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With the poor state Yareli is after her release, and the fact that she's water-themed, I was hoping that more people would look towards Hydroid and his god-awful kit.


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4 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Frost is out of date. I don't care if you take me seriously or not. I'd love to see frost's 1 and 2 get some love but a lot of frames need love if we're looking at complete kits and synergies. The reason frost was put in my list is because i listed all the 'ice' using frames, and frost ended up at the top of my tier list.

Frost, I think, remains near low priority for revisit just because despite how absurdly outdated he is (you are definitely right about that, and how useless like half his kit is, etc. etc. And just so many other things, if you crutch hard on his 3/4 with the right builds, you can still godownface anything. 

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They said during tennocon they have no plans to rework anything and don't like doing it, because it doesn't show a spike in their metrics, unless you bring them to the top.

... which is how they players imagined it should be I think.

I don't know why some frames should be weak by design, or why certain frames like khora getting to CC everything, are handed special privileges.

My mentality is, items I don't like I don't invest in, grendal, lavos, yareli and so, frames I personally think flopped royally, I won't be buying skins for and also means less gameplay.

Meaning I'd just think the developers would want every frame to be popular to sell more.

Maybe their metrics show people are still buying packs and skins for lower ranked frames anyway, so from their perspective they have nothing to gain.

 

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7 hours ago, VenerealNidus said:

Why is no one talking about him? I remember how vocal Wukong players were before his rework, same for Ember, but no one is complaining about our resident pirate-frame.

I heard some excuse that he's not touched because of his niche use as a loot-frame, but he's bad at that as well, and is out-looted by every other frame with those capabilities.

He even got what I consider the best looking deluxe up to date, but his entire kit is still so abysmal that it sucks all the fun out of playing with him.

Are any of you also disappointed with his current state and would like him to be viable for any of the 'end-game' content? I know I could just put a bandaid on him in form of the Parasitic Armor or other abilities, but that's not the point of this thread. I would just like him to be great again on his own.

 

 

The answer you're looking for is at 27:53

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1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

 

 

The answer you're looking for is at 27:53

You really added a lot to this topic by repeating what other's have already stated and not adding anything else of value.

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5 minutes ago, VenerealNidus said:

You really added a lot to this topic by repeating what other's have already stated and not adding anything else of value.

You mean what others have paraphrased to varying degrees of success. Yes, it was something of a contribution. Unlike your reply here.

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sadly DE aren't planning on doing any reworks any time soon. a shame because I want Hydroid to be stronger too, and while his CC is ok, his damage is not up to scratch at all. since we also Have Yareli now, I propose a rework that makes Hydroid more of a dedicated Sea-Monster frame than a generic Water frame:

proposed rework:

Passive: enemies killed by Hydroid have a chance to drop 50% more loot.

- Barrage now has the augment as standard (Hydroid's "water" now has corrosive damage properties), has greater blast radius and damage and also leaves behind puddles which deal corrosive damage to enemies who step into them.

- Tidal Surge replaced with Kraken Summon: Hydroid quickly summons the kraken to target a specific area with water blasts and tentacle Grabs. water blasts deal impact and corrosive damage, while tentacle grabs hold enemies in place and crush them, dealing impact procs over time.

- Undertow is now an "exalted form" in which Hydroid can still remain as a puddle with his current functions, but moving automatically performs a tidal surge. the Curative Undertow Augment is also now standard, and also provides a corrosive damage boost to allies. Undertow drains energy over time, and casting Kraken Summon while in undertow causes the monster to fight defensively, protecting the Undertow area and anything in it with water blasts and tentacle grabs.

- Tentacle Swarm is now Kraken command; ever wanted to BE the kraken? now you can! Hydroid takes the form of his sea monster which uses an undertow puddle to move freely around as if swimming. whilst in his Kraken form, Hydroid cannot cast his other abilities, but the player now has access to other abilities like Sevagoth does, including:

- slicing tentacles: appendages with bone blades that can cut through enemies: press melee to use them and inflict heavy slash damage on enemies in a wide sweeping arc.

