Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[DrivaMain]

5 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

If sonar doesn't end up getting nerfed specifically in this kind of scenario ill be surprised. The reason its as good as it is, is simply because it takes the low after DR damage and amplifies it without any more DR. Most likely it will be moved up one step so that the bonus damage gets hit by the DR as well, and thus no longer bypasses it.

I am even surprised that DE lets Sonar stacks multiplicatively for this long. I guess the low usage rate of this frame made this go under the radar. Like come on, over billions of damage by just spamming 2? If DE wants to let Banshee shine without these type of ability immunity on some of the bosses they have to fix that stacking at some point. Making it stacks additively will definitely keep it's damage potential from going to UNGA BUNGA numbers or just fix the DPS DR to make it so it detects the sonar stacking reducing it to reasonable numbers.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

If sonar doesn't end up getting nerfed specifically in this kind of scenario ill be surprised. The reason its as good as it is, is simply because it takes the low after DR damage and amplifies it without any more DR. Most likely it will be moved up one step so that the bonus damage gets hit by the DR as well, and thus no longer bypasses it.

Seems fair

[Butterfly85]

Might as well nerf Ivara and Loki then, as you can cheese the ever loving hek out if the liches with them. Especially if you pull a 300 IQ move and subsumed Eclipse or Roar on them to boot 🤷‍♀️

[DrivaMain]

2 minutes ago, Butterfly85 said:

Might as well nerf Ivara and Loki then, as you can cheese the ever loving hek out if the liches with them. Especially if you pull a 300 IQ move and subsumed Eclipse or Roar on them to boot 🤷‍♀️

Unlike the usual damage stacking tactic, somehow Sonar's weird interaction with the Lich/sister DR or the multiplicative stacking allow it to somehow bypass it. You can compare them yourself. Applying Roar or Eclipse gives a very small damage boost against them.. but Sonar? Yeah, you can just click and it dies.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Butterfly85:

Might as well nerf Ivara and Loki then, as you can cheese the ever loving hek out if the liches with them. Especially if you pull a 300 IQ move and subsumed Eclipse or Roar on them to boot 🤷‍♀️

what does it have to do with this? these are primitive tactics that even a child can understand.

every "vet" knows a lot of tactics against "final lich / sister fight". It's about this troll bait, isn't it?
only when beginners read this embarrassing and emotional trolling will they become extremely confused.

take a look at the first page ... there are actually people who have problems with lvl 5 fight!

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

what does it have to do with this? these are primitive tactics that even a child can understand.

every "vet" knows a lot of tactics against "final lich / sister fight". It's about this troll bait, isn't it?
only when beginners read this embarrassing and emotional trolling will they become extremely confused.

take a look at the first page ... there are actually people who have problems with lvl 5 fight!

I think the point of this topic is that there's a mechanic being entirely bypassed not by brute force, but by some sort of coding oversight.

edit: assuming that's what's actually happening. Dunno myself

[Absolute_Kriatura]

What everyone is forgetting are invigorations, thats what's breaking the game and what everyone disliked since it was announced. Banshee sonar was always there and was always good, just invigorations amplified that ability beyond imagination and it was posted in the warframe reddit with screencap even. The warframe itself is good as it's. The OP post was lacking a lot of info letting everyone to go wild guessing things and things like this always ends up with stupid nerfs noone asked for due to misinformation, in this case lack of it imho.

[DrivaMain]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think the point of this topic is that there's a mechanic being entirely bypassed not by brute force, but by some sort of coding oversight.

edit: assuming that's what's actually happening. Dunno myself

You can test it out yourself. Try stack sonar in a Lich/sister encounter then apply damage, can be in starchart fight or Railjack and you can clearly see in a few shots they are instantly downed.

Revenant used to be able to pull this off aswell with the Enthrall + Reave tactic, but that has been fixed.

[DrivaMain]

1 minute ago, Archaeopelta said:

What everyone is forgetting are invigorations, thats what's breaking the game and what everyone disliked since it was announced. Banshee sonar was always there and was always good, just invigorations amplified that ability beyond imagination and it was posted in the warframe reddit with screencap even. The warframe itself is good as it's. The OP post was lacking a lot of info letting everyone to go wild guessing things and things like this always ends up with stupid nerfs noone asked for due to misinformation, in this case lack of imho.

Even without invigorations, you can still pull this off with a strength build. The key here is stacking.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

You can test it out yourself. Try stack sonar in a Lich/sister encounter then apply damage, can be in starchart fight or Railjack and you can clearly see in a few shots they are instantly downed.

Revenant used to be able to pull this off aswell with the Enthrall + Reave tactic, but that has been fixed.

I'll take your word for it 😋. I trust that when you see an enemy deleted in seconds, you've seen an enemy deleted in seconds. And that it does seem odd in the case of a Lich/Sister

[Yamazuki]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

I'm surprised it got through that we're able to basically shut them off entirely.. then again, certain frames are barely under the radar by both the community and the devs.. we'll see what happens, but i sure would love some consistency in that regard.

