Anyone else think it is time for "Enemy Damage 2.0"?

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Congrats, you picked the wrong post.

My first response to you:

And? You're still missing the point.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...And the thread is derailed beyond all repair.

Guess it is partly my fault though.

If it's any consolation, I can give you a sheet of most Grineer's base damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sS0OYvBXBkAsUGnlnBzyCA6GSTvLYfQzXka1plH7kxg/edit?usp=sharing

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

And? You're still missing the point.

More like you are. My point: Where is the evidence of people complaining damage was too low pre-SP.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

More like you are. My point: Where is the evidence of people complaining damage was too low pre-SP.

In the threads asking for it, like I already said.

[CatboyPrincess]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

But I have. I've searched for the original point. Do I have to post another screenshot of the original claim?

looks like the og claim was that SP was created because regular start chart content was too easy. That's mostly true. SP was created for a few reasons:

1. Regular Star Chart content started at a much lower level than hardcore players were interested in.

2. Hardcore players wanted a mission format like NG+ (new game plus) in soulsborne games for better access to continually scaling content.

3. Some casual players wanted a mode wherein enemies would take a few extra shots to kill, presumably to fulfill part of their fantasy.

 

FrostDragoon has already posted their original claims, but they've missed some of the nuance that existed in the original discussions.

 

I supported a mechanism for NG+, and ultimately, SP has... failed to deliver!!

 

The cycles of nerfs and buffs is actually a symptom of a deeper, twofold problem. Difficulty gated content, and accessibility to content.

 

Some of the original proposals for NG+ content did not ask for NG+ gated content; the motivations therein were for access to arbitrarily difficult content, which is a way for optimizers to have fun with a specific context.

The continued appeal for multiple hour runs is to perform performance checks on builds, and for these players, the goal is a high score based on the level of enemy their build can take on. However, the necessary time sink of spending hours in endless mission types was annoying. Keep in mindkind, this problem still exists after SP, because there is still no way to access an arbitrary starting mission level.

 

Difficulty gated gameplay rewards is its own problem. Most players want to be able to try out tools and game mechanics regardless of skill level. Difficulty gated gameplayolay rewards is antithetical to this. "gameplay rewards" here is distinguishable from "trophies". "gameplay rewards" can be brought back from difficult content to gameplay effect, trophies can't.

Difficulty seeker players don't specifically care for difficulty gated gameplay rewards because they aren't A******s. The challenge is its own reward. (Though a scaling resource bonus or trophy is "nice to have")

 

So SP was only a (failed) bandaid solution, as you can see. It has added only one more layer of difficulty, and so failed optimizers and hardcore players, and it managed to add another layer of difficulty gated gameplay reward, which is a potentially toxic precedent, that many difficulty seekers dont actually care for.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

If it's any consolation, I can give you a sheet of most Grineer's base damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sS0OYvBXBkAsUGnlnBzyCA6GSTvLYfQzXka1plH7kxg/edit?usp=sharing

Those are surprisingly low base values...good lord what must the scaling calculations do to make level 70-100 enemies in Lich missions be able to chunk a 1,035 armor Umbra?

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

FrostDragoon has already posted their original claims, but they've missed some of the nuance that existed in the original discussions.

That's a fair criticism, but you at least know what I'm talking about.

  

4 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

So SP was only a (failed) bandaid solution, as you can see. It has added only one more layer of difficulty, and so failed optimizers and hardcore players, and it managed to add another layer of difficulty gated gameplay reward, which is a potentially toxic precedent, that many difficulty seekers dont actually care for.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I meant to earlier, but forgot.

Give the historical patterns and cycles of game development and community feedback (not just in Warframe, but gaming in general), I saw the Galvanized mods as a step on this path to make SP the "normal" or "default" or "real" content of the game rather than just optional, more challenging content. Nobody should be surprised by this, but it does go back to what I said in the original post I made in this thread about the nerf/buff cycles and how players will never be satisfied.

In the end another damage rework can't solve this for reasons I stated in another post.

  

50 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The problem of scaling is, well... scaling.

If the endless modes have enemies continually scale upward (represented by their level increase), then something has to scale with them. This is supposed to force players out of the mission eventually. Cheese mechanics undermine this, but don't change its purpose.

