Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[(NSW)Greybones]

33 minutes ago, minininja77 said:

and I walk right in on Ivara stealth a shot her in the face with my Artemis bow 3 times and walk to the exit, its called the right tool for the job

 🤔 What’s the job? I’m assuming killing her fast (given by the big clue :P ).

Hrm. One would almost say it’s the perfect tool. The best tool of them all, perhaps. Your certain mod/arcane/equipment is the right tool for killing her insanely quickly with minimal threat.

Tends to be the opposite of a challenging fight, which would make it the wrong tool for that particular job?

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

 🤔 What’s the job? I’m assuming killing her fast (given by the big clue :P ).

Hrm. One would almost say it’s the perfect tool. The best tool of them all, perhaps. Your certain mod/arcane/equipment is the right tool for killing her insanely quickly with minimal threat.

Tends to be the opposite of a challenging fight, which would make it the wrong tool for that particular job?

I think it's a big issue of overall game balance though, when the only challenge in this game (if you are one with the right set of mods/arcanes/whatever and the right knowledge), is to gimp yourself on purpose. 

But to truly fix that problem... to truly solve that. It would require insane amounts of rebalancing, and hurting a lot of people's favorite power fantasies, and DE is worried the backlash is too severe. And so, the problem remains. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think it's a big issue of overall game balance though, when the only challenge in this game (if you are one with the right set of mods/arcanes/whatever and the right knowledge), is to gimp yourself on purpose. 

But to truly fix that problem... to truly solve that. It would require insane amounts of rebalancing, and hurting a lot of people's favorite power fantasies, and DE is worried the backlash is too severe. And so, the problem remains. 

Ah yes.

[minininja77]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 🤔 What’s the job? I’m assuming killing her fast (given by the big clue :P ).

Hrm. One would almost say it’s the perfect tool. The best tool of them all, perhaps. Your certain mod/arcane/equipment is the right tool for killing her insanely quickly with minimal threat.

Tends to be the opposite of a challenging fight, which would make it the wrong tool for that particular job?

What's the job? for me its get in get out with no fuss, I see no reason to make things harder than they need to be. The problem is the sisters are not "challenging" they are just boring bullet sponges that jump around all over the damn place. If they had real genuine mechanics to the fights, stealthing in with Ivara and popping her in the face to avoid those would be cheesing it, but the fight is 100% the exact same fight I did prior to sending her into RJ other than DE having her stop by the steroid shop.

[(NSW)Greybones]

17 minutes ago, minininja77 said:

What's the job? for me its get in get out with no fuss, I see no reason to make things harder than they need to be. The problem is the sisters are not "challenging" they are just boring bullet sponges that jump around all over the damn place. If they had real genuine mechanics to the fights, stealthing in with Ivara and popping her in the face to avoid those would be cheesing it, but the fight is 100% the exact same fight I did prior to sending her into RJ other than DE having her stop by the steroid shop.

Hm? So the job goes beyond just killing her fast.

 🤔 Is there additional criteria to the job, like avoiding failure at any cost? With such a powerful build you’ve made, I’d expect risk of failure doesn’t come easily (which I expect would be good for you, means you can grind fast)

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Out of mild curiosity, how long have you been meeting the enemy on their level by choice? It doesn’t seem a common thing (most are quite happy to have their overpowered fun, which is fair enough)

By that do you mean not utilizing trivializing functions like infinite CC/invincibility or one-shot damage stacking?

Because if so, that's how I engage with (almost) all content, I tend to stick to more "general use" frames like Excalibur and as of late I've been enjoying Lavos a fair bit (especially for Railjack since I fly solo and running to refuel energy is kind of a pain) and mostly don't use the most high-end weapons...with the possible exception of the Cedo when playing as Lavos, but that's less common.

My builds aren't anything to be proud of either most of the time, for Warframes or Weapons. I tend to win through sheer force of will and high effort, that tends to be why I dislike how the enemies are just as low-effort in the way they fight players as players are when fighting enemies.

