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Less melee nerfs and more reasons to use different weapons


quxier
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(spoilers about child - if don't know what I mean then it means you will be spoiled, be warned)

As person that loves melee it makes melees less interesting to play.

I understand changing some values (e.g. Condition overload has now smaller percentage). However making melee slow and clunky to play is not a way to solve problem of low usage of some weapons.

There is reasons why I would like to use melee in games:

- they have interesting moves

- they are very different from each other

- unique effects

- you have to think how to use them instead of point-and-click of guns (it's more motor skills which are nice as well)

Now the game has very few of those. Moving is very similar and doesn't add too much interesting options (moving & standing are the most prominent feature). There are few weapons with unique features but some of them are not good. Some of them are slow and break a game flow (e.g. Heavy attack of Arum spinosa is slow, even with mods and stops your movement). Some of them have limited usage of it (e.g. recent Exodia contagion nerf on number of "shoots"). And some of them doesn't work anymore (Amalgam furax mod - no knockdowns).

Even with such state I still prefer melees.

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To make me use non-melees it first need to work. For example Vermisplicer 2nd-ary doesn't work (no latching effect described in the wiki).

Then it has to be "nice" to use. Big reload time, fire rate effects it. Of course it's little subjective.

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Now that weapons (melee and non-melee) without issues described above we need to think why we are using weapon of our choice. After a weapon is strong enough it's matter of preference ("fun factor"). Removing fun from a weapon is a wrong way to make us use different weapon. We should have reason to use certain weapons but we should still be able to use our favorite.

Let's talk about Survival. You need to kill many enemies. You take a weapon (not including frames for simplicity) that can kill "enough" enemies. Whatever kills Heavy gunner should kill Butcher. So you don't need to change weapons. That's the issue. There should be difference between dealing with different enemies. Some weapons should be more suited for certain enemies while other should be suited for other enemies. For example a gun with slow fire rate but high damage can deal with few but strong enemies. On other hand high fire rate should have higher advantage over many weak enemies. This could be applied to melees as well. For example you have Kuva chakhurr to deal with Strong enemies and Lecta for dealing with weak & many enemies (wide attacks kills many enemies). Another example are Operators/Amps. You can use your weapons to deal with Sentients. You don't need to use Operator/Amp. It might be slower but it will be still possible to beat Sentient.

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Every Tenno can equip 3 weapons at the beginning of the game (primary, secondary and melee).

In addition we have:

- heavy weapon (arch-gun in normal combats, like primaries/secondaries)

- k-drive

- operator/amp

- exalted melees (like melees)

- exalted guns (Mesa, Titania, like primaries/secondaries)

- Mechs' guns (like guns)

- Mechs' melees (like melees)

 

In my opinion there should be at most 4 types of enemies. Mechs and Exalted weapons are just version of the same weapon (e.g. Titania, Voidrig's weapon and Grakata are just guns). We should be able to use all 3 version. Some may be weaker (e.g. Titania near Orphix could deal -20% damage) but they should still be usable.

 

At the moment we have, as fair I remember only Void weapon & Sentient combination.

We can have another two (mentioned above):

- very small amount but very strong enemies.

- huge amount of fast enemies but they are very weak

 

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Summary:

Distinction between enemies and most suited weapon combination should incentive players to use whole gear. It won't force anyone to use a weapon that that person doesn't like.

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

However making melee slow and clunky to play is not a way to solve problem of low usage of some weapons.

Berserker was the only thing changed by this. The difference in melee speed is SLIGHTLY lower than it was previously. You're still able to use Arcanes to boost attack speed. You're still able to boost speed with abilities. You're still able to stack the fury mod with the gladiator mod. 

 

The nerf to melee is a major improvement to the gameplay experience IMO. Melee feels slightly less overpowered but not so much so that it is useless. For a long time melee was ridiculously powerful and trivialized the game in a lot of ways.

 

I do agree that there should be some changes with enemy diversity but I'm going to beat this dead donkey over and over. The problem is with armor. The damage reduction from armor makes the game balance absurd. This needs to be addressed and I don't really understand why DE refuse to fix this. 

Damage reduction based on armor value is a terrible system. It makes some enemies far too tanky and other enemies far too easy. The entire Grineer faction is so tanky that literally every player builds their gear to target this faction because Corpus and Infested are simple by comparison. Armor for enemies should be set to a static value (say 75%) and health values can be adjusted to compensate. The fact that Grineer (and all armored targets FWIW) scale their damage reduction upwards of 95% creates an enormous disparity between factions. This is nowhere more evident than Grineer in Steel Path. 