- crushing Tentacles: appendages which on command, will pick up enemeis, crush them, and then slam them forcefully into the ground, both crush and slam dealign high amounts of impact damage.

- water harpoons: Kraken vomits harpoons made of Hydroid's corrosive water; these fat projectiles deal both corrosive and puncture damage, and are freely aimed by the player, then shot instantly on ability cast. 

IMO, Yareli can keep the water themes: I want Hydroid to be converted to a sea monster commander that melts armor and has pirate swag. 

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)Blu627 said:

Is Yareli really that bad?  I can't imagine it being more disappointing then the train wreck of a quest you need to do to get her.

Her passive is good and her 1 is decent crowd control.  Everything else is just bad. 

 

Her 2, Merulina, might look cool, and yeah, you can go fast on it, but this game just wasn't built for it.  Even the newer tilesets have a lot of areas where you're going to get hung up, stuck, or fall through the floor and glitch out.  Also, the DR it provides cannot be modded.  It's a flat 75%, which helps, but is outclassed by others and decidedly not enough to be worth the trouble of navigating tight corridors on a K Drive.

 

Her 3 does virtually no damage and has piddling range.

 

Her 4 doesn't scale.  It will perform okay for a while, and then fall off.  You'll get some use out of it, even in sorties, but it's not going to do very well in content above that level.

 

Yareli is the worst warframe release I can think of (disclosure: I've been playing since Limbo Prime access).  Even buttwidow might have been better on launch, if mechs count for comparisons.  But both were pushed out into the world when better alternatives already existed.  Buttwidow has her place now that DE nerfed healing mechs.  I still don't bother with her, but some love her.  Maybe Yareli will be changed to be effective.  Or maybe she already counts as old content and DE won't spare the resources on her when it's all hands on deck for the New War.

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to add to how bad Yareli is.
Her 2 the jellyfish k-drive allows Yareli to cast while moving, which might be a redeeming factor.
If it weren't for the fact that DE disabled all Helminth abilities on Merulina.
Lol you can't even helminth her bad abilities off.

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4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'd love a revisit for Hydroid still, as he is one of the few I think actually needs it.

I don't disagree with your stance.

I do question how it could get done, retain it's unique flavor, and keep it's skills reasonably intact without burdening the art/coders.

My feeling is that if it's an idea or symmetry that's fresh it will get added to a different frame now.

Kinda like the shatter mechanic that was begged for by Frost players but got added to Gauss instead.

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1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

I do question how it could get done, retain it's unique flavor, and keep it's skills reasonably intact without burdening the art/coders.

Well his 1 could be a circle that prioritizes shooting at enemies in it instead of just random falling explosions.

You could make his 2 "pool" the enemies at his feet at the end of the dash instead of launch them across the room (or imo, replace it with something else).

Undertow could retain the current functions with the added function of aiming causing him to pop out to shoot at enemies so he isn't just a puddle on the floor.

Lastly his 4 could not flail the enemies around wildly and instead just grab/lift and hold/crush them.

His passive I have no idea on, but honestly "chance of ground slam tentacle" isn't that good imo, better than Heavy Impact or Frost's...melee hit freeze chance, but nothing to write home about.

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I'd like to see more emphasis on him as a pirate than as a water frame.

Passive: Apply grog to his blade (guaranteed toxin proc for melee attacks)

1: Change the water balls to grapeshot, cold -> impact for direct hits and blast proc for the explosions

2: Pilfer - AoE around him that causes all enemies, lockers, containers, etc to drop extra loot. Not a damage ability, just a "debuff" of sorts.

3: Move his hentacles here instead of his 4, no further need for the augment mod since new 2 exists

4: Broadside - He calls on his ship to barrage an area with large cannonballs that explode into grapeshot (actually copied instances of his 1), where the cannonball explosions produce corrosive procs

 

Then the setup looks something like, cast 2, cast 3, cast 4 for big mobs/aoe. For regular run and gun, he relies more on his passive and 1 while still using 2 at opportune moments of larger groups or priority targets.

Edited by FrostDragoon
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23 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Well his 1 could be a circle that prioritizes shooting at enemies in it instead of just random falling explosions.

