said:

Give.

Me.

The.

Mess.

I will dispute. Messy or not, some players are willing to trade some things for what they perceive to be a more genuine experience, as quoted above from page 3. This genuine experience is the most important thing keeping players coming back, which is what DE is most concerned with.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

*Third person view detaches us from the game, environment, and interaction. First person view increases our immersion to a more personal level. This is what we desire.*
This is an opinion that others are likely to contrast to.  I accept what you say is true for you, but you must understand not everyone is going to agree to your subjective whims.  As such, this isn't a reason the thing should be added to the game other than "I feel like it" which is a fine thing, but 20 people on the internet posting in a game with over a million registered losers isn't something devs should spend 100's if not 1000s of hours on.

Again, im speaking for myself, and the perceived minority of people (although this thread has had more positive support than negative from those engaging with it) who have expressed the same desire, some of which can been seen in this very thread.

Also, since you are calling me out for evidence, I would just like to point out

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

From the above link, you can see that Warframe in steam reached an all time peak of 181,509 users online at any given moment. Ever. Which also happens to be this years tennocon that that happened.

The average over the last two years, per month, fluctuate from 35,000-50,000 players at any given time.

Now I understand this is just steam, and doesnt include pc users not using steam. I would like to argue that PC probably has the majority online over compared console numbers. But I cant prove that. So, to be fair, lets just use these numbers for each platform.

Really I think peak numbers are the most interesting. Lets go overboard and consider all time peak players as average monthly for each platform. Thats 726,036 players online at any given time across all platforms. Hell, maybe we forgot some people. Lets really inflate it and bump it up to a cool 1mil just to make sure we got everybody. Reality is... the numbers are actually far less, right?

According to this site:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/warframe/warframe-player-count

As of March, 2019, warframe had 50 million registered users across all platforms, not 1 million. Im sure we can both agree that number should have risen since 2019, but we can work with 2019 numbers either way because i have no idea what the new count is in July, 2021.

I can show my work here, but the answer is.... reliable 2% player retention. And thats with our GENEROUS number inflation.

If you watched the documentary as I suggested, you should agree that the name of the game.... is player retention. Again, as ive said in other posts in this thread, I feel it would be foolish at this point to dismiss or not even consider a feature that has been requested since 2013.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

*After having played this game for almost a decade, and 5000 hours, myself and others are bored with the same old thing, and want to experience this game in a different way.*  
Same again.  Also 5k hours in my book isn't impressive, not just because numbers don't impress me, but I have way more than that as well, please slow your roll, this is not how to make a point.

This is exactly how to make a point, maybe not to you, but to DE. In the documentary part 2, Rebecca spelled it out perfectly, making my statement immensely powerful and i didnt even know it. She speaks very detailed about players being bored. The fact of the matter is, im a veteran player, speaking for a minority opinion group, who has expressed bordem,  and also expressed the passion of experiencing this game in a different way, and then expressed what that way is... is exactly what DE needs to see and hear from other players.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

*We know of people who refuse to play this game at all simply because it is not first person view. Now that Warframe is expanding to mobile devices, I think one of the few other ways to reach new players is to consider changing some things for reasons they may not want to play in the first place; first person view being an easy place to start. New players = new income generation for warframe.*

This is your first good reason to add it.  However, it's on you to prove that there are more than 100 random personal friends of yourse out there to budget this.  I don't know that this is the case.  I'm sure, as with anything you can get a few hundred to sign any petition online that stand for any given thing.  Is this something that is keeping 1000s or 10s of 1000s of players from playing the game?  I'm skeptical on that.  I've literally never heard of anyone not playing warframe for this specific reason that was into action/RPG lite stuff... people certainly have preferences, but gamers will generally play whatever they are in the mood for, and very few are so picky as to only like 1 thing, and chances are that's some kind of developmental shortcoming like saying "I only listen to black metal, if it's not black metal it sucks".  Well black metal is pretty good friend, so is first person perspective, but it's not the only good thing out there.

Never said 100. I specifically stated a dozen. You can call them all personal friends. Either way, some are in our clan. We are a multi gaming clan so not everybody plays the same games. Some of them are not in my clan, and are real life friends. Either way, you are welcome to come on discord and chat with some of them if you are that interested. I assure you, its a real thing. Some of them prefer to play destiny specifically because of this. And even though content releases are non-existent for that game, they still refuse to play warframe because of third person.  All I can do is share my personal experience with these people.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

*People have been asking for first person view for 8+ years. There is a new thread on this every other month.*

Highly skeptical and dubious...  I did a search.  This isn't even true for this year based on thread titles, and many of the posts I went back further is the same circle of folks that keep making the same threads.  I'm gonna call this BS or in the very least, misleading hyperbole.

