Anyone else think it is time for "Enemy Damage 2.0"?

[Iccotak]

after watching Teshin gameplay I think it is time for a Warframe 2.0

This has been the most smooth, fluid, and solid looking gameplay in Warframe I have seen in a long time - if the rest of the game played like that I think it would be in a much better state.

 

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

after watching Teshin gameplay I think it is time for a Warframe 2.0

 

I'm not sure why everyone was so impressed by this, tbh. I thought the Grineer and Corpus segments were way more interesting.

[Iccotak]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'm not sure why everyone was so impressed by this, tbh. I thought the Grineer and Corpus segments were way more interesting.

Because it actually feels like Space Ninjas and is some of the smoothest space ninja gameplay I have seen in warframe in a long time. It actually feels like what Warframe should have been or could be.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

Because it actually feels like Space Ninjas and is some of the smoothest space ninja gameplay I have seen in warframe in a long time. It actually feels like what Warframe should have been or could be.

I guess? I don't think I would enjoy it as much as the Warframe we have.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Because it actually feels like Space Ninjas and is some of the smoothest space ninja gameplay I have seen in warframe in a long time. It actually feels like what Warframe should have been or could be.

You've inspired me to finally start capturing some of my gameplay footage.

(well, you and the level 11-15 Spy Lith Fissure I just did)

[Aldain]

Honestly Teshin at most just makes me mourn for how one-dimensional Melee can be at times.

Yeah, there are combos and some of them are good for procs, but that really is on a stance by stance (and sometimes even weapon type by weapon type) basis.

If they do anything else to melee from here on out I'd personally like to see them do something with the questionably useful stances.

[FrostDragoon]

16 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly Teshin at most just makes me mourn for how one-dimensional Melee can be at times.

Yeah, there are combos and some of them are good for procs, but that really is on a stance by stance (and sometimes even weapon type by weapon type) basis.

If they do anything else to melee from here on out I'd personally like to see them do something with the questionably useful stances.

I honestly felt like they mattered more before they removed Channeling and put in this Heavy Attack nonsense.

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Honestly Teshin at most just makes me mourn for how one-dimensional Melee can be at times.

Yeah, there are combos and some of them are good for procs, but that really is on a stance by stance (and sometimes even weapon type by weapon type) basis.

If they do anything else to melee from here on out I'd personally like to see them do something with the questionably useful stances.

I've said it before, and I suppose I'll be saying it 'til I'm bloated corpse in some thrice-damned floodplain, but the best thing they could do with Warframe's melee is shoot canned combos into the sun, and make each input a bespoke attack (maybe 2 just to make animation loops look nicer, along with your slide, aerial, and heavy attacks) and let us wheel through them as needed.

Even if it was just 4 moves per stance, having them provide different immediately available options would just lead to melee combat that integrated a lot better with the way we move around in a fight. The long, canned animations are doing no one any favors, and juggling enemies in Warframe because you need to hit them 50x with a sword would feel wildly out of place even if the pace of killing was toned down.

I want tools, damnit, I can make combos with those.

--------

On enemy damage, well, it's stuck in the same chicken-or-the-egg-or-is-it-really-broken-or-just-not-fun-anymore-for-some-folks paradigm the spectrum of player EHP exists in, and all that is of course leveraged against player kits because the design goal remains that your powers serve as the lever to tip things in your favor. Whether that's putting the field slow, stun, resist, or otherwise mitigate that damage.

Personally, I find anything below level 50 doesn't warrant so much as Redirection on Banshee, the damage just isn't there. A Redirection and, at the very tail end of it Arcane Aegis, proved sufficient-to-excessive amounts of EHP for clearing most Steel Path content. A couple of different setups with the power in slot 4 coupled with a weapon swap here or there solved most of the other issues.

However, I could have easily just crushed (and have a few times for a change of pace) those very same missions as Atlas with a Panzer Vulpaphyla. Or as a Nova, also with a Panzer Vulpaphyla (hard to pass up making every enemy on the map heal you, move and do DPS at 25% their normal rate, and take 6x~ish their normal damage). Or a variety of other frames with dramatically better ability to each damage, even if the practical outcome was the same: Nothing more than the odd death and revive, on a frame with 6 of 'em to spare.

