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Galvanized mod are a joke


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On 2021-07-19 at 3:35 PM, LokitaUmbra said:

I come to show that the galvanized mods are a joke , barrel diffusion gives us 120% multishot in rifles and the galvanized version gives us 110% plus 30% when we kill and stack 4 times , You need to kill to have more multishot but the% of normal is almost the same and if my weapon kills with the normal diffusion I don't need more multishot because it will continue to kill , The same applies to the new arcana that require you to kill, so I want more damage when I'm already killing without needing that extra damage .

Except the stacks deplete one at a time rather than all at once. It makes managing them much easier.

On 2021-07-19 at 3:35 PM, LokitaUmbra said:

The only thing we got from all this was a hard hit to the melee where it was very nerfed

Overexaggerating is quite a drug. Losing around 10-30% of tens of thousands, if not even hundreds or up to even millions of damage barely affects Melee. Melee makes the game rather stale as almost all Melee weapons are monotone compared to ranged weapons.

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, the argument is about Equity.

Let's take the fence and box example; There are three people, one short, one medium, one tall, and they need to see over the top of a fence.

Equality is to give them all a box to stand on. But it does not solve the problem, because the tall person could see over without a box, and the short person standing on a box still can't see. The medium person can see with a box, so their problem is solved. In modern society, 2 out of 3 ain't bad, but that's kind of the problem as well.

Equity is to give the short person two boxes so they can see over the fence, the medium person one box, and leave the tall person as they are. Now all of them can see over the top of the fence, and the problem has been solved.

This is the thing that needs to be sorted out between Melee and Guns.

While i understand equality and equity , trying to bring economic attributes into this discussion is pointless. and the example you have given , though useful for purpose of providing examples on equity and equality , is also equally pointless. Those principles do not apply in an arbitrary environment with absolute control with one entity.

And even if we did , I would advocate for cutting off the legs of the tall guy so none of them can actually look over the fence , the fence exists for a reason - to keep outsiders out if everyone is given boxes to look over it the fence owner would just raise the fence and we are back to square one.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Melee has mechanics and base functions that Guns do not. Melee has increased mod capacity, Melee has Follow Through (making every melee an AoE or Cone-of-Effect), Melee has mods that work off the combo counter (which is another function that melee has over Guns) to scale up their functions over time.

DE has attempted to buff guns. While they have partially succeeded, by giving them mods and Arcanes that increase functions based on kills (rather than on hits), what they have forced on them is more investment needed to achieve that. While the mods are powerful (unlike the original post's claims), the difference between Guns and Melee isn't so easily bridged.

Yes, i agree there is investment needed if you really want the additional power and you are starting at the bottom , and i never disagreed that melee power levels are different than gun levels , i always did state that it is a good start , but the goal is not achieved.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

On the actual topic of the Mod Capacity, though, let's have a little walk down mathematics lane:

Melee has, with a stance on the matching polarity and a potato, 70 mod points available. They then have 8 slots. This means that the average slot can have a mod that costs 8.75 points. And what is the highest cost, with the right polarisation, that any mod has in the game? It's Rivens with 9 after Polarisation. Which you can only have 1 of on your weapon. And not one single other mod in their build has more than 8 after polarisation.

Meanwhile, There's Guns.

Guns have 9 slots, and only 60 mod points available. That works out at 6.66 points per slot. You may start to see the problem here.

Even worse. Guns didn't need the Galvanised mods to have this problem. It existed before them.

Guns have Serration, Galvanised/Split Chamber and a Riven right out of the gate that cost 7, 8 and 9 respectively after polarisation, leaving the rest of the build (6 other slots) requiring an average of 6 points each to fit the build.

While it's possible to do that, there are other mods that players want to use, like Internal Bleeding, like Primed Firestorm, like Primed Shred/Bane/Cryo Rounds, all of which cost greater than the average and push down the points available for the remaining slots.

Don't really disagree with the maths ,but i disagree that every single mod slot needs to be filled with the top of the line primed mods. There are mods that are above average 6 per slot (polarised) but there are also those that are lower (most builds would usually have atleast 2 with 4 or 5).