The only times I usually ever partake in some of the cheese are very limited to things like ESO (because lol at playing ESO without nuke spam). The rest of the time I am quite literally the most otherwise generic loadout-bearing clown in Warframe.

But for all the effort I put in to make up for my sub-par modding and mediocre favored equipment, it all winds up moot half the time, especially when I do go into multiplayer missions (which usually is just for random relic cracking and some Nightwave missions).

[(NSW)Greybones]

56 minutes ago, Aldain said:

My builds aren't anything to be proud of either most of the time, for Warframes or Weapons

I know builds are pretty personal regarding the entertainment value, but do you happen to have a build I could try? I tend to avoid reading about builds because most of them aren't really my bag (honestly, I'm also really assuming that they'll be overpowered), but when you describe your experience as "winning through sheer force of will and high effort" (I like the phrase 👍), it makes me curious; makes me wonder how far I'd get with a build that doesn't obliterate.

edit: 🤔 I guess it's actually more accurate to say "What level range I'd settle into with a build that doesn't obliterate", since I wouldn't have fun destroying lower-level stuff, and way-too-high would be not fun to fight

[DrivaMain]

2 hours ago, minininja77 said:

and I walk right in on Ivara stealth a shot her in the face with my Artemis bow 3 times and walk to the exit, its called the right tool for the job

For curiosity. What Rank is the sister? I can see Rank 1-3 to be possible, but not rank 4-5.

It seems like Stealth Multipliers ignore the DR as well. 

I am really astonished how much oversights we have discovered in the new DPS based DR mechanic.

[EmberStar]

For myself:  The "job" with Sisters is A) to avoid the many, many ways the game seems determined to try to turn it INTO an unpaid job.  And B) to get the stupid gun as quickly as possible.  I don't like dealing with Liches/Sisters.  I basically ignored the Liches pretty much since the beginning of the system.  (I've fought less than twenty five, and converted about six, two of which were to confirm that you don't get to keep the weapon unless you kill them.)  I'm not interested in their "challenging" mechanics (aka their blatant "the GM is cheating" design.)  I'm one of the players people scream about who doesn't insta-stab a Lich/Sister, because with the current murmer setup my goal is to NEVER stab them until I've unlocked all three murmers and have at least a slight chance of winning the "coin flip lotto" and taking her out completely on the first attempt.

I'd actually be focusing on getting the melee weapons from Ergo Glast, except that Voidstorm missions SUCK and I suspect the drop chance of keys has the decimal point shifted by at least one place.  (They do NOT drop as a "common" reward 30% of the time.  Out of twenty attempts, playing solo and doing all optional objectives in the Veil where I'd get them six at a time, I only JUST got enough for one weapon.)  I don't fight Sisters because I even slightly enjoy interacting with them.  I fight them because they're holding my new gun.  Getting it as quickly as possible, and with as little chance of failure as I can, is entirely the point.

[Marvelous_A]

That's about the only thing Banshee can do. She always has extreme damage potential people just didn't see that because nuking map is the meta. People have already been using Banshee+Mesa combo for prolonged Index run.

[Aldain]

40 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I know builds are pretty personal regarding the entertainment value, but do you happen to have a build I could try? I tend to avoid reading about builds because most of them aren't really my bag (honestly, I'm also really assuming that they'll be overpowered), but when you describe your experience as "winning through sheer force of will and high effort" (I like the phrase 👍), it makes me curious; makes me wonder how far I'd get with a build that doesn't obliterate.

edit: 🤔 I guess it's actually more accurate to say "What level range I'd settle into with a build that doesn't obliterate", since I wouldn't have fun destroying lower-level stuff, and way-too-high would be not fun to fight

Honestly even if I did link a build they usually are just Damage Mod+two/three 60/60 mods+Crit chance and damage (if applicable)+Multishot/Attack speed (depending on the weapon) with a flex slot or two for focusing on each weapon's more noticeable traits/needs.

Most unique build I have is a Heavy Attack Umbral Pennant build with Berserker, Corrupt Charge, Killing Blow and Gladiator Might and two 60/60 mods (Usually Corrosive because I use it to delete Grineer with Forced Slash procs and heavy damage).

