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I disagree with [DE]Pablo on something, and other general thoughts I've had kicking around.


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35 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Weird claim, considering I mostly see the opposite being asked for.

I don't know how many people want what, but presumably the people who are satisfied with it have a lot less reason to speak up.

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41 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know how many people want what, but presumably the people who are satisfied with it have a lot less reason to speak up.

This is true, If people are satisfied, they stopped complaining and be silent. Back on Railjack's launch a lot of people WANT to merge star chart game modes into Railjack together. Since their wishes came true, they never came and write long rants on how Railjack feels like an isolated game mode and they say "It's 90% railjack and 10% ground" and once again if you change something, there will be new groups forming up resisting that change. A Good example of this is the self damage removal, since the change was announced new people shows up demanding DE to not implement the change.

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Railjack came in on the hype of linked space and ground squads, in addition to the straight railjack content. When that was not delivered after literally seeing it working live during Tennocon there was alot of disappointment. For the record, I liked what it presented on launch but it needed bugfixes, polish, and extension towards the elements we saw on display during the demo. I understood it was one step in making a grander vision come to life ingame, but as it didn't take off it was hard for me as a player to keep playing something disconnected from the Warframe core mission game loops even though I enjoyed it, and difficult for them to justify spending time on something that wasn't being played as much. This stalled it being iterated and finished properly and in a timely fashion I think.  Add to this the chorus of ' it's a content island! useless unless you connect it to other things! '  and you get the railjack we have now, which I feel is a good balance of the two but still far from a complete realization of the possibilities for RJ.

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On 2021-07-20 at 7:40 AM, Zhoyzu said:

Was Soma even around during that period of time? im not certain.

It was. I have a friend who refuses to play WF because of the time he joined me, thinking we'd be of even levels, and I had a Soma with rainbow damage, back before Status Chance was even a stat. Everything was simultaneously on fire, frozen, oozing, and zapping. And the Soma, I believe, either had innate Punch-through or I had it modded for it. That, and the Soma was released well before the Prosecutors were put in the game, which marked when combo elements were added.

 

Holy Profit guys, you were at it for a while. Just gonna comment on a few things:

1) last devstream Steve did say that DE is hiring in response to a lot of players kind of aggressively demanding reworks, so if you're a programmer and wanna move to Canada... 

2) Railjack Re-revisited was a VERY welcome change to the game, and I think it's been my favorite update so far in the past year. That's kind of why I'm saying I would like to see more revisions to the game to keep it current.

3) Yes, DE is WAY heavier on the concept artist side of things, and you could make the argument that there are almost too many artists at DE. That said, this game is probably my favorite game, artistically, outside of Armored Core and Borderlands.

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

It was. I have a friend who refuses to play WF because of the time he joined me, thinking we'd be of even levels, and I had a Soma with rainbow damage, back before Status Chance was even a stat. Everything was simultaneously on fire, frozen, oozing, and zapping. And the Soma, I believe, either had innate Punch-through or I had it modded for it. That, and the Soma was released well before the Prosecutors were put in the game, which marked when combo elements were added.

Yea i had to look up its release date on the wiki lol. I remember being Salty as hell they released the soma rather than buff the grakata. It was the beginning of a slippery slope IMO.

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2 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

Yea i had to look up its release date on the wiki lol. I remember being Salty as hell they released the soma rather than buff the grakata. It was the beginning of a slippery slope IMO.

Yeah, but now you can have TWO Grakatas. And if you want a really bizarre build, three. And the Vastilok looks vaguely Grakatesque.

Screw it, next frame is just four Grakatas duct taped to a Xaku skeleton.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm referring to before railjack was revamped and the forums were flooded with people literally saying railjack should have exactly what was added. 

 

Perhaps it should be reverted then, since those people clearly didn't stick around to play the content they allegedly asked for.

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40 minutes ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Yeah, but now you can have TWO Grakatas. And if you want a really bizarre build, three. And the Vastilok looks vaguely Grakatesque.

Screw it, next frame is just four Grakatas duct taped to a Xaku skeleton.

LOL im sold. Used to love grakata paired with sonar for massive crits.

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I think they are ultimately more concerned with new frames/ content that will sell and pull players in than the less profitable reworks.

Is it fun for older players? No.

Is it the best idea for their business? Most likely.

Its a shame, but I don't see this changing any time soon.