Honestly, Ive been working on this response for hours... and i really dont feel like making a list of threads from all the way back to 2013. I dont know for a fact if there is a new thread every other month. I know somebody else responded in this thread with a link to their thread they started about this topic just recently. I know ive been around since august 2013, and ive seen many, many..... many threads about this very subject over the years. Can we just agree that this has been a requested feature since 2013?

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Actually it very much does affect the way I play the game, not because of whether or not I use it, but what content the devs are working on each cycle is affected by how they budget their dollars and manpower.  This is made worse by DE being notorious and highly reputed for their content draughts and slow as dead molasses going uphill in the winter production cycles.  By advocating for this I'd have to sacrifice other things I potentially might want to see in games more.   I will admit I wouldn't be mad about it being in the game, but I would be mad if it came before other things I think are much more important as of this point in your argument. 

*After the success DE has had with this game so far, notably increasing the size of their development team as they have progressed, they clearly have the manpower to do this without taking attention away from major projects.*


BAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!  You're pulling my leg right?  OOF, I do hope you're not serious about this.  They've had 1 passable release that wasn't a garbage fire in years and you're gonna say, without actually knowing how the team is managed behind closed doors, that you can speak to the competency of managing this while stuff is still bugged and broken that has been for years that costs REAL MONEY, not just plat...

 

4 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Does that sound like DE has ample person-power to operate multiple projects? I want many things from DE, but empty promises and unreasonable expectations are not among them.

Im addressing both quotes here.

When DE first launched a demo of warframe, they had a studio of ~250 people, but only around a dozen actually worked on the demo. The studio at the time stayed alive by contracting work for other games while a very small team focused on warframe. They had 1 year to make a sustainable product.

One major milestone was the launching of warframe on steam. This exposure was what enabled warframe to sustain the entire studio, and not just the tiny team working on warframe. In Oct 2014, DE was majority bought out for $74mil. This allowed for the entire studio to expand and gradually start focusing on warframe solely.

In the documentary, DE expressed that they are well aware of what it takes to keep players here. Most importantly new content. They also understand that they have to both fix their content, and create new content at the same time.

As Ive shown earlier, the name of the game is player retention. While my numbers are rudimentary at best, we can safely assume DE is constantly crunching the numbers. As of right now, they have 300+ employees focused on only warframe. They do not do any contract work anymore.

Quoting Scott from the documentary:

Quote

Our philosiphy is: the community latches on to certain things for a certain reason. Instead of smacking their hand and saying "no, thats not my vision", we say "how can we embrace that, and how can we bring that into the game" and not just remove that outright. For the core gameplay, I think its been an evolution of things that the community has wanted, things that we wanted, and the marrying of those two things.

We can say for sure, this topic is recurring. As such, my argument in 2021 is that it deserves consideration at the very least.

Currently DE is working on two major projects that we know of, according to tennocon. Crossplay, and the new war.

So yes, I do believe DE has the manpower to implement this feature without breaking their efforts on major content. I also believe ability, or inability to release unbroken content really has no factor here.

If you guys would read through the rest of the thread, you would see that nobody is asking for this full on perfect version of this mode right away. We are simply asking for a starting point, and to even be worked on passively.

I believe what we are asking for falls in line of their mission statement. I believe what we are asking for could potentially tap into a new playerbase, however small it may be. We dont actually know for sure. Even if it only brought back old players for a new experience, it would be foolish not to consider.

I encourage you to read the rest of the thread.

And Ill quote myself now:

6 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The most important out of all of that is we want a deeper connection and engagement with the environment in warframe. End of the day, thats what its about. The happier players are, the more they play, the more friends they tell about it, the more players come back.

 

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5 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

You cant speak to that, nor anybody else, which also deflates the second half of your leading statement "you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense". Again, according to who? The ONLY person you can definitively speak for in that regard is you. Which is why I said, its a YOU problem.

I can't speak for others directly, I can however speak to my experience.  My experiences have shown that this will be problematic for many players... but to your credit, only if they choose to use it as a feature.

8 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

As of March, 2019, warframe had 50 million registered users across all platforms, not 1 million.