For reference:

rohrdgo5e7951.png?width=640&crop=smart&a

 

I don't think any real productive change can be made to weapons until this is fixed. It is mind-boggling that they have not fixed this system yet. No one is saying make Grineer easier, We are saying fix the armor-scaling mechanics altogether so situations like this don't come up in the future.

I mean.. Corpus Techs have way more health than heavy gunners but because of the absurd armor scaling the EHP values are ridiculous. 11 million EHP for a steel path heavy gunner...

And the solution is to make weapons more overpowered... Good Idea DE. All of our weapons can effectively take out Infested and Corpus targets with decent modding. Grineer are the problem. It has been a problem for years. Go big-brain and fix armor to damage reduction scaling...

Edited by Leqesai
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54 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Berserker was the only thing changed by this. The difference in melee speed is SLIGHTLY lower than it was previously. You're still able to use Arcanes to boost attack speed. You're still able to boost speed with abilities. You're still able to stack the fury mod with the gladiator mod. 

 

The nerf to melee is a major improvement to the gameplay experience IMO. Melee feels slightly less overpowered but not so much so that it is useless. For a long time melee was ridiculously powerful and trivialized the game in a lot of ways.

 

I do agree that there should be some changes with enemy diversity but I'm going to beat this dead donkey over and over. The problem is with armor. The damage reduction from armor makes the game balance absurd. This needs to be addressed and I don't really understand why DE refuse to fix this. 

Damage reduction based on armor value is a terrible system. It makes some enemies far too tanky and other enemies far too easy. The entire Grineer faction is so tanky that literally every player builds their gear to target this faction because Corpus and Infested are simple by comparison. Armor for enemies should be set to a static value (say 75%) and health values can be adjusted to compensate. The fact that Grineer (and all armored targets FWIW) scale their damage reduction upwards of 95% creates an enormous disparity between factions. This is nowhere more evident than Grineer in Steel Path. 

For reference:

rohrdgo5e7951.png?width=640&crop=smart&a

 

I don't think any real productive change can be made to weapons until this is fixed. It is mind-boggling that they have not fixed this system yet. No one is saying make Grineer easier, We are saying fix the armor-scaling mechanics altogether so situations like this don't come up in the future.

I mean.. Corpus Techs have way more health than heavy gunners but because of the absurd armor scaling the EHP values are ridiculous. 11 million EHP for a steel path heavy gunner...

And the solution is to make weapons more overpowered... Good Idea DE. All of our weapons can effectively take out Infested and Corpus targets with decent modding. Grineer are the problem. It has been a problem for years. Go big-brain and fix armor to damage reduction scaling...

it never occurred to me just how bad SP made heavy gunners(i guess there's a reason my brother and I haven't touched it by much.) that's an absurd amount of tankiness.

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27 minutes ago, (XBOX)Orcus Imperium said:

it never occurred to me just how bad SP made heavy gunners(i guess there's a reason my brother and I haven't touched it by much.) that's an absurd amount of tankiness.

I believe the exact numbers are a little inaccurate but the ehp disparity between factions is enormous. Blows my mind they have fixed this yet.

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3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I believe the exact numbers are a little inaccurate but the ehp disparity between factions is enormous. Blows my mind they have fixed this yet.

The Star Chart caps out at level 45 and that's what DE balanced Damage 2.0 around. 

DE left armor unchecked because it was the only thing keeping up with unchecked player power and power creep sells.

A decently modded MK1 Braton can take care of Sortie level Corpus and Infested, but Grineer need something more. 

If armor scaling is multiplicative with health scaling, then just need to cram more multipliers onto weapons.

Need higher Crit Multipliers and Bleeds that ignore the enemy health multiplier called armor.

Fight Multiplication with Multiplication.

Just like how armored enemies lord over the unarmored with their extra ehp multiplier, Crit weapons have done the same to the Cri-t-ppled with their extra damage multiplier. 

 

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8 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The Star Chart caps out at level 45 and that's what DE balanced Damage 2.0 around.

Huh. I always thought that Star chart capped out at around 110ish.

Where did you learn that DE balanced damage 2.0 around 45?

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9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Berserker was the only thing changed by this. The difference in melee speed is SLIGHTLY lower than it was previously. You're still able to use Arcanes to boost attack speed. You're still able to boost speed with abilities. You're still able to stack the fury mod with the gladiator mod. 

