Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[DrivaMain]

1 minute ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

You do realize eidolons werent supposed to be one shot either right? DE even massively nerfed Chroma back in the day hoping to stop the one shots. Except it didnt work. And people still find crazy ways to one shot them with nearly every frame in the roster. This game escaped DE's control several years ago. There's far too many interactions and multipliers. Banshee is just what you watched on reddit, there's a lot of other stuff out there that can obliterate liches.

Yes, I do. I view Chroma's nerf as reasonable and said "about time". The reason why DE probably left it is they don't want to upset the speedrun community and it's already far too established. But don't think DE is not gonna apply some form of DPS based DR on them too once they decided to remove their status and ability immunity. DE always changes things out of nowhere sometimes and upset subsets of the playerbase in the process.

 

[Kuilvax]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Banshee will probably receive the same treatment.

You are still thinking banshee is the problem here. Thats is %100 wrong. Banshee was always the one shotter. she was always the billions of damage achieved frame. if de thought that banshee was a problem they would've made the liches immune to abilities or nerfed banshee to hell years ago. The only thing here that de might fix is to update their engine to calculate the damage buff of sonar before the initial lich/sister damage reduction IF they decide to it

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

You are still thinking banshee is the problem here. Thats is %100 wrong. Banshee was always the one shotter. she was always the billions of damage achieved frame. if de thought that banshee was a problem they would've made the liches immune to abilities or nerfed banshee to hell years ago. The only thing here that de might fix is to update their engine to calculate the damage buff of sonar before the initial lich/sister damage reduction IF they decide to it

 

I think the main point is that it seems like a coding oversight or something

[Kuilvax]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think the main point is that it seems like a coding oversight or something

a coding oversight that always existed in the game. damage buffs like banshee sonar or viral status effect or sevagoth's first ability always applies after the initial damage reduction. nerfing banshee for an isolated boss encounter is not a good change to ask for.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

a coding oversight that always existed in the game. damage buffs like banshee sonar or viral status effect or sevagoth's first ability always applies after the initial damage reduction. nerfing banshee for an isolated boss encounter is not a good change to ask for.

Fixing the coding oversight is a good thing to ask for, though, right?

[Drachnyn]

Banshee doing Banshee things. Obviously an oversight, maybe the entire frame is just an oversight and no one at DE is actually aware she exists.

[Azamagon]

When proposing my rework for Banshee (giving her better survivability, at the cost of Sonar no longer stacking multiplicatively, among other things), I again and again said that Sonar's immensely powerful damage multiplier is an extreme outlier, even by Warframe's already extreme standards. Getting several thousand times of a damage bonus seems a bit much, don't you think?

Because, if we want a more balanced and less extreme game, things like Sonar's current stacking is one of the biggest offenders to it.

[Kuilvax]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Fixing the coding oversight is a good thing to ask for, though, right?

We don't know if its a coding oversight to begin with. It might as well be an intentional damage calculation. they want damage buffing abilities to be more direct instead of still going through enemy defenses. it was like this for years. banshee was like this for years. It was never raised to be a problem by the community until banshee starting one shotting the new sisters. Thats what banshee does. she is the billions of damage frame IF YOU CAN ACTUALLY SURVIVE TO DO THE DAMAGE she is the og glass cannon.

 

[Kuilvax]

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

When proposing my rework for Banshee (giving her better survivability, at the cost of Sonar no longer stacking multiplicatively, among other things), I again and again said that Sonar's immensely powerful damage multiplier is an extreme outlier, even by Warframe's already extreme standards. Getting several thousand times of a damage bonus seems a bit much, don't you think?

Because, if we want a more balanced and less extreme game, things like Sonar's current stacking is one of the biggest offenders to it.

a rework to give more survivability to remove sonar stacking could be a good trade for banshee to make her more popular, but straight up nerfing her without giving anything in return is not. even without the sonar stacking banshee will continue to be able to kill a sister/lich within seconds

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

We don't know if its a coding oversight to begin with. It might as well be an intentional damage calculation. they want damage buffing abilities to be more direct instead of still going through enemy defenses. it was like this for years. banshee was like this for years. It was never raised to be a problem by the community until banshee starting one shotting the new sisters. Thats what banshee does. she is the billions of damage frame IF YOU CAN ACTUALLY SURVIVE TO DO THE DAMAGE she is the og glass cannon.

 

Perhaps. Dunno if it's a coding oversight or not, but I wouldn't think it's great to say "Don't fix it" if it is. If it's fully intentional, then that's that as far as I'm concerned

[RichardKam]

Com'on, Nyx and Banshee were the among the least used warframes in the entire game, and people have been complaining a rework or update to their kits before SoP. 

Now they finally have a very niche use out of ordinary game, and people are upset?

Yeah, Wukong and Loki and Ivara can cheese spy mission. They defeat the entire concept of spy!! So unfair to Harrow and Chroma!! Do something DE!! Change!!

[Galuf]

Banshee is a 8 years old frame. Obivously the Sonar augment and mod power creep made Sonar even stronger but even if she gets rescalled she will remain good for liches, she is just one of the better tools for that job design wise.

Chroma got gutted for eidolons it is true but it was not only impacting eidolons, you were getting ridiculous damage almost passively. People kept wrecking them, honestly atm imho Chroma is great only on profit taker, he is a decent life tank for steel path but not flavor of the month.

