Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

I'm only disagreeing with removing the final confrontation from RJ. 

It just seems tacked on, carries unnecessary drawbacks, and has nothing to do with liches anyway. Similarly, I think putting Sisters behind Granum Void was a terrible, terrible choice. It was solely to inflate the time requirement because they didn't have as many Tenet weapons. Nothing more. The story/lore aspect is only an artificial contrivance to justify it, not a legitimate reason for it to be this way.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

BUT - Banshee is still the most extreme outlier in this case. If you get just 3 overlaps with a 11.5x multiplier, you're looking at ~1520x damage multiplier. How are those numbers not bonkers ANYWHERE?

From my Banshee experience there cannot be 3 overlaps. That doesn't mean 2 is "not enough".

Banshee is relict from the past times where true glass cannon archetypes actualy made sense.

[FrostDragoon]

7 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

From my Banshee experience there cannot be 3 overlaps. That doesn't mean 2 is "not enough".

Banshee is relict from the past times where true glass cannon archetypes actualy made sense.

She's still really glassy, tbh. When the stun from her 3 wears off, she's in trouble if there are still a bunch of dudes standing around looking at you.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2021-07-23 at 2:29 AM, DrivaMain said:

It bothers me because players are getting around a game mechanic designed to combat these type of tactics. You know these type of things will not go unnoticed by DE. Like come on, Level 5 Nemesises getting downed in less than a few button clicks? You know these boss type enemies aren't designed to be one shotted.

No boss is designed to be One shotted . Likewise no boss encounter is strictly designed to be trivialized.

That said, there is no boss encounter without invincible stages in this game that can't be trivialized by some frames unless DE disables powers outright. 

On 2021-07-23 at 2:19 AM, DrivaMain said:

This thread is purely talking about Boss TTK (time to kill). If you want to talk about X cheese tactic that does not have to do with TTK for example invinsibility or immortality against the bosses, this is not the place.

So we should focus on Sonar but ignore the multitude of other tactics and mechanics that allow engagements to be trivialized instead?

That seems like a double standard to me...

We all know that Banshee is niche enough for this to be a non-issue.

So what if they give Banshee and her players center stage for a few months after 8 years?  

[Tellmeninetails]

also de if you want tenno to do less damage use the puncture status you made!

[(NSW)Greybones]

Hrm. 🤔 I see a lot of players saying this is a rare moment for Banshee to shine.

How does she fare in the Grendel missions?

[RyAn0099]

liches should pulse nullify like disruption demos /s

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hrm. 🤔 I see a lot of players saying this is a rare moment for Banshee to shine.

How does she fare in the Grendel missions?

Depends. She's squishy af. If you're with a party, she's probably okay. Solo? Might be pretty tough.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, RyAn0099 said:

liches should pulse nullify like disruption demos /s

Absolutely not. This kind of stuff needs to stop being in the game, not see more of it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Depends. She's squishy af. If you're with a party, she's probably okay. Solo? Might be pretty tough.

The enemies don’t have any bonuses or anything, right?

level 40 is usually not bad at all

edit: Hm. I guess it would play into her “Glass Cannon” nature

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The enemies don’t have any bonuses or anything, right?

level 40 is usually not bad at all

edit: Hm. I guess it would play into her “Glass Cannon” nature

The problem in that mode is that you have no mods of any kind. Your defenses are paper, energy income is abysmal, you can't use gear or operator, most weapons do basically no damage, and her CC is very short-lived. The only saving grace is you can still use augments, but I don't think that will save her.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The problem in that mode is that you have no mods of any kind. Your defenses are paper, energy income is abysmal, you can't use gear or operator, most weapons do basically no damage, and her CC is very short-lived. The only saving grace is you can still use augments, but I don't think that will save her.

Hrm.

I mean… I fight level 60s with Loki and no invisibility and no survival mods just fine. Usually I’m full-up on Exilus or Augment mods

edit: 🤔 Though it’d depend on the mission. Some missions can be pretty tough

double edit: Ooooh, the weapons!

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The problem in that mode is that you have no mods of any kind. Your defenses are paper, energy income is abysmal, you can't use gear or operator, most weapons do basically no damage, and her CC is very short-lived. The only saving grace is you can still use augments, but I don't think that will save her.

I had an absolute brainfart regarding the weapons; usually I’ll need matched elements or a Serration/Hornet Strike to take down 40-45s comfortably.

Hrmmmm, okay okay. I see now. Makes me all the more curious to try, definitely, and I think I can see how it may get tough

[FrostDragoon]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I had an absolute brainfart regarding the weapons; usually I’ll need matched elements or a Serration/Hornet Strike to take down 40-45s comfortably.

Hrmmmm, okay okay. I see now. Makes me all the more curious to try, definitely, and I think I can see how it may get tough

Yeah, this is why I was saying it depends on if solo or in party. If you have a good squad to cover each other's weaknesses, it's not that hard. Trinity/Harrow/Protea, Wisp, Octavia/Ivara... lots of ways to go about it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Yeah, this is why I was saying it depends on if solo or in party. If you have a good squad to cover each other's weaknesses, it's not that hard. Trinity/Harrow/Protea, Wisp, Octavia/Ivara... lots of ways to go about it.