I guess my takeaway would be the frame (Banshee P) I use most of the time, damage is reasonably manageable across most all tiers, provided one is using the tools in their kit to mitigate it in ways that relevant to the frame one's playing. I find more problems with legibility in combat than damage, personally speaking. Things like getting hit by splash damage or homing attacks that are invisible or so low profile you don't notice. Phantom reach, or just hard to judge range, on certain melee attacks, that kind of thing.

But, as I said, that's me, and I'm not convinced my position on the matter is all that relevant, to be honest. I'd imagine most of the-let's see-46,800 people currently playing on Steam would have a about as many opinions as there are players. It wasn't that long ago (maybe a week?) I seen a post complaining about fighting Profit Taker being too hard because the player's Inaros had a lot of trouble coping with the damage flying around.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

I've said it before, and I suppose I'll be saying it 'til I'm bloated corpse in some thrice-damned floodplain, but the best thing they could do with Warframe's melee is shoot canned combos into the sun, and make each input a bespoke attack (maybe 2 just to make animation loops look nicer, along with your slide, aerial, and heavy attacks) and let us wheel through them as needed.

Even if it was just 4 moves per stance, having them provide different immediately available options would just lead to melee combat that integrated a lot better with the way we move around in a fight. The long, canned animations are doing no one any favors, and juggling enemies in Warframe because you need to hit them 50x with a sword would feel wildly out of place even if the pace of killing was toned down.

I want tools, damnit, I can make combos with those.

I actually agree with this quite a lot. Before they removed Channeling, I actually learned a few of the combos. After that, and now that we have Heavy Attacks, I don't look at what any of the stances do, don't care about the combos, and usually just bring Redeemer P or Xoris because "real" melee is so boring, pointless, and liable to get me killed due to its limited range. Beyond that, when I notice a weapon has long animations that lock me into place, it instantly gets relegated to the "MR fodder" folder because it is obviously unusable in harder content. These attack speed nerfs did it *no* favors in this regard either.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Not at all. I think it's time for people that can't handle high level enemies to keep learning and gaining experience.

[Kaotyke]

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'm not sure why everyone was so impressed by this, tbh. I thought the Grineer and Corpus segments were way more interesting.

Me neither. That is just Warframe during the pre-Parkour 2.0 with no wall running and just with Valkyr's Rip line.

"Your usual Dynasty Warriors gameplay" with no immense hordes of enemies coming to your face.

Nostalgic for those played during it, sure. But not the highlight as playing as Teshin and seeing the difference between a Dax and a Warframe.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, Iccotak said:

after watching Teshin gameplay I think it is time for a Warframe 2.0

This has been the most smooth, fluid, and solid looking gameplay in Warframe I have seen in a long time - if the rest of the game played like that I think it would be in a much better state.

 

If you're incapable of following fast gameplay*

You left that part out.

[Hypernaut1]

How do you complain about "one shots" when you have 6 revives in a single mission? So what if an enemy gets one of those revives out of you? 

Are there really people out there failing missions because an enemy got the DPS drop on them 1 or 2x? 

Reality is, no enemy truly kills us in one hit. No enemy makes you fail a mission in one shot. You have 6 health bars to get through a mission. At best, an enemy can take away 1/6 of your health in one hit (with shield gating)  If you can't do that, the problem is you, not the enemy damage. 

 

[Iccotak]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're incapable of following fast gameplay*

You left that part out.

I think the "Fast Gameplay" of warframe is janky and Not fluid or smooth - like the current parkour system might as well just not be parkour because bullet jumping made most avenues of movement obsolete. And the "Wall Hopping" is just unappealing - never liked it.

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EDIT: There is this "Tyranny of Fun" attitude in the community which basically says "Any Restriction Bad" - I am of the opposite opinion. Nothing wrong with a bit of a power fantasy but restrictions are actually most often good for a game as well as necessary. Because Power creep as we are seeing now can become a real problem for both the players and developers. Can be not fun for player and developers now have to design around it.

[FrostDragoon]

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

How do you complain about "one shots" when you have 6 revives in a single mission? So what if an enemy gets one of those revives out of you? 

Are there really people out there failing missions because an enemy got the DPS drop on them 1 or 2x? 

Reality is, no enemy truly kills us in one hit. No enemy makes you fail a mission in one shot. You have 6 health bars to get through a mission. At best, an enemy can take away 1/6 of your health in one hit (with shield gating)  If you can't do that, the problem is you, not the enemy damage. 