The one million registered losers isn't an exact figure, it's a faux pas popularized by rebecca many warframe players will recognize.  I'm not sure why you didn't recognize that, but it's more of a euphemism.

10 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

If you watched the documentary as I suggested, you should agree that the name of the game.... is player retention.

You don't need to watch the documentary (which I already did before you posted) to know that player retention is a problem in all games, warframe in particular.  You just need to be around for a good minute.  I think where i would disagree here is that 1st person isn't the most important step in player retention.  I'd also like to point out that one of the reasons mobility works in Destiny, since you mentioned it, is because it specifically doesn't have all the crap/ledges to get caught on that the devs specifically implant to trip up players in 3rd pp.  If it did it would be far less manageable, which is exactly what i was stating.  I appreciate that you want this.  What i'm saying is that it's not of a direct benefit to the gameplay and that such an argument is moot.

13 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Can we just agree that this has been a requested feature since 2013?

Sure, I'm certain someone asked in 2013 without needing to verify, because it's a likeable enough feature in many games that this seems likely, but do you understand how this is portraying your argument very differently (and I'd argue, better) than using misleading hyperbole?  I hope so.
 

16 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Therefore, I feel its extremely disrespectful to jump into a thread, and demand that I engage with you

The demand is one you are well within rights to refuse, and I use the word demand very loosely (you aren't being put upon and held captive without consent), I understood that perfectly from the beginning.  You can choose to make your case or not.  The thing is, I was open to the concept, but needed convincing.  As the OP, it's kinda your job to win people over to your point of view in a circumstance like this, or not, but if you don't, your idea won't gain traction.   I did see a promise to explain why something was necessary in the title, and instead got why it was possible, these are very different things.
 

19 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

While my numbers are rudimentary at best, we can safely assume DE is constantly crunching the numbers. As of right now, they have 300+ employees focused on only warframe. They do not do any contract work anymore.

Which is very much not a lot for a franchise of this size and why their releases have been drowning in bugs the last several years.  Personally i don't believe first person is the way to make the game more accessible.

A vast majority of people don't stick with the game for 3 reasons:

1) it's too complicated from the start, they aren't willing to invest the time to learn it, so they bounce.  These players simply aren't interested in this game and nothing short of a full redesign is going to do it for them, they are not the target audience.
2) They get frustrated early not understanding how to make plat and think that the only way to advance is to buy your way forward.  This is admittedly a serious problem DE doesn't do enough to combat.  Yes, they have the slogan of "ninjas play free" but that hasn't conveyed the idea of how unnecessary money investment is in the game.  To their credit though, explaining that money shouldn't be purchased because it can be earned in game is a great way to cut your profits.  That said, players that leave at this stage in many cases won't be paying to keep the lights on anyway, they would just learn to be free to play players exclusively in most cases and if they did monetize it would likely wouldn't covert nearly any to whale status, at best they might drop 50 bucks a year on a plat coupon.
3) old members that are bored.  Arguably this is the most important group that DE needs to work to retain and is also especially terrible at doing so.  These are players that have spent money in many cases, some in very large quantities, but their boredom makes them quite for periods of time or permanently.

In a recent thread I put forth a plan on precisely how to fix #3 and frankly First person perspective had absolutely nothing to do with it (it was specifically about content flow), and more over, DE currently doesn't have the manpower to achieve that plan as evidenced by their track record to date.

I'd also add, DE Pablo specifically said at tennocon (paraphrased) they can't take workers away from New War to work on reworks of frames that have needed them for years... so I'm not sure where you think that magical manpower is going to come from.

28 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Our philosiphy is: the community latches on to certain things for a certain reason. Instead of smacking their hand and saying "no, thats not my vision", we say "how can we embrace that, and how can we bring that into the game" and not just remove that outright. For the core gameplay, I think its been an evolution of things that the community has wanted, things that we wanted, and the marrying of those two things.

I personally hate this quote from scott.  Was it true that one time where they worked in mobility into being better in the game?  Sure.  I even believed this idea genuinely guided them for a few years. 

But what about all the other times they completely did the opposite of what players wanted en masse that dwarf that single example into irrelevance?  At best their track record on this is spotty, realistically this quote isn't worth the pixels to represent it and consider that quote nothing more than the same old marketing corpo speak they've been spewing on their monthly commercials, er uh, dev streams...  Call me cynical if you like but I have a mountain of evidence that shows that this once case pales in comparison to the mountains of times they have not only failed to live up to that ideal, but directly worked in opposition to it.