It shouldn't be a surprise, DE isn't keeping track of what's in the game. Limbo and SS, Khora "bug fix", the Dagger and shield gate, Hildryn+ES and shield-gate, the thrown melee, are a few somewhat recent examples over "oversights"

Even if DE were keeping track, there's an excessive amount of combinations in the game to do so, and DE will realistically only look at what people are actually using. It's why they did nothing to Limbo until after SS, and he's not even the only Warframe to completely invalidate Sentients through abilities. Hildryn got to abuse ES until people started using it, etc.

[DrivaMain]

Added video proof into the OP.

[Absolute_Kriatura]

4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Even without invigorations, you can still pull this off with a strength build. The key here is stacking.

Whoever is not stacking sonar with a Sonar focused build is doing it wrong, like really, what are you even trying to accomplish?? nerfing every single strong iteration that goes unnoticed by DE due to lack of proper testing and/or coding??

Again, it's not player's fault, players will always find a way to be as efficient as possible, bending the game mechanics to their favor as much as possible.

You know an horrible iteration that has not been fixed in years and breaks the mood for people playing together that's way way more annoying?? Nekro's shadows eating Oberon's energy if you dare to want to buff everyone with heals and armor. There are more broken sinergies that should be prioritized over this isolated matter.

[DrivaMain]

5 minutes ago, Archaeopelta said:

Whoever is not stacking sonar with a Sonar focused build is doing it wrong, like really, what are you even trying to accomplish?? nerfing every single strong iteration that goes unnoticed by DE due to lack of proper testing and/or coding??

Again, it's not player's fault, players will always find a way to be as efficient as possible, bending the game mechanics to their favor as much as possible.

You know an horrible iteration that has not been fixed in years and breaks the mood for people playing together that's way way more annoying?? Nekro's shadows eating Oberon's energy if you dare to want to buff everyone with heals and armor. There are more broken sinergies that should be prioritized over this isolated matter.

I am asking for consistency. Every damage stacking tactic is being countered by an intended mechanic. Sonar stacking however, does not.

So? That doesn't mean the devs will let players get around gameplay mechanics they intended. 

You know another gameplay mechanic that's more annoying? I can list them :

• Terrible companion survivability
• Outdated Archmelee mods.
• Outdated Archwing mods
• The list goes on..

But what we're talking right now is Banshee, try not to derail the topic this thread is talking. You are doing something called "Red Herring".

[Paradoxity]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I am asking for consistency.

Why, though? 

If it bothers you, don't play banshee for your corpus lich. Problem solved. 

[Kuilvax]

If i were to see a banshee before this update i would go buy a lottery ticket. Now that she is somewhat relevant the nerf pitchforks are up in the air.

sonar stacking was always in the game and was a part of banshee but she is very energy dependent and basically a glass cannon. 
The one shotting the boss doesn’t comes from the sonar stacking. If that was the case a mirage or a chroma would be able to one shot it as well. the one shot here happens because the damage amplifier effect of the sonar gets activated after the initial damage reduction. That seems to be a bug and probably will get fixed. They will not change/nerf banshee because of a bug.

they will simply update the game engine to calculate and add the damage buff of sonar before the damage resistance stacks.

Will it make a banshee weaker ? Yes but she will continue to be the fastest at taking down the lich/sister.

[DrivaMain]

2 minutes ago, Kuilvax said:

Will it make a banshee weaker ? Yes but she will continue to be the fastest at taking down the lich/sister.

Probably not, given DE's weird math. the TTK gain from stacking sonar will probably be negligible once the fix is live. You can see this with Voidrig's Arquebex reducing it's damage to around 300.

[Absolute_Kriatura]

28 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I am asking for consistency. Every damage stacking tactic is being countered by an intended mechanic. Sonar stacking however, does not.

So? That doesn't mean the devs will not let players get around gameplay mechanics they intended. 

You know another gameplay mechanic that's more annoying? I can list them :

• Terrible companion survivability
• Outdated Archmelee mods.
• Outdated Archwing mods
• The list goes on..

But what we're talking right now is Banshee, try not to derail the topic this thread is talking. You are doing something called "Red Herring".

I'm answering to you, noone else, that's why I quoted you and only you. By no means I'm trying to derrail the thread or confuse anyone.

I used to be a white knight of DE, still deep down I might still be, but as of right now the game has lost a big part of his "magic" for me. Too many things went south, to the point that consistency you're looking for is nowhere to be seen.

Banshee is ok as she is, the ability works as intended, hell it should work for some other big bosses or annoying enemies like Tusk Thumpers too with similar DR mechanics but it does not, will you create a thread now asking for a buff for her instead?? Just let it go, it's a drop of water in the ocean at this point.

[Kuilvax]

1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

Probably not, given DE's weird math. the TTK gain from stacking sonar will probably be negligible once the fix is live. You can see this with Voidrig's Arquebex reducing it's damage to around 300.