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Honestly, for me this mentality is why I had ZERO interest in TennoCon. As of late DE launches frankly "why did they even think anyone would find this fun" content; and then refuses to fix it. 

After months, and honestly when it will keep people from playing the next broken update is the only reason they change it.

Protea fight was updated; likely because few would have played Deimos at all with it being a pre req to even play it.

Conservation was updated, because people were avoiding the update and so no one had Mechs for Orphix.

Now we have forced k-drive and so on... will they ever fix it? Depends will you need to have done that quest to play new war? if not they will never fix it.

For far to long this has been the pattern. While I love the story; I give it 70/30 against if any of the New War will be playable. 

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On 2021-07-19 at 5:16 PM, Zhoyzu said:

Im not going to read this wall of text. But Pablo never said they weren't ever going to touch old content again. He just said they have more pressing issues and only so many hours in the day.

He also said, that instead of overhauling and reworking existing frames into new frames it would be better to just release a new frame with those ideas while just gently adjusting old content and mostly leaving it as it is so all parties are happy.

Who is happy with Hydroid though?

 

Yeah, we get way too many rework posts and requests.  It seems like the second a frame drops, rework requests are piling up (rightly so, in Yareli's case, but I digress).  For most of them, they're not needed (controversial opinion, but Grendel, Frost, Valkyr, Banshee, and Loki are all fine).  But I think that when a clear bottom of the barrel exists, that frame should be a priority for a rework, even if it has to wait to align with an unvaulting, deluxe skin drop, or initial prime release to help recoup the costs.

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There's a lot of content that needs to be looked at, but jiggling warframe's abilities is not really one of them. suree some are a bit outdated, but so what. Use something ewlse, or subsume an ability.

 

there are things that are seriously outdated and need to be address however, sentinels survivability for example, or sentinel weapon effectiveness. One-shotting by acolytes for example (and therefore the massive damage power crept system), matchmaking for open worlds, or host migration issues, etc

 

17 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

The current state of RJ strongly feels like DE just wanted to extend mission times artificially

I don't think so, sure they put some content behind very long grinds (Ash, and now Ambassador) but I think the RJ-taxi-to-ground really came about because they wanted to put Orphix somewhere and coulnd't figure out how to have it in RJ-only content. Hence the stop/start nature.

I think they could have done it by simply putting Orphix missions behind a key that youy acquire playing RJ and then can start the orphix mission just by clicking its node, skipping the RJ taxi part completely. then RJ could have remained in its pure form that we enjoy with the Grineer.

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3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

There's a lot of content that needs to be looked at, but jiggling warframe's abilities is not really one of them. suree some are a bit outdated, but so what. Use something ewlse, or subsume an ability.

 

there are things that are seriously outdated and need to be address however, sentinels survivability for example, or sentinel weapon effectiveness. One-shotting by acolytes for example (and therefore the massive damage power crept system), matchmaking for open worlds, or host migration issues, etc

Yeah.  When a system is so broken that it makes the game unpleasant to play (pet survivability), it should be addressed.  I'm never going to bother with those hounds again because leveling them was such a mess.

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3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

I don't think so, sure they put some content behind very long grinds (Ash, and now Ambassador) but I think the RJ-taxi-to-ground really came about because they wanted to put Orphix somewhere and coulnd't figure out how to have it in RJ-only content. Hence the stop/start nature.

I think they could have done it by simply putting Orphix missions behind a key that youy acquire playing RJ and then can start the orphix mission just by clicking its node, skipping the RJ taxi part completely. then RJ could have remained in its pure form that we enjoy with the Grineer.

Oh, man... Don't get me started on how awful Orphix is--or how dead, lol. Even if what you say is true, I'm pretty sure this experiment has proven to be faulty in both premise and results.

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AGREE 100%. Ever since Pablo is on the team, his ideas have made the weapon and damage systems worse. Major NERFS after NERFS after NERFS. His presentation always talks about "balancing" but in reality it's nerfing. I strongly wondered if he works for another competing game to destroy Warframe from 2018-late 2020. He finds "issues" and sees the game as a "problem". This mindset is terrible to develop any games! Games are for fun, not problems! Someone on the team must have found that and noticed the dropping player base. 2021 has been overall a better years to buff most weapons and mods up. now players are coming back.

Edited by George_PPS
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26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Oh, man... Don't get me started on how awful Orphix is--or how dead, lol. Even if what you say is true, I'm pretty sure this experiment has proven to be faulty in both premise and results.