32 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

The most important out of all of that is we want a deeper connection and engagement with the environment in warframe. End of the day, thats what its about. The happier players are, the more they play, the more friends they tell about it, the more players come back.

Again the onus is on you to prove that this is the case for enough people to make it worth it to devote the man hours and budget as a priority.  I actually hope for you this is implemented in the game at some point, like I said I'm not against it... I'm against it happening before the mountain of other far more important things that already exist on the to do list.  This falls somewhere at the bottom of the pile of priorities as I see it, not just being about what I want personally, but in terms of the impact it would have on the game at large.
 

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7 hours ago, Deminisis said:

DE could do it. Other development companies have games that do it, and some do it really well.

But it boils down to development time into rigging the perspective and finer animations in first person. I don't see them ever wanting to do this, and I don't think the demand is large enough either.

So all in all, it boils down to something they don't actually have to do to implement a basic, experimental first person mode. Again, as previously said in this thread, see the TF2 VR implementation.

As seen from the bopping light at the 3 minute mark, basically all they did was put camera vaguely in face, not even fully attached to it. Maybe remove head client-side, at most. Bam boom done.

Reminder: Me and many others in this thread are only asking for a basic, experimental first person mode. DE have implemented off-the-road jank like Happy Zephyr, so they can definitely implement simpler off-the-road jank like a first person mode.

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5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You don't need to watch the documentary (which I already did before you posted) to know that player retention is a problem in all games, warframe in particular.  You just need to be around for a good minute.  I think where i would disagree here is that 1st person isn't the most important step in player retention.  I'd also like to point out that one of the reasons mobility works in Destiny, since you mentioned it, is because it specifically doesn't have all the crap/ledges to get caught on that the devs specifically implant to trip up players in 3rd pp.  If it did it would be far less manageable, which is exactly what i was stating.  I appreciate that you want this.  What i'm saying is that it's not of a direct benefit to the gameplay and that such an argument is moot.

Warframe in particular, player retention is more detrimental than any other game simply due to the nature of a free to play business model. Let me clarify though, that I have not suggested that first person view is the most important thing to fix it. Far from it, actually.

However that doesnt mean its not something to be considered. Especially when what we're asking for can be implemented as an experimental starting point that can be tried by players and provide feedback for passive development. Any avenue is worth considering if it means engaging or reengaging with your playerbase, especially when talking about something that lays on the simpler side of implementation.

I cant speak to getting stuck on stuff. Its extremely rare for me to experience that regardless of view perspective. I strongly believe this is more of a player issue and not a perceived view issue.

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You can choose to make your case or not.  The thing is, I was open to the concept, but needed convincing.  As the OP, it's kinda your job to win people over to your point of view in a circumstance like this, or not, but if you don't, your idea won't gain traction. 

Ive been engaging in this thread, along with other people. Videos have been posted, ideas have been shared, points, counter points, counter counter points, etc etc. This is healthy conversation. What is not, is having to rehash the entire discussion for one person who refuses to read it. From an outside reader, it can appear to be going in circles and is a quick way to get a thread shut down with the excuse of "its run its course".

Im sorry you are late to the party here, but if you want to engage or have a discussion, you should read through the topic especially while the pages are minimal, and contribute accordingly.

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

A vast majority of people don't stick with the game for 3 reasons:

1) it's too complicated from the start, they aren't willing to invest the time to learn it, so they bounce.  These players simply aren't interested in this game and nothing short of a full redesign is going to do it for them, they are not the target audience.
2) They get frustrated early not understanding how to make plat and think that the only way to advance is to buy your way forward.  This is admittedly a serious problem DE doesn't do enough to combat.  Yes, they have the slogan of "ninjas play free" but that hasn't conveyed the idea of how unnecessary money investment is in the game.  To their credit though, explaining that money shouldn't be purchased because it can be earned in game is a great way to cut your profits.  That said, players that leave at this stage in many cases won't be paying to keep the lights on anyway, they would just learn to be free to play players exclusively in most cases and if they did monetize it would likely wouldn't covert nearly any to whale status, at best they might drop 50 bucks a year on a plat coupon.
3) old members that are bored.  Arguably this is the most important group that DE needs to work to retain and is also especially terrible at doing so.  These are players that have spent money in many cases, some in very large quantities, but their boredom makes them quite for periods of time or permanently.

All of this is conjecture, from both of us really. Though it is reasonable to assume some truth in these statements as ive witnessed others expressing these very things over the years.