If we are supposed to have some kind of balance between regular star chart and these deep level increases in endless modes, then what do enemy levels even mean and how can this possibly be achieved? So far, I have never seen one plausible answer that didn't carry enormous numbers of drawbacks or that didn't violate the idea of what enemy scaling is supposed to do. Hence the differences between mechanical and numerical "balance."

Given how scaling works, it doesn't matter how many people complain--nor how often or loudly--this concept of "balance" is impossible. The balance that exists in the game right now is and always was a function of the base equipment you bring to the mission multiplied by whatever power modifiers you can stack (mods, abilities, pets, gear wheel, etc) and divided by the n-power scaling of enemies over time. This obviously excludes mechanical cheese that can ignore the numerical side of this. When this function reaches a value of less than 1, players are on the clock to either push until failure (when the function reaches 0) or extract.

This is why reworking the damage system can't solve this issue. You are only changing the inputs, not the overall function.

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

In the threads asking for it, like I already said.

"Where is the needle?" asked Frog.
"In the haystack" said Toad.

Cool, now where are the threads. A direct link helps.
 

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Those are surprisingly low base values...good lord what must the scaling calculations do to make level 70-100 enemies in Lich missions be able to chunk a 1,035 armor Umbra?

Level 100 is a ~16-20x damage multiplier. But those are per hit values. Your Elite Lancer is shooting with a fire rate of 10 or so, and shotguns are shooting multiple pellets.
 

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

looks like the og claim was that SP was created because regular start chart content was too easy. That's mostly true.

My conversation kicked off with me saying that I didn't see people complaining about enemy damage being too low pre-SP, not the general claim that Starchart was too easy in general.

[CatboyPrincess]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

That's a fair criticism, but you at least know what I'm talking about.

  

I'm glad you brought this up, because I meant to earlier, but forgot.

Give the historical patterns and cycles of game development and community feedback (not just in Warframe, but gaming in general), I saw the Galvanized mods as a step on this path to make SP the "normal" or "default" or "real" content of the game rather than just optional, more challenging content. Nobody should be surprised by this, but it does go back to what I said in the original post I made in this thread about the nerf/buff cycles and how players will never be satisfied.

In the end another damage rework can't solve this for reasons I stated in another post.

  

 

To avoid the loop, you need a dev who has a clear vision and clear boundaries.

"Games as a service" as a model is... basically antithetical to that :D (for better or worse...)

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Level 100 is a ~16-20x damage multiplier. But those are per hit values. Your Elite Lancer is shooting with a fire rate of 10 or so, and shotguns are shooting multiple pellets.

Corpus shotguns in particular are especially scary. I don't know if it's because the enemies that carry them are so common or if they just have a damage type that is more effective than the Grineer ones, though.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

I would actually prefer enemy damage: 0.5

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Level 100 is a ~16-20x damage multiplier. But those are per hit values. Your Elite Lancer is shooting with a fire rate of 10 or so, and shotguns are shooting multiple pellets.

Hm I wonder if there are any extra multipliers added for Lich/Sister missions specifically...or more specifically the Railjack assassinate mission they end on.

The final showdown was where it was the worst for my Sister, and she was only at level 3, perhaps there is even more math under the hood for those that is breaking it further.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

To avoid the loop, you need a dev who has a clear vision and clear boundaries.

"Games as a service" as a model is... basically antithetical to that :D (for better or worse...)

Agreed. One of the difficulties with "balance" feedback is that it's never actually clear what someone means when they talk about it. Aside from the subjective preferences of what should be how strong and for whom, you also just have a basic issue of undefined terms in most cases. How is anyone (in development) supposed to make use of that kind of feedback without stepping on the toes of others with completely different (and just as arbitrary) definitions and preferences?

[(NSW)Greybones]

9 hours ago, Aldain said:

Constantly having to be on the move to dodge bullets is all well and good, but this winds up at odds with some parts of the game, namely precise aiming for most ranged weapons, I don't care how good you are, landing headshots while bouncing around the room like a pinball to avoid is something most human beings can not do.

Mildly off-topic (sorry), definitely gonna read through the rest of this thread, but just wanted to... not feel like a superhuman, haha.

Usually I use aimglide or very briefly wall-latch to give me that brief moment to line up the headshot. As long as a player isn't directly in the midst of the fight, it's a good chance to get a few shots off and then decide what to do next based on where they end up (position-wise and health-wise) after flying through the air.

edit: Hipfire also works surprisingly well at times for precision weapons

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mildly off-topic (sorry), definitely gonna read through the rest of this thread, but just wanted to... not feel like a superhuman, haha.