My comment was not made in comparison to melee , it was within power of ranged weapons. Making a conscious decision between which mods to use based on the limited resources is something every player should do , most would rather just put in the highest rank mod they have and then complain there is not enough capacity (even though they would get more effective use out of a lower ranked mod). Its not a problem , its lack of flexibility of the individual.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So yeah.

Mod Point Limits are a thing to check the power.

My point on the matter is that this is a joke because Guns currently don't have the power. And Melee, which currently has the power, also has greater mod point capacity.

DE didn't address that in this update at all. They slung more mods at us.

And while I will argue against OP's point that the Galvanised mods are useless, because I've found plenty of use for them, I will also argue that this update didn't do anywhere near enough for guns.

Also that using the 'power check' argument on this is stupid, because what power are they actually checking? Not melee's power, not Warframe's power. Only guns, which don't have the power compared to either of those things anyway.

Cant keep power creeping everything -as stated repeatedly , power check is for the guns (or respective class of weapons themselves) it is not for comparing between classes - need to draw a line somewhere when enough is enough, there are multiple ways to bridge the gap ,

cut off the legs of the tall guys , save on boxes for others and maybe even lower the fence later and use the wood for other housing projects.

I will let you correlate to in game relevance.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

I'm fine with power creep as long as it's tied to continued progression and not handed to players too early on. I like the growth. Keeps me in the game. 

If you truly believe that , the we are not gonna see eye to eye on how the game should change , I will just leave it at that instead of trying to explain how power creep is not the same as power progression.

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20 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Cant keep power creeping everything

No, you can't.

The problem with this argument is that the stated purpose of these mods was to power creep. This was literally for raising the power of guns up to match that of melee.

DE cut the pinky toe off Melee and said that these mods and arcanes were how they were giving boxes to the others.

And, while I can't say they aren't boxes to stand on, I can say that they're very small ones that don't do the job.

As a note, the 'they're not supposed to see over the fence' comment? Is just an attempt to negate the premise of the exercise, when we're discussing the results of the exercise. Should and shouldn't don't come into this, because it's past tense, it's been done and we're discussing how well it's been done, or whether it even succeeded in being done at all. 

In this situation, the fence is the average ability to effectively deal with high-level enemies. The goal is to ensure that weapons, as a form of damage, have the functions that allow them to achieve that.

While not all weapons are created equal, since there is a scale to their effective damage, the current state of affairs is that the lowest of Melee is capable of achieving the goal with the current situation staying as it is.

Yes, you might want to reduce that a little, because it can over-perform, and DE did that by pruning a couple of mods and a couple of weapons that are used for facilitating those mods.

DE up-front told us that their premise is achieving that state of damage ability with the rest of their weapons.

Even though you can take the afore-mentioned box, and bring the high-end of guns up to the same level as melee, just giving the same box to everything is not the answer.

Equality and Equity are not relegated to Economic issues, nor Political or Social.

They're based on achieving goals based on a metric. 

DE stated the goal, and have given us the metric, and what we have is their attempt at achieving the goal. While it is an attempt (I've argued in this thread that it's a functional attempt), all it attempts is equality, and it doesn't quite manage that.

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On 2021-07-19 at 3:42 PM, TheGoodDarius said:

Have you actually used any of the Galvanized mods or is this theory crafting we are doing?

This was my first thought too.

My immediate next thought is that he's not playing on Steel Path, where these actually matter.

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6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you truly believe that , the we are not gonna see eye to eye on how the game should change , I will just leave it at that instead of trying to explain how power creep is not the same as power progression.

Yeah I MEAN power progression, but galvanized mods aren't that in my opinion. Didn't mean to tilt ya there haha

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10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, you can't.

The problem with this argument is that the stated purpose of these mods was to power creep. This was literally for raising the power of guns up to match that of melee.

DE cut the pinky toe off Melee and said that these mods and arcanes were how they were giving boxes to the others.

And, while I can't say they aren't boxes to stand on, I can say that they're very small ones that don't do the job.

As a note, the 'they're not supposed to see over the fence' comment? Is just an attempt to negate the premise of the exercise, when we're discussing the results of the exercise. Should and shouldn't don't come into this, because it's past tense, it's been done and we're discussing how well it's been done, or whether it even succeeded in being done at all. 