However, I think a much larger issue now, is the massive size of content. For 8 years DE's plan has been to pump out content to retain players. Well now we have this massive game with so much content, its overwhelming for new and returning players. The very thing that keeps them alive is the very thing im hearing lately about players reluctant to return.

I suggest a simple concept of a change of view perspective might be something some would consider returning to try, making use of the massive amount of content there is to explore.

6 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I personally hate this quote from scott.  Was it true that one time where they worked in mobility into being better in the game?  Sure.  I even believed this idea genuinely guided them for a few years. 

But what about all the other times they completely did the opposite of what players wanted en masse that dwarf that single example into irrelevance?  At best their track record on this is spotty, realistically this quote isn't worth the pixels to represent it and consider that quote nothing more than the same old marketing corpo speak they've been spewing on their monthly commercials, er uh, dev streams...  Call me cynical if you like but I have a mountain of evidence that shows that this once case pales in comparison to the mountains of times they have not only failed to live up to that ideal, but directly worked in opposition to it.

I agree 100%. But its still in the best interest of my argument to quote DE directly, as the ultimate minds i need to convince is theirs. Of course, this whole thread will probably be ignored in the end, but what can you do? Ill stick to it for what its worth. In the end, im not the one making millions of dollars.

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5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I cant speak to getting stuck on stuff. Its extremely rare for me to experience that regardless of view perspective. I strongly believe this is more of a player issue and not a perceived view issue.

I mean, I'm not saying that you're wrong about player skill, but even with high skill, as an experienced player you MUST know, that there will still be times we're you'll still end up having to use unstuck even with a high skill level, or get booted back to the beginning of a level or thrown out of the map entirely (this is especially true when you do utilize speed/mobility frames).  These are known issues now with the current perspective, and adding 1st person isn't likely to help these issues.  At a minimum these things should be fixed for the most part and not be a common bug before experimentation begins imho.

5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

However, I think a much larger issue now, is the massive size of content. For 8 years DE's plan has been to pump out content to retain players. Well now we have this massive game with so much content, its overwhelming for new and returning players. The very thing that keeps them alive is the very thing im hearing lately about players reluctant to return.

This is more of a DE philosophy problem.  They refuse to gate off content from brand new players for the most part, and that's part of their own downfall.  IE, one of the greatest strengths of the game is you can play however you want... one of the greatest weaknesses is you can play however you want-- so new players are gobsmacked and have no clue what they should be doing without outside direction.

If DE gated some content away from new players I honestly think it would do a world of good.  Example... had a new clan member go farm themselves a bramma the other day, they though it would be cool.  They also didn't have an archwing or railjack at MR 6.  I had to explain to them they weren't even going to be able to get it for some time and when I described the process they were pissed... why?  Because that's a crap ton of work... frankly they shouldn't have been allowed to get the darn lich in the first place to get an MR 14 or 16 weapon at MR 6... it's just not something they should be focusing on.
 

5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I agree 100%. But its still in the best interest of my argument to quote DE directly,

I admire that approach honestly.  :D  If there's one thing I have learned it's that they believe their own corpo speak, which while infuriating is a tactic to help make an argument.

This still isnt' a priority to me, I would argue the content drip is more important, but like I said it's a thing that's worth doing at some point for sure imho, I just think there's more important stuff.
 

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45 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I mean, I'm not saying that you're wrong about player skill, but even with high skill, as an experienced player you MUST know, that there will still be times we're you'll still end up having to use unstuck even with a high skill level, or get booted back to the beginning of a level or thrown out of the map entirely (this is especially true when you do utilize speed/mobility frames).  These are known issues now with the current perspective, and adding 1st person isn't likely to help these issues.  At a minimum these things should be fixed for the most part and not be a common bug before experimentation begins imho.

Oh I agree to an extent. But bumping into something, and getting thrown out of the map are two totally different things. The first being a player issue, the second being a DE issue lol. I honestly dont believe our perspective view changes the way our meshes and models interact with the physical environment.

Even so, honestly i could probably count less than 10 times ive had to use the unstuck command since it was a thing. Its extremely rare that i have to use it. However, I know other people who have to use it all the time. This leads me to believe it might be more play style oriented that these interactions even occur.

50 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

This is more of a DE philosophy problem.  They refuse to gate off content from brand new players for the most part, and that's part of their own downfall.  IE, one of the greatest strengths of the game is you can play however you want... one of the greatest weaknesses is you can play however you want-- so new players are gobsmacked and have no clue what they should be doing without outside direction.