You could make his 2 "pool" the enemies at his feet at the end of the dash instead of launch them across the room (or imo, replace it with something else).

Undertow could retain the current functions with the added function of aiming causing him to pop out to shoot at enemies so he isn't just a puddle on the floor.

Lastly his 4 could not flail the enemies around wildly and instead just grab/lift and hold/crush them.

His passive I have no idea on, but honestly "chance of ground slam tentacle" isn't that good imo, better than Heavy Impact or Frost's...melee hit freeze chance, but nothing to write home about.

Yeah, that didn't address any of my concerns...

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14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yeah, that didn't address any of my concerns...

I mean the suggestions were designed to retain the core functions without intensive reworking or redesigning, which would have been low-impact on the devs while also fixing some of the core issues with each ability and adding in some new functions to make him more team and solo friendly.

The Undertow changes in particular being something no other Warframe has access to, the ability to have cover even in an empty room between volleys of attacks.

But I'm not a developer, those are just the first and most simple but also impactful changes that could realistically be implemented in a short time to give Hydroid a boost from his current state.

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Water powers/hydrokinesis is just cursed in video games I guess. u.u It's my favorite element and the most versitile of them all, practically capable of damn near anything including just straight up splattering someone from the inside out like detonating a bomb. But for some reason it's doomed to be poorly designed by everyone and neglected forever; like Hydroid.

 

Edited by Wolfdoggie
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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I mean the suggestions were designed to retain the core functions without intensive reworking or redesigning, which would have been low-impact on the devs while also fixing some of the core issues with each ability and adding in some new functions to make him more team and solo friendly.

The Undertow changes in particular being something no other Warframe has access to, the ability to have cover even in an empty room between volleys of attacks.

But I'm not a developer, those are just the first and most simple but also impactful changes that could realistically be implemented in a short time to give Hydroid a boost from his current state.

I hear ya. It's still not addressing my concerns (imo) though...

Turning barrage into an aimbot ability sounds nifty but skirts the nature of Hydroid being a ranged CC melee fighter. (flavor) Neither are either of your proposals for Surge (also flavor...we have a number of frames with the ability you described already to varying degrees)

And most especially not Undertow given that they don't want you to have an ability that both avoids damage, evades detection, herds and incapacitates, can heal, and does super slow damage to allow for ranged attacks too.

Truthfully, Undertow is the biggest trap in the game because people read what it does, think it's awesome, and get annoyed when it actually isn't  fun or efficent in practice.

Hydroid's kit probably has one of the higher skill ceilings in the game so people call it horrible when in truth what makes it horrible is the fact that all that skill only lets it semi- measure up to other frames achieving the same things (and more) with less work.

I don't see anything substantial being done on Hydroid until they change their minds on his design philosophy and I just don't see them doing that without opting to build a new frame with it instead.

you are, of course, welcome to your opinions on the matter though.

 

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7 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Frost is out of date. I don't care if you take me seriously or not. I'd love to see frost's 1 and 2 get some love but a lot of frames need love if we're looking at complete kits and synergies. The reason frost was put in my list is because i listed all the 'ice' using frames, and frost ended up at the top of my tier list.

"Out of date" means nothing if the frame is still great.

- His 1 is one of the BEST projectile abilities, providing a strong slow AOE effect while freezing enemies, is quick to launch and doesn't need to actually hit enemies to be effective. The bubble burst is an even better reason to love his 1. This does not need changing.

- His 2 controls the entire room when you equip the augment but it does great on its own as well. It doubles as DR and CC (since barely moving enemies do little harm), it has a 12+ second linger time and range mods effect both distance and width enough to splash a huge chunk of the room (and the next) in less than 2 seconds. The only change I would add is to make the augment an actual part of the base ability. 

His 3 not provides the trademark protection but triples as a true damage dealer and a guaranteed freeze proc when recasted, making it one of the strongest abilities in the game when used in tight tilesets (aka most of the game). And while, yes, it is less effective than Gara's 4 due to enemies being able to walk into it, the slow effect still holds its own and, like I said, recasting makes every entered enemy instantly regret that decision.