The only node I haven't finished on RJ is the final Veil Orphix mission. I just don't see the point to doing it. I think that fundamentally RJ's mission structure is flawed, and putting Orphix gametypes in RJ is a bad idea. I also think there's no real reason why Railjack missions should get their own map, now that the entire point of splitting that map off (making it possible to force hosting/client) has been removed, rather foolishly in my opinion.

5 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Who is happy with Hydroid though?

Yeah, we get way too many rework posts and requests.  It seems like the second a frame drops, rework requests are piling up (rightly so, in Yareli's case, but I digress).  For most of them, they're not needed (controversial opinion, but Grendel, Frost, Valkyr, Banshee, and Loki are all fine).  But I think that when a clear bottom of the barrel exists, that frame should be a priority for a rework, even if it has to wait to align with an unvaulting, deluxe skin drop, or initial prime release to help recoup the costs.

I totally agree with you that the flood of rework ideas I see on the Warframe feedback page is just staggering. Especially when that one guy constantly whines about Revenant. But it would be great if just the numbers on some abilities were updated. And some frames do have seriously redundant abilities, like Nyx's Mind Control and Chaos. And no one in their right mind would say Valkyr's Rip Line is any good. I've been playing her since she debuted, and I can safely say that it's never been useful, except some VERY edge cases before Bullet Jumping was implemented.

5 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

AGREE 100%. Ever since Pablo is on the team, his ideas have made the weapon and damage systems worse. Major NERFS after NERFS after NERFS. His presentation always talks about "balancing" but in reality it's nerfing. I strongly wondered if he works for another competing game to destroy Warframe from 2018-late 2020. He finds "issues" and sees the game as a "problem". This mindset is terrible to develop any games! Games are for fun, not problems! Someone on the team must have found that and noticed the dropping player base. 2021 has been overall a better years to buff most weapons and mods up. now players are coming back.

Calm down, pally. There's no need to be this aggressive. Anyway, I... disagree with your agreement? Like, did you even read my post? Nerfs are actually a good thing, when done correctly. Not to mention Pablo isn't the only one behind these decisions. The melee changes that went through this patch were actually barely noticeable, and it feels like it's actually good to use guns in Steel Path now. Like, what nerfs are you even talking about? I can't even think of any nerfs that have happened outside of the ones that happened this patch. And yeah, games are for fun, but being totally unstoppable ruins the entire point of the challenge.

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Just now, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

 

I totally agree with you that the flood of rework ideas I see on the Warframe feedback page is just staggering. Especially when that one guy constantly whines about Revenant. But it would be great if just the numbers on some abilities were updated. And some frames do have seriously redundant abilities, like Nyx's Mind Control and Chaos. And no one in their right mind would say Valkyr's Rip Line is any good. I've been playing her since she debuted, and I can safely say that it's never been useful, except some VERY edge cases before Bullet Jumping was implemented.

 

I'm that weirdo that absolutely loves her ripline.  It's an extra bullet jump or more, and really helps change direction mid-air.  Then again, I'm also the sort of weirdo that doesn't put Narrow Minded on Valkyr.  I definitely seem to be in the minority.

 

But over all I agree with you on the other points.

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On 2021-07-20 at 8:44 PM, Zhoyzu said:

You see, you wrong in thinking railjack is bad. Its literally the best content this game has seen in 6 years.

*Used to be the best content, then Railjack 3.0 happened. 

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On 2021-07-21 at 11:02 AM, gbjbaanb said:

There's a lot of content that needs to be looked at, but jiggling warframe's abilities is not really one of them. suree some are a bit outdated, but so what. Use something ewlse, or subsume an ability.

Subsuming, for all of the benefits that it does have, does not make up for the lackluster design choices on DE's end. To have two, let alone one useless ability, should be incentive enough for the developers to improve & innovate, not walk away from the problem. Even some of those lackluster abilities made it into the Helminth system. You don't have to use them, and the charts show it, so why do they so eagerly ignore these problems? The community has come up with hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions of different ideas, plenty good & bad, to rectify the problem.

On 2021-07-21 at 3:34 PM, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I totally agree with you that the flood of rework ideas I see on the Warframe feedback page is just staggering. Especially when that one guy constantly whines about Revenant.

