Anyone else think it is time for "Enemy Damage 2.0"?

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

No one (at least not many) was complaining about pre-SP levels of enemy damage being too easy though.

Before Steel Path came out, they were.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Before Steel Path came out, they were.

Got some forum posts or other media to show that?

[Aldain]

23 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

People complained the game was too easy and asked for Steel Path. They got it. Now they complain it's too hard so they have to resort to cheese mechanics.

Implying that these are the same people in both groups

24 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Then if/when something gets done to make it so your average player can clear Steel Path without learning the game (like all the other content), they will complain it's too easy again. You're on step 2.

Implying that I am one of those people in either group.

As a heads up, I don't care about Steel Path, I'm too lazy to do the last few Defection nodes to clear the star chart out due to my burning hatred of them.

I want the game to make sense, I want there to be less of a REASON to always default to the cheese tactics simply out of frustration rather than difficulty.

But most of all, I'd like the game to land somewhere between "snooze fest" and "everything kills you in 2 hits", something that Liches/Sisters theoretically should fill, but winds up being the same "turn everything off because otherwise it is a hot mess" situation as anything past the basic star chart.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Got some forum posts or other media to show that?

I could, but I honestly can't be bothered to looking through these things from years ago. You could easily find these yourself if you really care to know. It's all there. Plenty of people were complaining about the game generally being too easy, especially between the time Adaptation released and Steel Path.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Implying that these are the same people in both groups

Not always, sure, but I would look through some of Brozime's older clips when he complains about content drought, then compare to other content creators of that period.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

I could, but I honestly can't be bothered to looking through these things from years ago. You could easily find these yourself if you really care to know. It's all there. Plenty of people were complaining about the game generally being too easy, especially between the time Adaptation released and Steel Path.

So you don't want to back up your claims 😒. And the point wasn't that the game was generally easy, but that enemy damage was too easy.

[Loza03]

@Aldain @FrostDragoon

Both balance and fun are equally important, because they blend into each other.

Designing for fun means trying new things, innovating and all that. But it's useless if the systems implemented wind up as 'red herring mechanics' because there's no design space for them due to poor balance. Like, did you know you can now hack the turrets in Corpus Railjack? Now that you know this information, are you ever going to do that?

 

For example, consider Sniper Rifles. Sniper Rifles are typically leveraged as either Assassin weapons or some kind of 'Power' Weapon. Generally, they're best used either as a 'get out of a combat encounter free' card (how it's used in Halo's Campaign for example) or as a tool for eliminating high-priority targets such as healers or bosses (such as in Deep Rock Galactic or TF2's Mann vs Machine). In Warframe, the former isn't reasonable due to being largely in enclosed spaces, so it needs to serve the second role. However, because regular enemies are so trivial to fight, and because many bosses have the Adaptive Damage resistance mechanics, they also can't play this role.

In other words, snipers aren't fun to use because they have no place. You can't design them for fun because you didn't design the rest of the game for balance.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Implying that I am one of those people in either group.

As a heads up, I don't care about Steel Path, I'm too lazy to do the last few Defection nodes to clear the star chart out due to my burning hatred of them.

I want the game to make sense, I want there to be less of a REASON to always default to the cheese tactics simply out of frustration rather than difficulty.

But most of all, I'd like the game to land somewhere between "snooze fest" and "everything kills you in 2 hits", something that Liches/Sisters theoretically should fill, but winds up being the same "turn everything off because otherwise it is a hot mess" situation as anything past the basic star chart.

Don't misunderstand. I actually do understand where you're coming from. It's just that you're asking the impossible and don't realize it. It's the same reason everything has to be curbed down to almost nothing to make PvP usable for that community. The game's fundamental design isn't about balance--it's about fantasy. This is why they push for cool themes, gimmicks, and interactions. The balance considerations are very much an afterthought, and only ever get remotely addressed when people cry too much. The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what balance should look like, so it's impossible for DE to win. For some players, the current challenge is perfect. For others it's too hard or too easy. That's the point.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So you don't want to back up your claims 😒. And the point wasn't that the game was generally easy, but that enemy damage was too easy.