If DE gated some content away from new players I honestly think it would do a world of good.  Example... had a new clan member go farm themselves a bramma the other day, they though it would be cool.  They also didn't have an archwing or railjack at MR 6.  I had to explain to them they weren't even going to be able to get it for some time and when I described the process they were pissed... why?  Because that's a crap ton of work... frankly they shouldn't have been allowed to get the darn lich in the first place to get an MR 14 or 16 weapon at MR 6... it's just not something they should be focusing on.

On this, we can agree 100%

51 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I admire that approach honestly.  :D  If there's one thing I have learned it's that they believe their own corpo speak, which while infuriating is a tactic to help make an argument.

This still isnt' a priority to me, I would argue the content drip is more important, but like I said it's a thing that's worth doing at some point for sure imho, I just think there's more important stuff.

And now we've reached an understanding :) We may not agree completely all the time, but we agree that it is worth doing at some point in some capacity. And thats common ground!

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On 2021-07-28 at 4:40 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense

 

On 2021-07-28 at 4:40 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

I for one, would never use this, think it's a giant waste of developer time

So original.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2021-07-28 at 12:40 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

So I read through your post OP.

I was looking for justification for this.  Instead you told me justification as to why it might be possible, not why it should happen.

I don't see a good reason for it to happen.

Firstly, if you're playing the game right, you're zipping around way too fast for 1st person to ever make sense, even in third person, navigation is still somewhat of a nightmare at the speed of the game...

I for one, would never use this, think it's a giant waste of developer time, and see no good reasons on the table you've provided... only that it's theoretically possible.  Just because something is possible and someone on the internet thinks it's a good idea does not make it a good idea.

Try again.  Sell me why this needs to happen for the game.  I'm open to it, but right now I'm entirely unconvinced that this should at all ever be a thing, and I'm also not very confident in your ability to sell an idea.

Selling on why it needs to happen vs if it can happen will be a much easier task :)

I would put it something like this, driving vehicles in GTA 5 in 3rd person is fun, easy to do and in general how a lot of people prefer to experience the game. Driving in first person turns even the most basic (possibly boring) activity of driving down a street into some adrenaline pumping action. This is especially true when riding bikes zipping between traffic.

For me personally, I find the pace in warframe a bit slow even when I'm zipping around using void dash everywhere. I can speed run a capture in under a minute cracking open a relic and the pace is just starting to get good. Imagine the adrenaline boost you could get playing this beast of a game in first person mode?

Ok Ok so let's say you aren't an adrenaline / action seeker, First Person has got you covered if you just want to take in the world without a giant avatar blocking ~50% of your screen (example below)
Warframe-screen-blocking-example.png

 

Perhaps you don't care if you can't see where you're going or experiencing the detailed artistic texture and model work up closer. It's also possible that you aren't interested in being closer to the action and getting that adrenaline rush. There's always the chance that you are someone who enjoys marksmanship. Right now we have first person on sniper rifles.. imagine being able to aim down sights on all weapons, not just snipers, playing a mission where you work cover could become far more tactical than can be experienced with 3rd persons where you can see around the corner without having to peep or rely on audio to know if it's safe to proceed.

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  • 2 months later...

I mean look at the facts here. 

When GTA V first implemented FPV as an update this game blew up so hard again. Plus rockstar made some good profit with the update. 

Although it's not easy to make a good FPV camera because every weapon, every stance, every movement needs an animation file. It's super simple to just attach the camera to the head and adjust some X, Y, Z values but it's going to look extremely choppy and I don't think digital extremes are looking to do anything choppy. 

 

Read basically most of this and one of the discussions are bullet jumping. There's been many titles that implemented some sort of special jumping and still unlocking the camera from third to first. Again ask j mentioned above everything needs an animation to process, and bullet jumping in FPV can be super simple. Just don't rotate the camera when you spin. Have more of a dash speed effect. It's not that hard people. 

 

Now back to the topic, it's almost 2022 and WF could use something pretty cool feature like this and the possibilities are endless. Not gonna lie, FPV showing your visor helmet and all. That would look sick. 

 

I feel like Digital Extremes would see a significant player bump if they add this feature which equals more revenue. But at the same time it will take a lot of work to implement professionally.  Also, why is everyone whining about this who are opposed to FPV. DE can simply make a toggle switch and leave TPV alone. 

 

If you want my opinion, I've always wanted this feature added. I like immersion in games especially when you can experience it first hand. 

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