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I disagree with [DE]Pablo on something, and other general thoughts I've had kicking around.


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During the Q&A in the dev panel, Pablo said he would much rather work on new content rather than fix old stuff, and as such no additional Warframe reworks are pending. I can understand wanting to add things to the game, and yes, please, give us more. But there are a lot of things that really do need to be addressed, and I hate the idea of have 47 Warframes with at least half of them having either a wasted ability or just a really weak kit. Don't get me wrong, there are almost no frames that I would say are broken to the point of needed a total overhaul, and the community definitely tends to be very shortsighted with new releases (Yareli's being dragged through the mud right now, but I'm confident she's going to get some bumps in power). There are also some core mechanics in the game that honestly do need a bit of a once-over. Note: Pablo's responsible for a ton of my favorite parts of this game, like Nezha and Wukong's reworks, as well as Nullifiers. Yes, I think Nullifiers are a good addition. ...Except when I'm playing max range Limbo.

Warframes: We all have at least one frame that we think needs a little love. Mesa needs a new 1. Excalibur's 1 needs to be retuned for Melee 3.0. Garuda is basically a Valkyr rework, and she has her own problems like blood ball management and a fun bug if you cast her 1 too fast. Grendel is Grendel. Hydroid is about as effective at killing enemies as slapping them with noodles. Obviously, some players love these frames as they are, but with the Helminth system came a chance for us to get a look at what abilities players thought were better being replaced with something wholesale, and it really does feel like a band-aid approach. I think a good once-over of every frame would do some good. Not even big changes, for some it would literally just be tweaking AOE/aiming and shifting some numbers and scaling around. And for Void's sake, we really should be able to recast buffs while they're active, rather than having to have a ton of mods thrown at us to allow them to be recast. Convenience is rarely worth a mod slot.

Weapons: I like the idea of the Galvanized mods, as they introduce what's basically a combo counter to a lot of weapons, but again, this was a faster solution in the place of a more thorough one, especially when paired with arcanes. I think mechanically the new primary and secondary arcanes are tuned just fine, but I do feel as though a lot of the problem is the systemic failure that is the damage system. There is practically no reason to run viral/fire outside of very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, gas and magnetic have almost no real utility outside of basically two enemy types, even though gas is probably one of the most fun status effects. Magnetic, however, has no utility outside of shielded enemies, which are almost non-existent outside of the Corpus, and toxin ignores shields anyway. Seriously, what is the point of having magnetic damage outside of semi-scripted fights like Profit Taker? To make matters worse, there are twelve flavors of enemy resistance types with thirteen types of damage (excluding "object" enemies like Blunts and True and Void damage types, which have no resistances), and a lot of the damage vs resistance matchups don't really make sense. Why does poisonous gas do less damage to living flesh and more damage to infested flesh? Why does electricity do less damage to alloy armor, despite metals being conductive (generally)? And then there's another problem.

Primaries: There are, realistically, six categories of primary weapons: automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifles, sniper rifles, shotguns, launchers, and bows, along with a few oddballs lumped into other categories like the Phage, Phantasma, and Ignis. Tuning-wise however, there are almost no situations where you would want to use a semi-auto over an auto rifle. For example, assuming you have perfect timing (or just assign mouse-wheel down) you can fire a Latron Prime 4 times per second, with each shot at a base of 90 damage. A Tenora (classique) will spool up to doing 11 shots per second at 40 damage. The Latron Prime has lower crit chance and higher crit damage and status chance, but you're way more likely to have a Tenora crit, and having almost 3 times the fire rate means a higher probability of status effects. Both are dwarfed by the sheer destructive power of the Cedo, which not only has innate Condition Overload, but also an AOE that spreads a TON of status. It's an automatic shotgun, and probably the best weapon in the game, which is why it makes sense to lock it behind a long rep grind. However, all of these are MR 8 weapons. I understand that older weapons aren't going to be as highly tuned as more recent ones. However, there really should be more consistency among the relationship between fire rate and damage per shot. A more math-savvy Tenno could probably do proper DPS graph of what a mag dump would look like for each weapon, but I think most of us would rather run explosives anyway.