I don't mean only Berseker nerf. For example Exodia contagion. Previous version could do 2 "shots" (bullet jump > shoot > jump > shoot). The Aerial Ace gives you additional jumps when you kill an enemy (I haven't tested it but it sounds good on paper). It had increased number of shots.

Now after the change you can only do one shot and you have to come back to ground if you want to continue shooting. That's much slower & it's clunkier.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Huh. I always thought that Star chart capped out at around 110ish.

Where did you learn that DE balanced damage 2.0 around 45?

It's roughly the point where a Bleed tic is about to outpace Puncture damage against Ferrite armor.

A level 45 Heavy Gunner has ~1888 Ferrite armor, or 86.29% DR.

Puncture damage has a +50% bonus, boosting damage by 1.5x and ignoring 50% of Ferrite armor value.

Puncture faces 75.9% DR, with a 1.5x, meaning it deals 36.2% of its starting value guaranteed on every hit.

A Bleed tic deals 35% of Base Damage as True damage with more RNG involved.

Corrosive with a +75% bonus deals 68% of its starting value.

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38 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

It's roughly the point where a Bleed tic is about to outpace Puncture damage against Ferrite armor.

A level 45 Heavy Gunner has ~1888 Ferrite armor, or 86.29% DR.

Puncture damage has a +50% bonus, boosting damage by 1.5x and ignoring 50% of Ferrite armor value.

Puncture faces 75.9% DR, with a 1.5x, meaning it deals 36.2% of its starting value guaranteed on every hit.

A Bleed tic deals 35% of Base Damage as True damage with more RNG involved.

Corrosive with a +75% bonus deals 68% of its starting value.

Huh. That’s mildly interesting. So a higher status build might go for slash, or a low-status might go for puncture?

 🤔 Bleed tics are kind of slow compared to some rapid-fire puncture. So… a tic may do about as much damage, but a more rapid-fire weapon may ultimately out-DPS it?

edit again: Doesn’t a Puncture proc do bonus damage? I feel like that was something I heard somewhere, but can’t for the life of me remember

What happens with a corrosive puncture weapon? I’m thinking the armour will be reduced via Corrosive, but the bonus damage from Puncture will still apply, which means…… I dunno what

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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50 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Huh. That’s mildly interesting. So a higher status build might go for slash, or a low-status might go for puncture?

 🤔 Bleed tics are kind of slow compared to some rapid-fire puncture. So… a tic may do about as much damage, but a more rapid-fire weapon may ultimately out-DPS it?

edit again: Doesn’t a Puncture proc do bonus damage? I feel like that was something I heard somewhere, but can’t for the life of me remember

What happens with a corrosive puncture weapon? I’m thinking the armour will be reduced via Corrosive, but the bonus damage from Puncture will still apply, which means…… I dunno what

Puncture proc only lowers enemy DPS. Puncture for the most part is just a gimped Corrosive.

On level 45 Heavy Gunners, a +120% Puncture mod on a weapon with 80% base puncture will deal an extra 35% of base damage per hit guaranteed.

Compare this to Hunter Munitions with 30% chance to deal Bleed proc that deals 35% of Base damage per tick for 7 ticks in 6 seconds on Crit.

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11 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Berserker was the only thing changed by this. The difference in melee speed is SLIGHTLY lower than it was previously. You're still able to use Arcanes to boost attack speed. You're still able to boost speed with abilities. You're still able to stack the fury mod with the gladiator mod. 

 

The nerf to melee is a major improvement to the gameplay experience IMO. Melee feels slightly less overpowered but not so much so that it is useless. For a long time melee was ridiculously powerful and trivialized the game in a lot of ways.

 

I do agree that there should be some changes with enemy diversity but I'm going to beat this dead donkey over and over. The problem is with armor. The damage reduction from armor makes the game balance absurd. This needs to be addressed and I don't really understand why DE refuse to fix this. 

Damage reduction based on armor value is a terrible system. It makes some enemies far too tanky and other enemies far too easy. The entire Grineer faction is so tanky that literally every player builds their gear to target this faction because Corpus and Infested are simple by comparison. Armor for enemies should be set to a static value (say 75%) and health values can be adjusted to compensate. The fact that Grineer (and all armored targets FWIW) scale their damage reduction upwards of 95% creates an enormous disparity between factions. This is nowhere more evident than Grineer in Steel Path. 