Like I said, if you're sincere in wanting to know if it's true, you could find it yourself. It's just not worth the effort to provide myself, especially since I think you're only asking to make a claim that it's untrue--to feel like you're right. It's just as much out of my own laziness as it is an honesty test for you.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

Like I said, if you're sincere in wanting to know if it's true, you could find it yourself. It's just not worth the effort to provide myself, especially since I think you're only asking to make a claim that it's untrue--to feel like you're right. It's just as much out of my own laziness as it is an honesty test for you.

Well here's your honesty test results: I get posts that are the opposite of what you claim

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1131456-enemy-damage-scaling-is-the-problem/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1115433-does-enemy-damage-really-need-to-scale-infinitely/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1064378-enemy-damage-and-resistance-basescaling/

[Sazero]

Another day, another balance thread.
To make a repeating story short: It's not gonna happen, there is too much work involved.
And Warframe isn't a MOBA, so balance isn't required to begin with.
 

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

For example, consider Sniper Rifles. Sniper Rifles are typically leveraged as either Assassin weapons or some kind of 'Power' Weapon. Generally, they're best used either as a 'get out of a combat encounter free' card (how it's used in Halo's Campaign for example) or as a tool for eliminating high-priority targets such as healers or bosses (such as in Deep Rock Galactic or TF2's Mann vs Machine). In Warframe, the former isn't reasonable due to being largely in enclosed spaces, so it needs to serve the second role. However, because regular enemies are so trivial to fight, and because many bosses have the Adaptive Damage resistance mechanics, they also can't play this role.

In other words, snipers aren't fun to use because they have no place. You can't design them for fun because you didn't design the rest of the game for balance.

I don't know if you've played long enough to know this, but nullifiers originally didn't have that floating drone above them for the shield. They were added so that slow rate of fire weapons, like sniper rifles, could deal with them. It seems to me that you're conflating mechanical balance with numerical. They are related, but still distinct. Warframe has never had a state where players felt any consensus that the numerical balance made sense. Usually the changes that get through are on the mechanical side. Exceptions exist, but it's been a long time since we've seen patch notes focused on the numerical side of things that remotely approaches the upcoming notes for Path of Exile's new league, for example.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, Sazero said:

Another day, another balance thread.
To make a repeating story short: It's not gonna happen, there is too much work involved.
And Warframe isn't a MOBA, so balance isn't required to begin with.

The fact that people are constantly asking for balance is proof that balance is needed, because when a large amount of players are complaining, a large amount of players aren't having fun with the game.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Well here's your honesty test results: I get posts that are the opposite of what you claim

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1131456-enemy-damage-scaling-is-the-problem/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1115433-does-enemy-damage-really-need-to-scale-infinitely/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1064378-enemy-damage-and-resistance-basescaling/

You've failed the honesty test by deliberately cherry-picking results that answer a different question than the one asked. I think you've made it clear that I was right to skip doing the leg work for you, because you're acting in bad faith.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The game's fundamental design isn't about balance--it's about fantasy. This is why they push for cool themes, gimmicks, and interactions.

Themes, Gimmicks and Mechanics that the vast portion of the playerbase are quick to abandon the moment they aren't just new fantasy power creep.

Notice Yareli, cool concept of K-drives in regular missions, almost no actual support because it doesn't provide near perfect defenses like some other frames and the rest of her abilities are nothing to write home about.

That is the problem of fantasy over balance, the fantasy is either hilariously gamebreaking (Limbo's Stasis) or niche and quickly forgotten because it can't compete with anything else.

You can't have a good fantasy without balance, otherwise only the uppermost effective end is worth using and anything else is left in squalor.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

The fact that people are constantly asking for balance is proof that balance is needed, because when a large amount of players are complaining, a large amount of players aren't having fun with the game.

This actually isn't proof of anything.

Players do it because it's an accepted expectation across a huge number of games. They will always do it no matter what devs do about it, because something that is "fine" for one person is "OP" to another and is "underperforming" to yet another. Warframe aims to have some level of it, but doesn't care to achieve "perfect balance" or anything remotely close to it. Players insisting that this game ever could don't understand this game and will contribute to its failure. This is why I referred to the endless death spiral earlier. That's all these threads ever accomplish, regardless of game.