Also, banshee is bad at many things in the game, except for the last mission going out with banshee is clearly a give and take, you trade clearspeed for guaranteed havok on thralls and lich spawns, it's decent in a party, but going in there solo with banshee is something I'd recommend only to newer players because of this.

[sunderthefirmament]

Can't Banshee just have this?  I love that I'm seeing Banshee used more and more.  She's a strong frame that isn't always the easiest to use.  Historically, her Sonar hasn't really been useful because most bosses that would need the kind of damage augmentation it provides are just flat out immune to it.

 

Maybe just make it so the Decaying Dragon Key removes shield gating while equipped.  That would give the sister/lich a fighting chance.

[Kuilvax]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Perhaps. Dunno if it's a coding oversight or not, but I wouldn't think it's great to say "Don't fix it" if it is. If it's fully intentional, then that's that as far as I'm concerned

I'm saying don't fix it because if they update the damage buffing effects to go before the damage reduction it will hurt a lot of frames and weapons. most of the weapons survive from the damage buff of viral stacks. now imagine if they were not as effective as it is. If de is going to make a change to the damage calculation system it should be tested for a while and should be carefully calculated. You can't just go and say well banshee is too strong better nerf all the damage buffs in the game. that causes more problems than it solves

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

I'm saying don't fix it because if they update the damage buffing effects to go before the damage reduction it will hurt a lot of frames and weapons. most of the weapons survive from the damage buff of viral stacks. now imagine if they were not as effective as it is. If de is going to make a change to the damage calculation system it should be tested for a while and should be carefully calculated. You can't just go and say well banshee is too strong better nerf all the damage buffs in the game. that causes more problems than it solves

I would be very surprised if DE wanted to design around a coding oversight.

[Kuilvax]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

I would be very surprised if DE wanted to design around a coding oversight.

you are still assuming that its a coding oversight ? Did de told you it was ? Given that every new frame with damage buffing abilities work the same way it would be more reasonable to assume its an intentional mechanic not an oversight

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

you are still assuming that its a coding oversight ? Did de told you it was ? Given that every new frame with damage buffing abilities work the same way it would be more reasonable to assume its an intentional mechanic not an oversight

If it's a coding oversight, I think it should be fixed. If it's intentional, I'm fine with it

[BansheePrime]

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

When proposing my rework for Banshee (giving her better survivability, at the cost of Sonar no longer stacking multiplicatively, among other things), I again and again said that Sonar's immensely powerful damage multiplier is an extreme outlier, even by Warframe's already extreme standards. Getting several thousand times of a damage bonus seems a bit much, don't you think?

Because, if we want a more balanced and less extreme game, things like Sonar's current stacking is one of the biggest offenders to it.

That's your mistake. We don't want what you want. We can mind our own business. 

[Kuilvax]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

If it's a coding oversight, I think it should be fixed. If it's intentional, I'm fine with it

still even if its an oversight, removing it like a snap without further testing is not how you manage a live service game. changes like that oversight or not is bigger than you think and de needs to follow through with a lot of buffs and reworks to other systems. i don't think de will go through all that just to make banshee weaker

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kuilvax said:

still even if its an oversight, removing it like a snap without further testing is not how you manage a live service game. changes like that oversight or not is bigger than you think and de needs to follow through with a lot of buffs and reworks to other systems. i don't think de will go through all that just to make banshee weaker

I'm fine with additional testing if they're going to remove it. It might reveal that maybe they did design around a coding oversight unintentionally, and then perhaps they can make changes to rectify that.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Archaeopelta said:

Banshee is ok as she is, the ability works as intended, hell it should work for some other big bosses or annoying enemies like Tusk Thumpers too with similar DR mechanics but it does not, will you create a thread now asking for a buff for her instead?? Just let it go, it's a drop of water in the ocean at this point.

In case you forgot or were taking a break from the game back then, "Working as intended" didn't stop DE from labeling Venari's target healing ability a bug during Scarlet Spear and removing it (Instated later) despite Venari having an in-game tooltip explicitly indicating it could heal defense targets.

 

[vanaukas]

The reading comprehension skills on most  users commenting here are laughable. It's kinda obvious that DE is going to do something with this (not sure about nyx, probably they'll doo it too), that was the whole point on giving a new DR system for Liches and Sisters. That doesn't mean that OP or me are asking for nerfs (or upset by the existence of the mechanics that surpass the new DR), but actually making a point for future updates.

I'll say it again, everytime that kind of people reads the word "nerf" their vision turns red and they are completely incapable of reading properly and feel a compulsory need to say "NO NERFS!!! JUST BUFFS!" or "WHY YOU ARE UPSET BY THIS?!?!? YOU ARE JEALOUS!?!?!?" and stuff like that. 

[-BellaMuerte-]

I want to comment I really do but I'll just ask for some one to pass the popcorn

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think the main point is that it seems like a coding oversight or something

Not so much a coding oversight as much as a planning oversight. 

DE just adds new types of damage multipliers as they go. We have so many and we don't even have proper terminology for all of them. Finisher damage, stealth multipliers, headshot multipliers, multishot, stance multipliers, base damage, elements, critical multiplier, faction damage, viral procs before even getting into Warframe powers.

DE should have sat down in the beginning and threw all types of damage multipliers into distinct bins, putting a hard limit of how many multipliers they'll allow in game.

Then again armor scaling is another oversight that DE leaned on to balance out player damage.