For reference:

rohrdgo5e7951.png?width=640&crop=smart&a

 

I don't think any real productive change can be made to weapons until this is fixed. It is mind-boggling that they have not fixed this system yet. No one is saying make Grineer easier, We are saying fix the armor-scaling mechanics altogether so situations like this don't come up in the future.

I mean.. Corpus Techs have way more health than heavy gunners but because of the absurd armor scaling the EHP values are ridiculous. 11 million EHP for a steel path heavy gunner...

And the solution is to make weapons more overpowered... Good Idea DE. All of our weapons can effectively take out Infested and Corpus targets with decent modding. Grineer are the problem. It has been a problem for years. Go big-brain and fix armor to damage reduction scaling...

A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.

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2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Puncture proc only lowers enemy DPS. Puncture for the most part is just a gimped Corrosive.

On level 45 Heavy Gunners, a +120% Puncture mod on a weapon with 80% base puncture will deal an extra 35% of base damage per hit guaranteed.

Compare this to Hunter Munitions with 30% chance to deal Bleed proc that deals 35% of Base damage per tick for 7 ticks in 6 seconds on Crit.

Cool cool. Not sure where I got the idea that Puncture procs did bonus damage.

What about a Corrosive + Puncture weapon? How would that fare against a Viral + Slash one? I don’t have access to the computer at the moment so I can’t test

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50 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What about a Corrosive + Puncture weapon? How would that fare against a Viral + Slash one?

True Damage that completely ignores armor and can be stacked will always outperform Corrosive+Puncture.

Just like how Toxin will always be better in every way than Magnetic simply because it bypasses shields completely.

Bypassing defenses > Overcoming them with raw damage.

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6 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Cool cool. Not sure where I got the idea that Puncture procs did bonus damage.

What about a Corrosive + Puncture weapon? How would that fare against a Viral + Slash one? I don’t have access to the computer at the moment so I can’t test

Puncture exists solely as a gimped version of Corrosive and has no synergy with Corrosive and before the Corrosive cap and the removal of 4xIPS priority, actively got in the way of getting Corrosive procs which is why -Puncture Rivens were so valuable. Puncture procs are so useless that the removal of 4xIPS priority was actually buff, while Slash procs are so good that it was a nerf. The only niche Puncture serves is that it isn't mutually exclusive with Viral like Corrosive usually is. 

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

True Damage that completely ignores armor and can be stacked will always outperform Corrosive+Puncture.

Just like how Toxin will always be better in every way than Magnetic simply because it bypasses shields completely.

Bypassing defenses > Overcoming them with raw damage.

That's only true for high levels.

Toxin simply bypasses Shields with no strings attached and scales with elemental damage mods. Bleed involves a lot of more RNG and doesn't scale with elemental damage mods though it does benefit from Viral procs.

Bleed deals 35% Base Damage as true damage per tick, for 245% over 6 seconds.

Raw damage only starts to lose out in KPS to Bleed when Damage Reduction reduces effective damage to be under 35% Base. Due to armor class modifiers double dipping with a multiplier and armor mitigation, raw Corrosive and Radiation don't quite fall off until Sortie 3 and Steel Path.

The other part of the equation is Viral. 

Viral due to its damage multiplying proc alone already competes with Corrosive and Radiation at low levels before even taking account its synergy with Bleed.

Corrosive + Viral is also strong combo for Steel Path but can't be built on most weapons and will fall off eventually in an endurance run compared to Viral+Bleed.

It should also be noted that Acolytes are Viral proc immune, have statuses capped at 4 and sport Ferrite armor. Outside a huge juicy forced Bleed proc from a melee, rapid fire weapons are better served with Corrosive unless you bring an armor strip ability.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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On 2021-07-22 at 10:43 AM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Corrosive + Viral

This is why Synapse is a single target Grineer melting machine. And also why Caustacyst is able to be effective longer than one would thing given its stats.

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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This is why Synapse is a single target Grineer melting machine. And also why Caustacyst is able to be effective longer than one would thing given its stats.

It's why the Tysis can shred Heavy Gunners with non-existent crit stats.

Viral + Bleed gets way more publicity than Corrosive + Viral simply because any primary weapon with decent Crit stats can run Hunter Munitions. 

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11 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

 

3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

 

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

 

On 2021-07-22 at 3:45 PM, Yrkul said:

 

On 2021-07-22 at 6:16 PM, Aldain said:

 

That's offtopic, please, go make another topic.

 

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10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

No, please don't make another topic about Synapse being underestimated.

OK, but please don't spam this topic about certain damage is bad or good or similar stuffs.

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