But yeah, just take the most basic low-cost (because I only forma weapons 2-3 times at most usually) mod suite you can think of and you've got my mod setup most of the time.

Edit: Oh and for my Warframes it usually is just slapping in basic ability mods with a few slots dedicated to extra durability, I only use a handful of corrupted mods and usually only on frames that can afford a lost stat

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly even if I did link a build they usually are just Damage Mod+two/three 60/60 mods+Crit chance and damage (if applicable)+Multishot/Attack speed (depending on the weapon) with a flex slot or two for focusing on each weapon's more noticeable traits/needs.

Most unique build I have is a Heavy Attack Umbral Pennant build with Berserker, Corrupt Charge, Killing Blow and Gladiator Might and two 60/60 mods (Usually Corrosive because I use it to delete Grineer with Forced Slash procs and heavy damage).

But yeah, just take the most basic low-cost (because I only forma weapons 2-3 times at most usually) mod suite you can think of and you've got my mod setup most of the time.

Ah. No worries 👍

edit: Might try that Pennant in the future

[DrivaMain]

58 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

That's about the only thing Banshee can do. She always has extreme damage potential people just didn't see that because nuking map is the meta. People have already been using Banshee+Mesa combo for prolonged Index run.

Not quite. Banshee is not one of those "one trick pony" frames

1. I have a build that utilize sonic boom with augment as a way to knock back Demolyst and strip their armor in Disruption missions. 

2. You can utilize silence in certain boss fights to stop them from using abilities.

Banshee is in actually in a very decent place. It's just that it's problems are survivability and terrible 4th ability.

However, Banshee that somehow bypass a mechanic intended to prevent damage stacking is a problem. 

 

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

2. You can utilize silence in certain boss fights to stop them from using abilities.

Which bosses?

[DrivaMain]

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which bosses?

The ones I know of are Enemy Necramechs and Kuva Liches/Sisters (though they resist it after repeated cast).

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

The ones I know of are Enemy Necramechs and Kuva Liches/Sisters (though they resist it after repeated cast).

Silence is OP AF. 

Don't need to worry about repeated cast if you killed them on the first one. 

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, DrivaMain said:

The ones I know of are Enemy Necramechs and Kuva Liches/Sisters (though they resist it after repeated cast).

Ah, thought you meant capital 'b' Boss fights. 

[FrostDragoon]

16 hours ago, Kamachi said:

People throw the term "abuse" around so often. Using a well established Warframe ability is not abusing anything.

I think this bears repeating. Over and over again.

This game was always a puzzle of using the tools available to us to overcome challenges--find solutions to problems--that the devs put in front of us. Someone finding a good solution that works for them doesn't constitute "abuse," and shouldn't be nerfed just because it's effective. This mentality needs to stop. It's destroyed enough other games already.

[TheGrimCorsair]

26 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which bosses?

All Acolytes and liches, really most mini-boss invaders not named Stalker, Ambulas, it might suppress a couple of the Raptor's more eccentric attacks beyond whatever the basic shooting attack it has is. Maybe some others? It really depends on whether the game flags it as ability or not. Oh, for example, Lich grapple attacks aren't powers and don't get suppressed, but their movement skills and other spells are all completely sealed. Works on Necramechs, too, leaving them with just their weapons however it will not dispel an ability that was already active. If a non-boss enemy has a move (like Arctic Eximus bubbles, Fire Waves, riplines, grenade tosses, ground slams, summons, and the like) it will usually prevent the casting of it, provided they are under the bubble. It's really the only thing that makes building particularly high range benefit Silence as much as it does anything else.

I'm reasonably convinced the DR liches have is a hidden refreshing ability as I've engaged them after clearing some enemies near them with Silence and plenty of Sonar stacks and waxed them, yet under the same conditions where I beeline straight for them, attacks will do a tiny amount of damage and then just immediately do the expected 300k and pop them like a balloon. That said, I've only hunted 6 or so since the changes, and need to make a closer study of it.