Modding: Warframes, and I'd argue melee weapons, have a ton of wiggle room in modding. Primaries and secondaries are basically "build hybrid crit/status with Viral/fire." If the point of having eight mod slots is the give players the freedom to have a unique weapon instead of a tech tree, then that design has failed. Every now and then you get a weird outlier of a weapon like the Tiberon Prime that can be modded towards any one of its strengths. But unless you're in very late game or running Chroma, there's almost never a reason not to add base damage or multishot to weapons. My opinion on Multishot has always been that it's a glorified, upgraded version of crit chance, and many Warframe youtubers basically repeat the mantra of one or two "free mod slots" or "preference slots," meaning the ones not devoted to damage, multishot, viral, and crit. The most fun weapons I've ever built were a set of max fire rate Twin Vipers and a max magazine Carmine Penta (the Grenade Scythe), but there's absolutely no reason to ever use them, and in most situations they're unusable. On one hand, weapons level like Warframes, so it would make sense for a weapon's power to scale with level, but on the other hand, that would also mean a lot of homogenization of weapons. ...Honestly I'm not sure how to tackle this.

Player Feedback: Why is there no in-game way for players to give feedback on new content? A simple rating box that you can access if you've done the requisite task would be great! A great example would be Yareli. The forums have made it very clear (myself included) that she has some serious problems. But to make your voice heard, you need to go to the forums, and because all of the feedback is being done in a massive batch, a lot of it gets lost. While I'll admit a lot of players are really optimistic about some changes (someone basically suggested a full rework of Merulina to be a whale, like... lol wut), there is a ton of requests that are really reasonable that will probably be lost to the ether. Not to mention the simple problem of "how many players post of the forums?" Just some buttons in game that integrate with the game's data would be fantastic. It would also be cool to have a wider access to some beta features to see what's coming down the pipeline. I love the Tennocon relays, and I think it would be awesome to have them in game for every dev-stream. I don't know what that would look like from a back-end perspective, but it would be a way more positive experience to hang out in a relay with fellow tenno rather than try and comprehend Twitch chat from literally everywhere on Earth.

I know this was a long, rambling post. I'm not meaning to be like "rawrgh Pablo bad." I honestly think he's one of the coolest figures in gaming right now, being an extremely active player in a game he's developing. I just thought that particular line rubbed me a little the wrong way. To quote Shuri from Black Panther: "Just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved." I mean, I wouldn't have put thousands of hours into a game I don't love. But there are some things that I feel really deserve some polish and love.

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IMO they should never look to "making new content" first. Their first thought when developing should be "ok, is there anything outdated or broken in our game right now? If so lets fix it, if not, then move onto new stuff" but that's just my opinion. I sure know we have a lot that needs fixing/brining up to speed. Invasions, syndicates, free roams, railjack, nightmare missions the list goes on.

Edited by Joezone619
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Im not going to read this wall of text. But Pablo never said they weren't ever going to touch old content again. He just said they have more pressing issues and only so many hours in the day.

He also said, that instead of overhauling and reworking existing frames into new frames it would be better to just release a new frame with those ideas while just gently adjusting old content and mostly leaving it as it is so all parties are happy.

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1 minute ago, Zhoyzu said:

Im not going to read this wall of text. But Pablo never said they weren't ever going to touch old content again. He just said they have more pressing issues and only so many hours in the day.

He also said, that instead of overhauling and reworking existing frames into new frames it would be better to just release a new frame with those ideas while just gently adjusting old content and mostly leaving it as it is so all parties are happy.

That's what I'm getting at. Here's the TL;DR: Some frames really just need some tweaking, and some limits of old abilities should be rethought. Modding boils down to one real setup for most weapons, and damage in general is boring right now. I'm not saying "rework everything," I'm just saying some core things could use a second look. Really more a complaint about the phrasing he used.

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Just now, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

That's what I'm getting at. Here's the TL;DR: Some frames really just need some tweaking, and some limits of old abilities should be rethought. Modding boils down to one real setup for most weapons, and damage in general is boring right now. I'm not saying "rework everything," I'm just saying some core things could use a second look. Really more a complaint about the phrasing he used.

I thought the phrasing was as clear as could be. Which is why im astonished at these threads blowing up about how Pablo said DE is done looking at old content. Cause thats not what was construed.

Thanks for the tldr but like modding has always been 80-90% same builds. Before dmg 2.0 it was rainbow builds sometimes with a little crit on the side. Theres certainly more diversity now than there was 6-7 years ago

 

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This is why they should just open the flood gates and let players rework these outdated frames themselves with The Helminth system. 

Helminth system should now allow you to infuse one warframe ability and one Helminth ability. 

Most Outdated frames at least have 2 bad abilities.