Usually I use aimglide or very briefly wall-latch to give me that brief moment to line up the headshot. As long as a player isn't directly in the midst of the fight, it's a good chance to get a few shots off and then decide what to do next based on where they end up (position-wise and health-wise) after flying through the air.

edit: Hipfire also works surprisingly well at times for precision weapons

I've played for years as Lex P for my favored "comfort pick" secondary. Your weapon choice informs your play. Use precision weapons a lot and you will naturally get better over time. Use huge splash aoe weapons and you might forget how to aim (exaggerating a little). I can totally see why this mobility might work against their aim, but practice/training can overcome this. The question comes down to if that mobility is enough to keep you safe. I think many players find it's not enough, so they favor frames that are inherently strong in tankiness/sustain, CC, or invisibility as these allow you to play less frantically and keep your aim on point.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Hm I wonder if there are any extra multipliers added for Lich/Sister missions specifically...or more specifically the Railjack assassinate mission they end on.

The final showdown was where it was the worst for my Sister, and she was only at level 3, perhaps there is even more math under the hood for those that is breaking it further.

I don't know what level rank 3 final confrontation Lich/Sister is (I think its 60-70?), so I'll just use lvl 70. Gyre Elite Lancer does 49 x [1 + 0.015 x (70 - 15)^1.55] = 415 damage. Their Quartakk shoots an instant burst of 4, so 1660 damage. And then you need to account for the fact that each pellet has 19% CC and 2.3x CD. So 1660 is the minimum damage. It could potentially go up to 3818 damage.

I don't have values for Corpus RJ unit's damage right now, but I'd assume they have high base damage values too.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Usually I use aimglide or very briefly wall-latch to give me that brief moment to line up the headshot. As long as a player isn't directly in the midst of the fight, it's a good chance to get a few shots off and then decide what to do next based on where they end up (position-wise and health-wise) after flying through the air.

edit: Hipfire also works surprisingly well at times for precision weapons

This usually works well enough, but the problem I have is just HOW hard they hit when they finally do.

The story of might fight against the Sister I made from that other thread was filled with me running, ducking between enemies, tanking with my Necramech and so on, but the punishment for me stopping (or being stopped by whatever CC the Sister or mooks threw at me) was disproportionate to the amount of damage the enemies were taking.

It doesn't feel equitable that the enemies can take hundreds of bullets but a 1,035 armor Umbra can't take more than 3-4 bullets. The multipliers on enemy damage are just as bloated as a player's can be simply because of how out of control player durability can be, and it very quickly hits a point where even that much armor is basically only buying you one extra hit at best.

That's probably my biggest issue is that the apparent gap in players versus enemies is just that large, there's so many multipliers on both sides that it just winds up creating this overly punishing design that can push players towards a playstyle of non-interactivity, which isn't healthy for any game.

[Marvelous_A]

It's long overdue but the workload would be so huge I doubt DE will ever do that.

For the last few years everything in this game is built on a broken balance. Would surely be no easy work to fix everything, warframe EHP, energy system and abilities, weapon mods, enemy spawn mechanism, everything has to be rebuilt from ground.

The later DE start fixing, more cr@p they will have to fix. DE still occasionally push out some band-aid fixes for this but they really should make up their mind ASAP.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Marvelous_A said:

It's long overdue but the workload would be so huge I doubt DE will ever do that.

For the last few years everything is this game is built on a broken balance. Would surely be no easy work to fix everything, warframe EHP, energy system and abilities, weapon mods, enemy spawn mechanism, everything has to be rebuilt from ground.

This is true, but at the very least they could soften the curve of how enemy damage ramps up in some places similar to how the adjusted the armor curve (although that would be significantly bigger of an undertaking I will admit). 

If they had to (and if people were masochistic enough for it I suppose) they could put the lost value back into Steel Path for those who WANT to get killed by a few stray bullets.

[Marvelous_A]

22 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This is true, but at the very least they could soften the curve of how enemy damage ramps up in some places similar to how the adjusted the armor curve (although that would be significantly bigger of an undertaking I will admit). 

If they had to (and if people were masochistic enough for it I suppose) they could put the lost value back into Steel Path for those who WANT to get killed by a few stray bullets.