 

In most cases I would agree, but I had a particularly tough prick of a lich wielding a radiation Zarr that was actually one-shotting most of the frames I attempted it with--frames that breeze through everything short of SP while I snore on my keyboard. Couple this with his extreme tankiness, adaptive armor, regenerating shields, teleports, knockdown spam, and all the trash that shows up... It just felt cheesy to play against, not challenging. Outside of him being virtually unkillable due to RNG combination of above stated attributes at that point. if he landed a hit on me--which isn't that hard to do with a weapon where the projectiles are basically invisible--it was over, which made for a very frustrating fight and not in any good way.

For most normal enemies in the game, though, I would say you're probably right.

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, Iccotak said:

I think the "Fast Gameplay" of warframe is janky and Not fluid or smooth - like the current parkour system might as well just not be parkour because bullet jumping made most avenues of movement obsolete. And the "Wall Hopping" is just unappealing - never liked it.

It is fluid and fast, but you're right that bullet jumping made all the parkour obsolete.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

In most cases I would agree, but I had a particularly tough prick of a lich wielding a radiation Zarr that was actually one-shotting most of the frames I attempted it with--frames that breeze through everything short of SP while I snore on my keyboard. Couple this with his extreme tankiness, adaptive armor, regenerating shields, teleports, knockdown spam, and all the trash that shows up... It just felt cheesy to play against, not challenging. Outside of him being virtually unkillable due to RNG combination of above stated attributes at that point. if he landed a hit on me--which isn't that hard to do with a weapon where the projectiles are basically invisible--it was over, which made for a very frustrating fight and not in any good way.

For most normal enemies in the game, though, I would say you're probably right.

But did you win? 

I think it's ok if a boss enemy can make you lose a revive or two or three. That's what they're there for. 

It's usually easy to adjust after carelessly losing a revive or two to any enemy in this game. 

There isn't an enemy in Warframe that can truly kill kill you in a single encounter. 

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But did you win? 

I think it's ok if a boss enemy can make you lose a revive or two or three. That's what they're there for. 

It's usually easy to adjust after carelessly losing a revive or two to any enemy in this game. 

There isn't an enemy in Warframe that can truly kill kill you in a single encounter. 

No, actually. I tried several times solo and eventually had to just pub it. It was just too much cheese with extreme scaling for a solo encounter.

[Hypernaut1]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, actually. I tried several times solo and eventually had to just pub it. It was just too much cheese with extreme scaling for a solo encounter.

Ok, then I can understand your specific complaint. I don't think bosses should take several times to defeat. 

Other players complaining about losing a revive during a mission because they weren't playing attention is overblown though. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

I think the "Fast Gameplay" of warframe is janky and Not fluid or smooth - like the current parkour system might as well just not be parkour because bullet jumping made most avenues of movement obsolete. And the "Wall Hopping" is just unappealing - never liked it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: There is this "Tyranny of Fun" attitude in the community which basically says "Any Restriction Bad" - I am of the opposite opinion. Nothing wrong with a bit of a power fantasy but restrictions are actually most often good for a game as well as necessary. Because Power creep as we are seeing now can become a real problem for both the players and developers. Can be not fun for player and developers now have to design around it.

No one with a modicum of business sense would let a game look like that for 7 years. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think you'd be back on the forums 5 years later saying the gameplay is stale and boring.

[Iccotak]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No one with a modicum of business sense would let a game look like that for 7 years. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think you'd be back on the forums 5 years later saying the gameplay is stale and boring.

Look like what? Back in 2013? I don't think anyone is asking for a return to everything of 2013 but I think people are right to say that there was a focus back then that is lacking today. That it has lost an aspect of its identity that was key to its success. That's what I see people critique about Necramechs and Archwing

I played WF recently - and imo until they do something about it Warframe is a growing pile of different unrelated systems. Steve talks about the goal being to connect everything but I've heard that before so I'll wait and see. Personally I think WF lost a bit of its magic it had back in 2014.

If I have to compare the old parkour vs new parkour - yeah I think there are some clear problems. Old Parkour was too slow, I get that, but 2.0 basically threw Parkour out the window. Now a session is just constant bullet jumping and maps are rarely ever designed around wall running & jumping.