Sounds like fun. I’ll be trying solo first, and then with my partner (who would also like Grendel)

[FrostDragoon]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Sounds like fun. I’ll be trying solo first, and then with my partner (who would also like Grendel)

Grendel sounds like a rough go of it, lol. Good luck.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Grendel sounds like a rough go of it, lol. Good luck.

We’ll see 😋. Thanks!

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

No boss is designed to be One shotted . Likewise no boss encounter is strictly designed to be trivialized.

That said, there is no boss encounter without invincible stages in this game that can't be trivialized by some frames unless DE disables powers outright. 

So we should focus on Sonar but ignore the multitude of other tactics and mechanics that allow engagements to be trivialized instead?

That seems like a double standard to me...

We all know that Banshee is niche enough for this to be a non-issue.

So what if they give Banshee and her players center stage for a few months after 8 years?  

Not only that, this banshee used subsumed abilities to reach the damage potential she did in the video OP showed. So it's even more of a non issue and niche in the fact that base banshee can't even do what OP is complaining about. 

[FrostDragoon]

5 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Not only that, this banshee used subsumed abilities to reach the damage potential she did in the video OP showed. So it's even more of a non issue and niche in the fact that base banshee can't even do what OP is complaining about. 

The funny part is that Roar arguably isn't even the best option for that slot. There are arguments to be made for Rest/Rage, Eclipse, Gloom, and Elemental Ward.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Not only that, this banshee used subsumed abilities to reach the damage potential she did in the video OP showed. So it's even more of a non issue and niche in the fact that base banshee can't even do what OP is complaining about. 

As long as players have the ability to exponentially increase their base attributes(and stack on those increases) some frame will always be able to find holes in mechanics because of how diverse the frames are.

People always make out like Nullifiers are the worst thing DE could come up with, when in truth, it would be a reliable full damage reflection Boss.

You could float on the buckets of tears that would create... 

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

People always make out like Nullifiers are the worst thing DE could come up with, when in truth, it would be a reliable full damage reflection Boss.

It would be the same principle, so equally bad. Enemies that directly undercut the purpose of your arsenal and ability to use it are pretty lazy/poor design choices. Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, adaptive armor, energy drain. These are lame and annoying, not fun.

[Aldain]

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It would be the same principle, so equally bad. Enemies that directly undercut the purpose of your arsenal and ability to use it are pretty lazy/poor design choices. Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, adaptive armor, energy drain. These are lame and annoying, not fun.

Of course there is always the thing to remember that they only exist because of equally lazy/poor design choices in the player's favor most of the time.

We have infinite energy with our kiddo dash, so nullifiers/ability immunity/energy drain have to exist in some fashion so a handful of frames can't just erase anything before it even gets to the development phase. We have hysterical damage multipliers on so many things that adaptive DR is the only way things can even pretend to stand up to the highest end of power.

That's why I've lately been in favor of a stat squish across the board, for both players and enemies. Of course as many are quick to remind me, this would be an absolutely insane undertaking and would cause an untold amount of complaints across many parts of the fanbase, but honestly it is either that or we just keep drifting from new content to new content as DE's desperate attempts to make the content not irrelevant on arrival has cascading effects on all parts of the game while trying to prevent the top 5% of the power scale from utterly obliterating it (often to mixed success at best).

[Rey153]

Il y a 1 heure, Padre_Akais a dit :

 

People always make out like Nullifiers are the worst thing DE could come up with, when in truth, it would be a reliable full damage reflection Boss.

You could float on the buckets of tears that would create... 

Please I already want to smash the screen vs Acolyte insanely op mag bubble in Steel Path 

 

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

17 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It would be the same principle, so equally bad. Enemies that directly undercut the purpose of your arsenal and ability to use it are pretty lazy/poor design choices. Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, adaptive armor, energy drain. These are lame and annoying, not fun.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that piece... I don't see those mechanics as any of the things you mentioned tbh.
I see them as an 'attention check' at worst with their most annoying aspect being that their abilities can go through walls and floors at times.

I, personally, don't see a mechanic that could one shot an overzealous player as a bad thing because it's the one thing we have the most of. 

That said, I can completely understand how another's mileage may vary on the matter though.

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I, personally, don't see a mechanic that could one shot an overzealous player as a bad thing because it's the one thing we have the most of. 

I'd like to comment on this specifically only to note that such mechanics can have spillover effects for everyone, not just the targeted player.

If you aren't running an infinite energy build, large numbers of energy leeches can make it impossible to even use abilities at all, even something as simple as Excalibur's Radial Blind. However they exist because they have to counter other such frames and those that rely on Quick Thinking to be functionally immortal for example.

That negative spillover is a major problem that the content design of late keeps running into and, in my opinion, is best represented by The Wolf of Saturn Six, which was designed to counter basically every overpowered aspect with the exception of massive critical damage; he was CC immune, Status immune, had invincible 3 AoE damage mooks who at best could be crowd controlled and DR so massive that without a very specific counter weapon he was basically unkillable in any reasonable timeframe.

The result was a boss that took only a few minutes on average for the top 5% of players to kill, but wound up being a nightmare for anyone else he showed up for, on an invading boss no less. Obviously we haven't quite hit that apex of spillover, but the new adaptive DR on Liches is a similar thing, in a (vain) attempt to prevent the higher end of the power scale from utterly dismantling everything it wound up having a negative effect elsewhere.

That's also where damage scaling comes in, because DE has to account for functional immortality and armor blob frames it artificially drives up the damage output to levels that even mildly durable frames start to be made of paper.