 

EDIT

To stay on topic, yeah, the multiplicative stacking is broke as #*!%. DE already knows, one of the things they've talked about many times is how much they still have things that end up in buckets multiplying things they aren't supposed to and the one Warframe that can literally and regularly reach the point where the 32-bit calculations for damage break is definitely known the them.

Will they change Sonar? Probably at some point when it matters enough to do so. Watch the Banshee-use statistics and see if suddenly 50%+ of player base adopts using her for these missions (I doubt it'll happen).

[FrostDragoon]

46 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Not quite. Banshee is not one of those "one trick pony" frames

1. I have a build that utilize sonic boom with augment as a way to knock back Demolyst and strip their armor in Disruption missions. 

2. You can utilize silence in certain boss fights to stop them from using abilities.

Banshee is in actually in a very decent place. It's just that it's problems are survivability and terrible 4th ability.

However, Banshee that somehow bypass a mechanic intended to prevent damage stacking is a problem. 

 

No, it isn't. This came about because the way DE went about making liches tankier was a bad approach. They used a cleaver instead of a scalpel because they were afraid of people cheesing them with Mechs--which I shouldn't need to remind you (and everyone else here) was only possible because they also made the mistake of putting liches in Railjack. Neither of those things were necessary, so you can't blame the players for finding a way around it, and you shouldn't punish them for it either.

[SenorClipClop]

One one hand, I see how fast Banshee roasts through Lich/Sister health bars thanks to Sonar, and I know DE wants to make a boss with some staying power.

On the other hand, Banshee was criminally underused before this, Sonar is not the only way to make this fight short and easy, and multiplying damage is really the only thing Banshee has going for her. She still has to contend with no built-in survivability and the extra damage requires at least a bit of aiming.

If a nerf were inbound, I would hope it comes in the form of capping how much Armor can be stripped from the Nemesis enemy.

[MixtheBlender]

You know the funniest thing is that this is how DE created FOMO from playerbase. Player too strong? Oh no, I have to enjoy this moment as much as I can before it's taken away from me. Well, no time for more words folks. I gotta farm as much weapons as I can before the nerf. I'm not going back to the time when I need to land a billion shots to kill a rank 5 lich/sister only for it to sneeze and one shots me.

[BansheePrime]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The ones I know of are Enemy Necramechs and Kuva Liches/Sisters (though they resist it after repeated cast).

Most importantly it also disables certain other actions like harpoons. Screw harpoons.

[Marvelous_A]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Not quite. Banshee is not one of those "one trick pony" frames

1. I have a build that utilize sonic boom with augment as a way to knock back Demolyst and strip their armor in Disruption missions. 

2. You can utilize silence in certain boss fights to stop them from using abilities.

Banshee is in actually in a very decent place. It's just that it's problems are survivability and terrible 4th ability.

However, Banshee that somehow bypass a mechanic intended to prevent damage stacking is a problem. 

 

Maybe but she's still one of the least used warframe because she's largely just useful for the damage amplifying in a very few situations. Armor strip and CC are not rare, Sonar is the only reason you'd be using Banshee over other warframes.

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Will they change Sonar? Probably at some point when it matters enough to do so. Watch the Banshee-use statistics and see if suddenly 50%+ of player base adopts using her for these missions (I doubt it'll happen).

I fully anticipate this will become the case (the new meta). It's what happens when bad design decisions force us into specific options that we wouldn't otherwise use.

Edit:

Before this bone-headed decision to move the final confrontation to Railjack, there was quite a lot of diversity in what I saw people bringing to these fights--indeed, even what I was bringing to them. However, because of this decision, and their anticipation of people using Mechs to cheese it, they overly buffed the liches' defenses. Maybe this could be okay if their damage wasn't so over the top, but it almost has to be due to all the ways we can mitigate or avoid it. What we see is the vision DE has--these epic fights that last several minutes and require players to make a real effort--completely conflicts with the actual design and state of the game, only to further widen that gap with this Railjack nonsense. The bigger issue I see is that it also widens the gap between the veterans and newer players, which brings up concerns that newer players may get frustrated and just quit.

They really need to reverse this Railjack decision for liches along with the buffed defenses. They were in a mostly good place before that.