His 4 is just beast. Armor strip, frozen enemies, a protection augment...nothing needs changing.

Frost is a warframe that will never leave top tier. He just has too many good setups and is as timeless as the Excals. If they actually do decide to touch him, it needs to be very minor like perhaps allowing his bubble to be friendly fire friendly and his ice wave inheriting its impedence augment mod. That's it...IMO.

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1 minute ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Frost is a warframe that will never leave top tier. He just has too many good setups and is as timeless as the Excals.

Except for his passive, which is...just...why?

Like seriously, I can understand why Frost isn't really in need of anything (though it wouldn't hurt either), but his passive is Rhino-tier bad, if only because it requires you to get hit by a melee unit, which barely exist unless you've got a Baruuk or Loki running around.

If I had to choose one insignificant thing to get DE to do an overhaul on, it would be several old Warframe passives.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

"Out of date" means nothing if the frame is still great.

- His 1 is one of the BEST projectile abilities, providing a strong slow AOE effect while freezing enemies, is quick to launch and doesn't need to actually hit enemies to be effective. The bubble burst is an even better reason to love his 1. This does not need changing.

- His 2 controls the entire room when you equip the augment but it does great on its own as well. It doubles as DR and CC (since barely moving enemies do little harm), it has a 12+ second linger time and range mods effect both distance and width enough to splash a huge chunk of the room (and the next) in less than 2 seconds. The only change I would add is to make the augment an actual part of the base ability. 

His 3 not provides the trademark protection but triples as a true damage dealer and a guaranteed freeze proc when recasted, making it one of the strongest abilities in the game when used in tight tilesets (aka most of the game). And while, yes, it is less effective than Gara's 4 due to enemies being able to walk into it, the slow effect still holds its own and, like I said, recasting makes every entered enemy instantly regret that decision.

His 4 is just beast. Armor strip, frozen enemies, a protection augment...nothing needs changing.

Frost is a warframe that will never leave top tier. He just has too many good setups and is as timeless as the Excals. If they actually do decide to touch him, it needs to be very minor like perhaps allowing his bubble to be friendly fire friendly and his ice wave inheriting its impedence augment mod. That's it...IMO.

I can tell you're a true fan of this frame, as I am, but I do think you're being a bit blind to his weaknesses. Several of which have been discussed in this thread already. What I'm hoping this thread will accomplish is to find some common ground that most people can agree with to make some reasonable adjustments (help this frame) in order for him to see the play he deserves. That can't happen if we can't objectively admit to both his strengths and weaknesses.

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3 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I can tell you're a true fan of this frame, as I am, but I do think you're being a bit blind to his weaknesses. Several of which have been discussed in this thread already. What I'm hoping this thread will accomplish is to find some common ground that most people can agree with to make some reasonable adjustments (help this frame) in order for him to see the play he deserves. That can't happen if we can't objectively admit to both his strengths and weaknesses.

......fine. Fine, fine FINE!! GRRRR!!

😂

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15 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

......fine. Fine, fine FINE!! GRRRR!!

😂

FWIW, I'm hoping these adjustments can be somewhat subtle instead of Ember tier, identity-crushing, no-way-to-optimize-stats level of rework.

 

Edit:
I just realized you and I posted this in the Yareli topic instead of the Frost topic I made. Derp. I want to see Frost touched up to be great. Yareli is trash tier and her "identity" can't be salvaged because it was poorly conceived in the first place.

Edited by FrostDragoon
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4 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

I don't know what to do with her K-drive. Has no use in normal mission and gets stuck everywhere. Her other 3 abilities are just ok-ish.

Many of us tried to tell DE before she was released that it was a bad idea. Here we are.

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8 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

I don't know what to do with her K-drive. Has no use in normal mission and gets stuck everywhere. Her other 3 abilities are just ok-ish.

And real K Drives are better in the open world due to them being moddable.  They don't provide the DR, but there are mods for (fleeting) invincibility and other useful effects.

 

Archwing > Void Dash > K Drive > Merulina, I guess.

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