Now outdated warframe mains are satisfied while DE can focus on other stuff.

Edited by DrivaMain
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3 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Pablo said he would much rather work on new content rather than fix old stuff, and as such no additional Warframe reworks are pending.

 

3 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I just thought that particular line rubbed me a little the wrong way.

 

Yeah, same here. I try to give him (and DE generally) the benefit of the doubt, but this sounds like something coming from the money-grubbing side of things rather than a sincere "health of the game" developer perspective. It just felt gross to hear. I could forgive it for awhile if it's because they are working on a massive update--which they are--but I'm hoping that once said update drops, they'll go back and do a quality pass on the game in much needed places. I know it's not as sexy as creating cool new stuff, but it is necessary.

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3 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

During the Q&A in the dev panel, Pablo said he would much rather work on new content rather than fix old stuff, and as such no additional Warframe reworks are pending.

Kind of nitpicky but, to be fair, weren't most reworks someone coming up with an idea for a rework and them just saying "screw it, let's do it"? I don't think there were really any plans for reworks or touch-ups: many just kind of popped up from the cognitosphere.

That said, they probably should consider planning even that part out. Have brainstorming sessions over how to fix the variety of issues - big or small - scattered in older content. Nothing need be concrete then-and-there: if I'm right about those reworks coming up from nowhere and just getting greenlit, then they already have a process for getting an idea going. They just need the process for generating the idea.

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4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Helminth system should now allow you to infuse one warframe ability and one Helminth ability. 

Should just let us pick 2 whatever abilities. Most iconic abilities already have effect reduce to 50-75% comparing to the original. 2 Helminth abilities together are not OP in anyway.

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6 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I hate the idea of have 47 Warframes with at least half of them having either a wasted ability

It's not just Pablo. Scott has said on stream that if a warframe has two bad abilities and two good abilities, he doesn't think it needs a rework. They really only have so much bandwidth, and as much as we more enfranchised players might like this:

5 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

IMO they should never look to "making new content" first. Their first thought when developing should be "ok, is there anything outdated or broken in our game right now? If so lets fix it, if not, then move onto new stuff" but that's just my opinion.

it really is a bad idea for the game from a monetisation standpoint. They have to prioritise the things that keep the game running.

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6 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

I thought the phrasing was as clear as could be. Which is why im astonished at these threads blowing up about how Pablo said DE is done looking at old content. Cause thats not what was construed.

Thanks for the tldr but like modding has always been 80-90% same builds. Before dmg 2.0 it was rainbow builds sometimes with a little crit on the side. Theres certainly more diversity now than there was 6-7 years ago

 

I miss my damage 1.0 Soma...

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9 minutes ago, Dreddgrave said:

I'd be down for not getting a brand new frame for a year if it meant at least one good rework came out of it.

We don't /need/ new warframes as often as we get them, we've got tons

It doesn't have to be zero sum like this, though. Different staff members work on different aspects of the game, so it's possible to get another couple frames through the year while also bringing some other frames up to current standards. What I don't like to see is when these reworks utterly destroy the identity of the frame in such a way that it's no longer recognizable from its former self (Ember really comes to mind here).

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Maybe in the future Tencent will encourage them to change their policy. There certainly is money to make from pumping out new Magical Anime Girls warframes, but perhaps there could also be a valuable reason to make dated frames more... fresh and offensive.

rHDPrr0.png

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2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It doesn't have to be zero sum like this, though. Different staff members work on different aspects of the game, so it's possible to get another couple frames through the year while also bringing some other frames up to current standards. What I don't like to see is when these reworks utterly destroy the identity of the frame in such a way that it's no longer recognizable from its former self (Ember really comes to mind here).

Yeah, it doesn't have to be. I'm just not a developer or privy to the internal functions of the DE staff. I'm just stating what lengths I'd be okay with to see results I'd prefer. Steps in the right direction or if they found some way to continue at their pace while reworking frames then godspeed to them.

I just believe, as updates have been going lately, DE is fatigued from feature creep in a desperate attempt to keep hype building at all times. We can see some of the work they've done to mitigate this by reducing the frequency of dev-talks but I think they need to slow down and do some easy work for a while if not take some kind of vacation.

God knows the playerbase could use a break XD

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On 2021-07-20 at 5:15 AM, GrayArchon said:

It's not just Pablo. Scott has said on stream that if a warframe has two bad abilities and two good abilities, he doesn't think it needs a rework. They really only have so much bandwidth, and as much as we more enfranchised players might like this:

Digital Extremes is not a small game studio with no resources. There are over 300 employes, yet the content they put out is miniscule. In the time DE released one game mode called RJ, other smaller studious release full games. Great games.