In this situation, the fence is the average ability to effectively deal with high-level enemies. The goal is to ensure that weapons, as a form of damage, have the functions that allow them to achieve that.

While not all weapons are created equal, since there is a scale to their effective damage, the current state of affairs is that the lowest of Melee is capable of achieving the goal with the current situation staying as it is.

Yes, you might want to reduce that a little, because it can over-perform, and DE did that by pruning a couple of mods and a couple of weapons that are used for facilitating those mods.

DE up-front told us that their premise is achieving that state of damage ability with the rest of their weapons.

Even though you can take the afore-mentioned box, and bring the high-end of guns up to the same level as melee, just giving the same box to everything is not the answer.

Equality and Equity are not relegated to Economic issues, nor Political or Social.

They're based on achieving goals based on a metric. 

DE stated the goal, and have given us the metric, and what we have is their attempt at achieving the goal. While it is an attempt (I've argued in this thread that it's a functional attempt), all it attempts is equality, and it doesn't quite manage that.

I cant argue with this as what you have said is pretty much on point. Though i don't see you disagreeing with the rest of the points i made earlier (which was specifically to do with the mod cap and potency of individual mods against their cumulative effect on the gun) so i am assuming we do not have an argument on that anymore or are you choosing to not continue that discussion?

The fence is intended to be the ceiling of challenge where most players should not be able to peek over ,  the fact that they can is an error that should be corrected and not repeated for others. Exceptions should not be used as reference , it is unfortunate that DE has let it get to a point that the ceiling is so high and players feel obligated to try and reach it if they want to feel progress.

The goal was to bridge "the arsenal divide" , has that been achieved? no , but the gap is lesser now and i don't think its the end yet.

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6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The goal was to bridge "the arsenal divide" , has that been achieved? no , but the gap is lesser now and i don't think its the end yet.

Honestly I'd say that at best nothing really changed, and at worst it only made the gap wider between AoE ranged weapons and single target ones under certain stat thresholds.

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3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly I'd say that at best nothing really changed, and at worst it only made the gap wider between AoE ranged weapons and single target ones under certain stat thresholds.

Cant speak for everyone , but i am definitely using some of my guns more often so the change is noticeable for me at least.

And there is still that bug that doesnt affect projectiles (which most aoe weapons are) , i think they should only partially fix that bug such that radial damage is unaffected by the status  stack.

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16 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The goal was to bridge "the arsenal divide" , has that been achieved? no , but the gap is lesser now and i don't think its the end yet.

I think it did move in the right direction, just not far enough.

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Architect Prime:

I'll reiterate that these mods made the strong stronger and the weak a little less weak. 

with nekros i am mostly at 90-98% team damage with ranged aoe weapon.

and most of the time people are not beginners. in my opinion it is pure epic fail! the system is just a joke and only produces leecher or afk people. because why try to get the buffs when someone is already doing 300k - 2mil aoe hits with 11.62 range. absolutely pointless.

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Thank you for conceding the point on that, I can see we've reached at least a partial agreement.

The 'fence' in this analogy, however, is not the power cap that things should not be able to go over. Again, 'seeing over the fence' is the stated developer goal. The fence is the level difference between basic mode and Steel Path mode. To 'see over the fence' is to 'successfully apply damage at a rate that competes with melee'. If you want to push the metaphor further, the fence is something we're not supposed to jump or climb over, or to go past, but we are supposed to be seeing over it.

Again, trying to twist the metaphor to negate the actual purpose of it just doesn't work.

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Though i don't see you disagreeing with the rest of the points i made earlier (which was specifically to do with the mod cap and potency of individual mods against their cumulative effect on the gun) so i am assuming we do not have an argument on that anymore or are you choosing to not continue that discussion?

You dismissed the discussion in the same way by saying that you weren't making your notes on mod capacity in relation to melee.

So I decided to address the larger point, because it falls under the same argument. Not discussing these in relation to melee is completely pointless, because, again, it's the point of these original changes; to bring guns up to the level of melee.

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  • 4 weeks later...