[Aldain]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Like, did you know you can now hack the turrets in Corpus Railjack? Now that you know this information, are you ever going to do that?

Also, not to double post but, which turrets?

I honestly didn't even know there were hackable turrets anywhere in Corpus Railjack.

[Sazero]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

The fact that people are constantly asking for balance is proof that balance is needed, because when a large amount of players are complaining, a large amount of players aren't having fun with the game.

Some people might be complaining but that doesn't mean it's a large amount of players.
Vocal minorities exist.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Themes, Gimmicks and Mechanics that the vast portion of the playerbase are quick to abandon the moment they aren't just new fantasy power creep.

Notice Yareli, cool concept of K-drives in regular missions, almost no actual support because it doesn't provide near perfect defenses like some other frames and the rest of her abilities are nothing to write home about.

That is the problem of fantasy over balance, the fantasy is either hilariously gamebreaking (Limbo's Stasis) or niche and quickly forgotten because it can't compete with anything else.

You can't have a good fantasy without balance, otherwise only the uppermost effective end is worth using and anything else is left in squalor.

I agree there's a paradox that exists here. You can't have it perfectly balanced, but people won't accept something that is clearly too weak either. However, Yareli isn't the example I would choose because discussions of her will always be tainted by the stupidity of putting K-Drive into regular missions. Instead, I would point to Hydroid as the example of something with an interesting fantasy that clearly isn't strong enough for most players' standards.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

You've failed the honesty test by deliberately cherry-picking results that answer a different question than the one asked. I think you've made it clear that I was right to skip doing the leg work for you, because you're acting in bad faith.

Lulwhat. The claim:


Those are the first relevant results when I search. All have to do with enemy damage being too high in some fashion.



Skipping leg day is never a good idea.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Lulwhat. The claim:


Those are the first relevant results when I search. All have to do with enemy damage being too high in some fashion.



Skipping leg day is never a good idea.

Look how recent most of those results are. Adaptation nullified enemy threat for the most part until Steel Path came out. Search harder, and be more specific. Your search was even lazier than my refusal to do it for you.

 

Edit:
You might start by searching for the things that lead to Steel Path making it into the game in the first place.

[Sazero]

Looks like there is a complain thread once every year.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Sazero said:

Looks like there is a complain thread once every year.

Oh, believe me. It's sickeningly more common than that. Vast majority of threads on game forums are complaints in some form or other, especially in the "Feedback" sections.

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I don't know if you've played long enough to know this, but nullifiers originally didn't have that floating drone above them for the shield. They were added so that slow rate of fire weapons, like sniper rifles, could deal with them. It seems to me that you're conflating mechanical balance with numerical. They are related, but still distinct. Warframe has never had a state where players felt any consensus that the numerical balance made sense. Usually the changes that get through are on the mechanical side. Exceptions exist, but it's been a long time since we've seen patch notes focused on the numerical side of things that remotely approaches the upcoming notes for Path of Exile's new league, for example.

They're distinct yes, but they're related closely enough that they usually rely on each other. As evidenced by the fact that the Sniper Rifle's mechanical balance is affected by its numerical balance in both cases. Notably, that armour's bad numbers are a major factor as to why snipers have no role (as it means AoE weapons need the ability to bypass enemy defences, rather than being able to lean on the innate multiplier that being an AoE weapon is), and that snipers are terrible against bosses because they have huge damage resistance only against large, single hits. Armour isn't a mechanical characteristic, neither is damage reduction, but they impact the mechanical function of weapons.

12 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Also, not to double post but, which turrets?

I honestly didn't even know there were hackable turrets anywhere in Corpus Railjack.

In the 'tactical screen'  you can see turret symbols in red when in the Corpus Cruiser segments. Click on them to trigger the hack. There's also some locked doors too, apparently.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

In the 'tactical screen'  you can see turret symbols in red when in the Corpus Cruiser segments. Click on them to trigger the hack. There's also some locked doors too, apparently.

Huh...would have been nice if DE had even remotely explained that function...or mentioned it existed at all.

Guess I've got something new to try out.