 

On 2021-07-20 at 5:15 AM, GrayArchon said:

it really is a bad idea for the game from a monetisation standpoint. They have to prioritise the things that keep the game running.

Exactly, and revisiting old disfunctional content is one way to keep new players engaged as well as recover some old plaers. Most of the Arsenal is dead weight. Mission design is repetitive and game time is inflated by monotonuos grind. No end game. No balance.

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On 2021-07-20 at 8:30 AM, ShortCat said:

Digital Extremes is not a small game studio with no resources. There are over 300 employes, yet the content they put out is miniscule. In the time DE released one game mode called RJ, other smaller studious release full games. Great games.

DE is mostly full of artists, they are pretty lacking in the programming side of things. This explains why DE always puke out cool concept arts, art assets, musics like there is no tomorrow.. but the implementing process into the game and the gameplay development process is so slow and "mediocre".

Unlike those indie developers, DE has a schedule to keep up to keep the game fresh every month, while those great games takes YEARS to develop.

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1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

DE is mostly full of artists

Are they though? If this is truly the case, they need to hire more developers, like yesterday.

I also do not see that much high quality art in the game: item icons look samey, new Frame designes are meh; Primes are mostly just base modsls with extra stuff; delux skins aren't particulary appealing even if its more on the personal note; reworked tilesets look way to busy with a lot of visual noise from random colors pallets and pointless moving displays, UI is barely functional after it got scolded by community several times. Some weapons designs are still great, yet best additions are from the community.

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3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Are they though? If this is truly the case, they need to hire more developers, like yesterday.

I also do not see that much high quality art in the game: item icons look samey, new Frame designes are meh; Primes are mostly just base modsls with extra stuff; delux skins aren't particulary appealing even if its more on the personal note; reworked tilesets look way to busy with a lot of visual noise from random colors pallets and pointless moving displays, UI is barely functional after it got scolded by community several times. Some weapons designs are still great, yet best additions are from the community.

Art is subjective they say. I find them to be great, well I guess their art style is not your cup of tea.

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On 2021-07-20 at 8:20 AM, FrostDragoon said:

It doesn't have to be zero sum like this, though. Different staff members work on different aspects of the game, so it's possible to get another couple frames through the year while also bringing some other frames up to current standards. What I don't like to see is when these reworks utterly destroy the identity of the frame in such a way that it's no longer recognizable from its former self (Ember really comes to mind here).

Ember is totally better than she ever was. she even got her oldest abilities back and better than before. If anything shes closer to her original identity than she had been for a long time.

 

On 2021-07-20 at 8:30 AM, ShortCat said:

Digital Extremes is not a small game studio with no resources. There are over 300 employes, yet the content they put out is miniscule. In the time DE released one game mode called RJ, other smaller studious release full games. Great games.

You see, you wrong in thinking railjack is bad. Its literally the best content this game has seen in 6 years.

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6 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

You see, you wrong in thinking railjack is bad. Its literally the best content this game has seen in 6 years.

Couldn't agree more. If they'd divorce regular mission content from Railjack and just let RJ be RJ, it would be even better. The part that people don't like is the "normal missions with extra steps" side of using RJ to just taxi you there instead of the RJ missions being about RJ.

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1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Couldn't agree more. If they'd divorce regular mission content from Railjack and just let RJ be RJ, it would be even better. The part that people don't like is the "normal missions with extra steps" side of using RJ to just taxi you there instead of the RJ missions being about RJ.

The "people" aren't one person. 

People asked for this, so now you get what the people asked for.

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The "people" aren't one person. 

People asked for this, so now you get what the people asked for.

Weird claim, considering I mostly see the opposite being asked for. The current state of RJ strongly feels like DE just wanted to extend mission times artificially and this was the best they could come up with instead of actually adding more RJ-focused stuff to do.

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17 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Weird claim, considering I mostly see the opposite being asked for. The current state of RJ strongly feels like DE just wanted to extend mission times artificially and this was the best they could come up with instead of actually adding more RJ-focused stuff to do.

I'm referring to before railjack was revamped and the forums were flooded with people literally saying railjack should have exactly what was added. 

 

 

Modding isn't just adding viral and heat, that's what bad players do. Bad players literally admit they're too lazy to mod according to faction. 

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