By the same logic, all rifles are useless beyond MK-1 braton because, in conjunction with armor stripping, you can kill everything with it. Why bother increasing damage and crit chance and status chance if MK-1 braton can do the job? Heresy! 

btw I thought this topic has been talked over like a thousand time when Sister of Parvos was announced, like a month ago.

Edited by RichardKam
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Yeah, I don't agree with this. Galv Diffusion (or whatever the multishot for rifles is) allows me to actually be able to use my favorite gun in the game (Baza Prime) in almost any situation. It definitely has the ability to make sub par, or not as great weapons far better. 

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What they should have done with galv mods is make seperate versions for seperate weapons or have them interact differently with different weapons.

AoE weapons/chain beams = on kill trigger.

Snipers/Semi-auto = On hit (guaranteed)

Full auto guns/single beam = On crit and/or on status, with an internal CD of 1 sec.

This would allow them to ramp up efficiently across the board and give single target weapons like sniper rifles, semi-autos and full-autos/single beams an advantage versus single target aswell. Right now AoE weapons are just so far ahead.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

What they should have done with galv mods is make seperate versions for seperate weapons or have them interact differently with different weapons.

AoE weapons/chain beams = on kill trigger.

Snipers/Semi-auto = On hit (guaranteed)

Full auto guns/single beam = On crit and/or on status, with an internal CD of 1 sec.

This would allow them to ramp up efficiently across the board and give single target weapons like sniper rifles, semi-autos and full-autos/single beams an advantage versus single target aswell. Right now AoE weapons are just so far ahead.

An alternative idea for AoE weapons would be to make the trigger on multi-kill (3+ kills maybe?) with a single shot (for explosives), or chaining X number of kills within Y seconds (e.g., for persistent AoE, AoE beams like the Ignis, etc). In theory, I think this would incentivize playing to those weapons' strengths (fighting large groups), without letting you maintain stacks by just shooting anything and everything. In practice, I don't actually know how it would feel (i.e., would want to play around with it first).

But really I would prefer they do away with "on kill" altogether. Fighting other people to get kills, usually just to increase levels of overkill, feels weird in a multiplayer game. 

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On 2021-07-22 at 3:19 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

power creep is not the same as power progression.

Mhm! In much the same way as Tides are not the same as Rising Sea Levels.   One fluctuates as the day goes on, the other permanently raises the baseline.   People demanding more power creep aren't seeing that as we keep pushing the bar higher and higher, it makes more and more of the current game redundant, and piles more work on DE's plate to "rebalance" things, as well as making it more difficult to introduce new challenges/enemies/story/progression into the game.

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1 hour ago, Ascarith said:

Fighting other people to get kills, usually just to increase levels of overkill

...but to that point, IF you're struggling to kill because ALL THE ENEMIES ARE DYING ALREADY, lol...  doesn't that mean that you buffing your weapons would be a moot point in that situation?

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On 2021-07-23 at 2:20 AM, FrostDragoon said:

I think it did move in the right direction, just not far enough.

Indeed, but the benefit of doing this through mods/arcanes, as DE did, rather than buffing 300+ individual weapons, is that tweaking a dozen mods is FAR easier, affects EVERYTHING, and requires far less time from their team, so other jobs still get done.

It's easier for me to say "Hm, I need to buff up the Multishot across the board" and do so with ONE change to ONE mod rather than having to tweak all weapons individually.

Touch-and-go, trial-and-error is kinda DE's thing.  And it's worked for 8+ years, so... :/   I think we'll be fine, tbh ^_^

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38 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...but to that point, IF you're struggling to kill because ALL THE ENEMIES ARE DYING ALREADY, lol...  doesn't that mean that you buffing your weapons would be a moot point in that situation?

I don't think I phrased that very well.

Yes, in a scenario where nobody needs stacks, then it doesn't matter at all. I just don't think that's what DE was trying to address.

My problem with "on kill" effects is that if two or more people need stacks, then they're actively competing with each other to get them. And in cases where only one person needs stacks, other players can still "take" them from the person that needs them. Since the other players can get kills comfortably, they're probably building stacks they don't need (i.e., more overkill damage), which makes it increasingly harder for the person who needs the stacks to get them. It just strikes me as an unintuitive mechanic for co-op multiplayer games.

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