Enemy damage is but a part of the whole gameplay loop. So giving it a smoother curve ONLY will not do anything. If enemies are less likely to one-shot you the game will be too (even more) easy because in 2021 completely incapacitating the mobs and nuking the map are the META and getting one-shot is actually the only threat to players because we have too many ways to escape (Operator/life-steal/abilities/bullet-jump at Mach 2 speed) you can't reduce mobs damage output without correspondingly nerfing players' survivability.

In fact first of all I'd suggest nerfing our survivability, namely the invincibility for some warframes and operator, and anything that allows instant 100% restoration (especially shields because shield-gate). Then start reducing mobs damage output and giving players more methods to heal themselves continuously throughout a mission, and speed up shield regeneration. And between those you also have to take out or nerf those cheesy CC abilities, nerf the damage output of out OP mass murder weapons, so yes the workload would be huge and backlash from players will be even more HUGE, but after the game goes through that phase Warframe will be totally different.

[FrostDragoon]

15 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This usually works well enough, but the problem I have is just HOW hard they hit when they finally do.

The story of might fight against the Sister I made from that other thread was filled with me running, ducking between enemies, tanking with my Necramech and so on, but the punishment for me stopping (or being stopped by whatever CC the Sister or mooks threw at me) was disproportionate to the amount of damage the enemies were taking.

It doesn't feel equitable that the enemies can take hundreds of bullets but a 1,035 armor Umbra can't take more than 3-4 bullets. The multipliers on enemy damage are just as bloated as a player's can be simply because of how out of control player durability can be, and it very quickly hits a point where even that much armor is basically only buying you one extra hit at best.

That's probably my biggest issue is that the apparent gap in players versus enemies is just that large, there's so many multipliers on both sides that it just winds up creating this overly punishing design that can push players towards a playstyle of non-interactivity, which isn't healthy for any game.

You were struggling this much against a Sister? They aren't even level 100 unless you max rank them (and I'm not certain they are even then). Also, were you trying to solo her? Usually you just join a random squad for the final confrontation and breeze through it in 10 minutes.

I don't say this to mock you in any way. I'm curious how she gave you so much trouble.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Enemy damage is but a part of the whole gameplay loop. So giving it a smoother curve ONLY will not do anything. If enemies are less likely to one-shot you the game will be too (even more) easy because in 2021 completely incapacitating the mobs and nuking the map are the META and getting one-shot is actually the only threat to players because we have too many ways to escape (Operator/life-steal/abilities/bullet-jump at Mach 2 speed) you can't reduce mobs damage output without correspondingly nerfing players' survivability.

Compensation nerfs to player survival would undermine the entire point of even attempting to address enemy damage.

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You were struggling this much against a Sister?

More like despite my best efforts I still died a single time to a level 3 Sister due to not being able to dodge an endless barrage of bullets from every direction.

Bullets that came from behind me, from enemies that spawned around the corner behind me, that did massive damage after my shield gate wore off while I was desperately trying to chase after a constantly teleporting boss with near constantly regenerating massive shields.

All because I was playing my favorite frame (Umbra, as mentioned) and not say, Nyx or Revenant with invincibility turned on, THAT'S the problem.

Edit: Oh I also Solo all of my Liches, so I was the only target, forgot to mention that.

[Marvelous_A]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Compensation nerfs to player survival would undermine the entire point of even attempting to address enemy damage.

Survivability in 2021 is built on escaping one-shot because of ridiculous enemy damage scaling. If you reduce enemy damage output you gotta take out the 99% DR and complete invincibility too. They should be in a reasonable level not giving players 100x EHP.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

More like despite my best efforts I still died a single time to a level 3 Sister due to not being able to dodge an endless barrage of bullets from every direction.

Bullets that came from behind me, from enemies that spawned around the corner behind me, that did massive damage after my shield gate wore off while I was desperately trying to chase after a constantly teleporting boss with near constantly regenerating massive shields.

All because I was playing my favorite frame (Umbra, as mentioned) and not say, Nyx or Revenant with invincibility turned on, THAT'S the problem.

Ah, gotcha. That makes way more sense. I've never been into Excal--Umbra or otherwise--but I can see how he might struggle here.

Also, Sister shield regen is pretty nuts. I think it could be curbed slightly by just adding a couple more seconds to the recharge delay.