Old was not perfect by any means - but 2.0 got rid of too much

Someone else said this in a separate thread

Quote

It also shouldn't need to be explained that a game can avoid being stagnant without becoming a completely different game that isn't even in the same genre

Just look at Monster Hunter - one of the biggest video game franchises in the world, yet it has an incredibly strong focus on its core gameplay and any new ideas or systems added are ensured to serve the core gameplay loop. MH doesn't have "Content Islands" because it's core gameplay is core to the identity of the franchise. Diversify and change things up? OK Fine, but make sure you don't lose focus of the core gameplay that made players interested in the first place.

Warframe got successfully kickstarted because of its core gameplay - it's where it is now because of its core gameplay. It's not radical to say that the thing that made the game successful should not be so casually tossed aside for the sake of "Diversity". Warframe should not try to be everything - it's not Star Citizen.

Link for that quote

 

[Aldain]

Well I managed to kill a second Sister a few minutes ago (I wanted a Hound since I converted my first one), it likely was only easier this time because I ran with Lavos and a Cedo...yay passive Condition Overload I guess...

Still wasn't fun, I just had enough power to make enemies a non-factor, I'd just vomit the glaive at her and she'd wind up with about 8 status procs followed by melting like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Even with Lavos (who has more armor and health than Umbra) I was still getting nicked by shots from behind, this time taking only about 15% of my health rather than about 33% like with Umbra.

[FrostDragoon]

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ok, then I can understand your specific complaint. I don't think bosses should take several times to defeat. 

Other players complaining about losing a revive during a mission because they weren't playing attention is overblown though. 

Honestly, I never struggled with these things until this update--and even then, rarely--but certain combinations of factors can potentially combine into something just unfun. Like I said, it didn't feel like challenge, just straight up cheese. There are lots of gimmicks in this game for us to learn to work around and that never bothered me, but I think liches should have some of the possible abilities they can spawn with be mutually exclusive so you don't see certain pairings on the same lich. Other than that, yeah. I agree with you about the revives thing. It's annoying, but not usually a big deal.

[FrostDragoon]

9 hours ago, Iccotak said:

Just look at Monster Hunter - one of the biggest video game franchises in the world, yet it has an incredibly strong focus on its core gameplay and any new ideas or systems added are ensured to serve the core gameplay loop. MH doesn't have "Content Islands" because it's core gameplay is core to the identity of the franchise. Diversify and change things up? OK Fine, but make sure you don't lose focus of the core gameplay that made players interested in the first place.

Warframe got successfully kickstarted because of its core gameplay - it's where it is now because of its core gameplay. It's not radical to say that the thing that made the game successful should not be so casually tossed aside for the sake of "Diversity". Warframe should not try to be everything - it's not Star Citizen.

I think this is in the broad scope a fair point, but an incomplete one. The problem with the "content islands" in Warframe is that they actually were intended to be integrated, but often take too long or end up being too hard for DE to do. Look how long it too Archwing--something most consider "dead content"--to become something more standard. Like K-Drives, it still has no place in regular star chart missions, but it has found some use in open world and Railjack content. However, I would say that I really enjoy railjack and probably would even more if it was more of a content island than it is now. I seriously dislike this "taxi to the real mission" state of it.

Ultimately, it just depends on the content. Just because a certain set of values works for one game doesn't always mean it would for others. Some MMOs (especially those originating in Asia) intentionally put content islands in the game just to give players a break from that core loop. It's not inherently clear that content islands are a bad thing--it just depends on how they are used. Warframe could certainly fix some stuff up in this regard, but to say that these have somehow held the game back or not helped it to get where it is? Just looking at the history of how the game has progressed, I think that's over-stating your case.

[FrostDragoon]

10 hours ago, Iccotak said:

EDIT: There is this "Tyranny of Fun" attitude in the community which basically says "Any Restriction Bad" - I am of the opposite opinion. Nothing wrong with a bit of a power fantasy but restrictions are actually most often good for a game as well as necessary. Because Power creep as we are seeing now can become a real problem for both the players and developers. Can be not fun for player and developers now have to design around it.

The "balance" for a game like this is the same for others with infinite scaling. Player power only feels balanced at the start of the game, but eventually it grows out of control--"power creep"--but this is offset by the fact that there will always be content that can challenge them. D3's G-Rift system is a perfect example. Disgaea is all about this from what I understand (never played it myself, but seen friends and videos of it played). I believe DFO is meant to be this way too.

The problem we see in Warframe is that certain content is clearly designed to be a specific difficulty and when players asked for more challenge, we got Steel Path instead of a level slider to set our own challenge.