You are assuming that they will actually fix it in the first place. Fighting a sister/lich is a very isolated case. Most of the time a players picks up any lich/sister weapon or ephemera they want and then never get or fight a sister or lich ever again. Before this update my last lich kill was like 6-7 months ago. In just 1-2 months people will stop killing sisters this often. De might as well just wait and the “problem” will bury itself

[Jarriaga]

Scarlet Spear Venari and Limbo nerf is a thing that happened. Thus, I won't be surprised if they target Banshee because of how she performs in the new content despite no change being made to her.

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Banshee is the original reason why so many bosses have invincibility phases and health gates. They wanted to get rid of that with liches, but it came full circle.

Banshee is unpopular because DE usually does not allow her to do the one thing she was designed to do.

Banshee is needless overkill for fodder, but doesn't work on most bosses kind like a lot of single target weapons.

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, Archaeopelta said:

I'm answering to you, noone else, that's why I quoted you and only you. By no means I'm trying to derrail the thread or confuse anyone.

I used to be a white knight of DE, still deep down I might still be, but as of right now the game has lost a big part of his "magic" for me. Too many things went south, to the point that consistency you're looking for is nowhere to be seen.

Banshee is ok as she is, the ability works as intended, hell it should work for some other big bosses or annoying enemies like Tusk Thumpers too with similar DR mechanics but it does not, will you create a thread now asking for a buff for her instead?? Just let it go, its a drop of water in the ocean at this point.

Hm. Are you standing on the side that "A mechanic (Damage Reduction) that's broken should not be fixed"?

Most of your counterpoints seem to be about how Banshee is powerful and should remain so, which I don't think anyone was arguing against (I could of course be wrong)

edit: Whoops, Driva posted just below this and I think I was wrong 😅

[DrivaMain]

14 minutes ago, Kuilvax said:

You are assuming that they will actually fix it in the first place. Fighting a sister/lich is a very isolated case. Most of the time a players picks up any lich/sister weapon or ephemera they want and then never get or fight a sister or lich ever again. Before this update my last lich kill was like 6-7 months ago. In just 1-2 months people will stop killing sisters this often. De might as well just wait and the “problem” will bury itself

Given DE fixed Revenant's Enthrall+Reave combo allowing them to one shot Liches back in early 2020 (the change was undocumented, I also used this tactic sometimes at that time). Banshee will probably receive the same treatment. They said it in the trello board they are looking for "one shot caused by DR oversights" in the Lich/sister fights, they probably already know this already.

 

14 minutes ago, Archaeopelta said:

I'm answering to you, noone else, that's why I quoted you and only you. By no means I'm trying to derrail the thread or confuse anyone.

I used to be a white knight of DE, still deep down I might still be, but as of right now the game has lost a big part of his "magic" for me. Too many things went south, to the point that consistency you're looking for is nowhere to be seen.

Banshee is ok as she is, the ability works as intended, hell it should work for some other big bosses or annoying enemies like Tusk Thumpers too with similar DR mechanics but it does not, will you create a thread now asking for a buff for her instead?? Just let it go, its a drop of water in the ocean at this point.

Still it is an indirect attempt of derailing the topic wether you wills it or not.

I don't think multiplicative stacking was intended in the first place, sooner or later. It will probably get touched at some point. It's probably the reason why some bosses like Eidolons, Ropalolyst, Orb Mothers, Tusk Thumpers are immune to abilities in the first place, the fear of frames like Banshee and Mesa trivializes them. Best example of this is Khora, Khora was left untouched for ~2 years and then suddenly out of nowhere DE made whipclaw requires line of sight.

[--END--Rikutatis]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

It bothers me because players are getting around a game mechanic designed to combat these type of tactics. You know these type of things will not go unnoticed by DE. Like come on, Level 5 Nemesises getting downed in less than a few button clicks? You know these boss type enemies aren't designed to be one shotted.

You do realize eidolons werent supposed to be one shot either right? DE even massively nerfed Chroma back in the day hoping to stop the one shots. Except it didnt work. And people still find crazy ways to one shot them with nearly every frame in the roster. This game escaped DE's control several years ago. There's far too many interactions and multipliers. Banshee is just what you watched on reddit, there's a lot of other stuff out there that can obliterate liches.

[0_The_F00l]

Banshee is very effective on the sisters  and liches , as effective as original chroma was on eidolons , and chroma still remains one of the most effective.

Is it a bug to be fixed ? No the ability is working as intended.

but does it trivialize parts of the content ? Yes , assuming your Banshee can actually manange to stay alive in the encounter. Banshee is very squishy , the OG glass cannon.

But she is not the only one , any debuff and damage vulnerability works (tried with equinox , nezha , sevagoth) 

It also requires precision attacks to deal full damage (most players would rather quit the game than have to put up with the concept of aiming) 

Is it really such a travesty to have a frame be very good at something it was intended for? Something that is already locked behind a lot of grind,

I expect some changes honestly (maybe a limit on vulnerability or such) , but I do not expect any nerfs to Banshee herself.

Then again , this is DE , they can easily pull a "it was not intended to work that way despite it being in the game for years , so we are reverting it how it should be " with a straight face.