I'm in agreement with the lad, if only because the forced vampirism takes away from what could be an even better Eidolon-inspired kit. Garuda's blood mage/vampire elements are more thought out in comparison to Revenant's abilities. Eidolons don't put enemies to sleep, evaporate into mist or demonstrate mind control capabilities. They're pure, unmitigated energy conductors; shooting lasers, summoning lightning, sending forth energy orbs, relying upon the energy of Vomvolysts, unleashing magnetic pulse waves and tanking hits like no tomorrow. Agree or disagree, I just understand where he's coming from.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Subsuming, for all of the benefits that it does have, does not make up for the lackluster design choices on DE's end

That's not fair. Look at the example given in a post before yoours - someone says Valkyr's ripline is useless, and the very next post is someone saying how he uses it all the time. Whatever DE does, it will never be good enough, so they gave you subsume, make use of it.

As always, if you want to critique a game design, you have to do it from the point of view of the game. Too many players do it from the point of view of themselves and their personal preferences (which are generally "make it OP" anyway)

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4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'm that weirdo that absolutely loves her ripline.  It's an extra bullet jump or more, and really helps change direction mid-air.  Then again, I'm also the sort of weirdo that doesn't put Narrow Minded on Valkyr.

Ripline could be  better and more consistent but can be extremely fun.  Something I only discovered trying to maximize the range and effectiveness of another shunned ability: Paralysis.

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8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Ripline could be  better and more consistent but can be extremely fun.  Something I only discovered trying to maximize the range and effectiveness of another shunned ability: Paralysis.

I've actually done a similar build some years ago. Building around her kit, rather than her 4, can be really fun and rewarding. Far from meta, and of questionable viability, sure... but it's exactly this kind of stuff that I love in Warframe--the power to choose and customize how you see fit.

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2 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

That's not fair. Look at the example given in a post before yoours - someone says Valkyr's ripline is useless, and the very next post is someone saying how he uses it all the time. Whatever DE does, it will never be good enough, so they gave you subsume, make use of it.

As always, if you want to critique a game design, you have to do it from the point of view of the game. Too many players do it from the point of view of themselves and their personal preferences (which are generally "make it OP" anyway)

Remember the Parazon? Remember when we used it to keep up with the Jackel in its reworked boss room, albeit in a cutscene? Yeah, we can retool things so that ideas don't go to waste. It'd essentially be Ripline all over again, just for every single Warframe, and Valkyr can get a brand new ability to boot.

What should we define as fair? Is it fair for Yareli to be in such a bad state? Is it fair for Hydroid players to have such a bad Warframe? Is it fair that Chroma players only have 2 useful abilities? Is it fair for Atlas, Gara & Khora players to need stat sticks while other Warframes with Exalted weapons enjoy the benefits of modding? Is it fair to Vauban players to still have the Vector Pad in spite of their protests? Once again, what defines fairness?

All I look for in a Warframe's kit are usefulness all around & thematic cohesion. If one or both are lacking, I'm bound to protest. The Helminth is band-aid much like the Galvanized mods are, leaving the lesser Warframes in a mechanical rut until "newer, better solutions" come along to distract everyone from the problem. That doesn't mean that I despise the Helminth system, I just despise DE's laziness when it comes to delivering the best possible experience. People wouldn't have incentive for replacing certain abilities if not for their poor performance. I do enjoy the idea of mixing & matching abilities for the sake of experimental hijinks, but let's not forget the intentions, intended or otherwise.

Edited by (PSN)IndianChiefJeff
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2 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

That's not fair. Look at the example given in a post before yoours - someone says Valkyr's ripline is useless, and the very next post is someone saying how he uses it all the time. Whatever DE does, it will never be good enough, so they gave you subsume, make use of it.

As always, if you want to critique a game design, you have to do it from the point of view of the game. Too many players do it from the point of view of themselves and their personal preferences (which are generally "make it OP" anyway)

The Helminth, as problematic as it is, does make certain frames need a rework less.  Frames with one really bad ability are now a great choice for using the Helminth.  Frost and Excalibur come to mind, though they certainly aren't the only ones.

 

But what can the Helminth really do for the bottom of the barrel, for Hydroid (and now Yareli)?  It alone can't make them worth using.  So I get that DE wants to focus on new content.  I just hope that they also find time and resources for polishing up the most egregious offenders, even if it means, as I have said, timing it alongside a moneymaker: a deluxe skin, a prime release, an unvaulting, etc.

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