Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

46 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It would be the same principle, so equally bad. Enemies that directly undercut the purpose of your arsenal and ability to use it are pretty lazy/poor design choices. Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, adaptive armor, energy drain. These are lame and annoying, not fun.

Tbf I don't mind those design choices. As the person before me said. They serve mainly as attention checks and it's mostly an oh S#&$ moment when you let a comba/scrambus through and it disables your ability or let their aura hit you. Nullifiers are almost always seen before you enter their bubble so another no brainer.

I find Sentient damage adaptation as fine because it encourages you to build multiple damage types on all weapons although since it has been a few years since their release, most people just brute force the damage. Energy drain is well energy drain. I don't have a problem with it per se but it gets really annoying and frustrating when the game constantly throws energy drainers at you and you can't find them in the horde a la infested eximus and ancient disruptors.

[Rakosta_Kai]

57 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'd like to comment on this specifically only to note that such mechanics can have spillover effects for everyone, not just the targeted player.

Reflects tend to reflect the damage back to the party that sent it specifically.

58 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If you aren't running an infinite energy build, large numbers of energy leeches can make it impossible to even use abilities at all, even something as simple as Excalibur's Radial Blind.

That, funnily enough, isn't terribly abnormal and is actually a lot less pronounced now than when those mobs were first introduced. Likewise, the effects of the mechanic didn't affect players equally then either.

Infinite energy wasn't a thing then as players only had access to Energy Siphon and pizzas, you see...
Part of the reason why I rocked so steadily with Rhino for so many years is that he allowed me wiggle room from mechanics like that (I'm a "defense first" player though...)

That said, I am not so much advocating the introduction of a new mechanic insomuch as I am saying that people would cry about that one profusely because they are so focused on huge DPS.

[ShogunGunshow]

It is basically impossible for DE to balance things because they have released content for years and years with no overall plan or design philosophy. I doubt they are even aware of all the ways that they've introduced to break the game.

Doesn't matter how much armor you pile on, we have 100% armor strip. Doesn't matter how much health they have, we have ways of amping ours by a 100x and more. Damage they deal? Please, we have ways of being straight-up unkillable. 

It'd take as many years to untangle the mess that is the game's balance and return it to something approaching reasonable. And that ain't gonna happen. So just kick back and enjoy. Might be a nerf here, a nerf there, but the Warframe community will always find a way to turn the latest 'super hard boss' into a joke. 

[NovusKnight]

You simply cant handle the concept of a glass cannon. Sorry.

 

I do not give a S#&$ about your HURR DURR UNAIRU CHROMA. It does not earn my respect because all it is is a chunky statsheet of big fat numbers, all of them passive. Chroma has big chonker danage multipliers, yes, but he also has big chonker armor and DR / tank potential.

Banshee does not.

Banshee is designed in such a way that every encounter is a DPS race - you either evaporate an enemy or die on the spot. If you cannot comprehend how a frame that has similar stats to Ivara or Loki struggles to survive due to lacking invisibility DR or CC and think it is OP she can kill things in missions where you are one mistake aeay from dying, then i am sorry but you do not understand how balancing works. On top of all this, YOU HAVE TO AIM using banshee.

So no, i do not care that your feelings are hurt on the fact that banshee mains like me can take a fragile frame against a tanky boss and damage it faster than you can kill it by pushing two buttons exactly once and then mashing E with your brain turned off.

Banshee is incredibly powerful.

Banshee is possibly the most powerful gun wielder in the game bar none.

Yet very few people even try using her because she requires almost flawless gameplay to survive higher difficulty content.

She is a skill gate character, with a very high skill floor to even start using successfully. You are seeing people on the upper end of the skill ceiling, which for Banshee is *astronomically high*, use this frame to its fullest. You are not seeing a bug, nor are you dealing with exploiters. This is how banshee always worked. She even has an augment specific to facilitate sonar usage and stacking.

 

So please for the love of god do not ask to nerf one of the few franes that require fast hands and a working frontal lobe to succeed with.

 

[DrivaMain]

10 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

So we should focus on Sonar but ignore the multitude of other tactics and mechanics that allow engagements to be trivialized instead?

That seems like a double standard to me...

We all know that Banshee is niche enough for this to be a non-issue.

So what if they give Banshee and her players center stage for a few months after 8 years?  

Not exactly. Just tactics that allows you to just "haha a few button press boss dead go brrrr". I put it there to stop people from derailing the thread too much.

Yes I know a lot of tactics that made the fight brain dead easier. Did you know that Revenant's mesmer skin stun is not affected by the diminishing returns effectively stun locking the sisters or liches? Oops, looks like I slipped up, looks like that tactic will be no longer viable anymore..

Would you rather change the outlier now that cause a small backlash or change it 6 months later where every player and their grandmas invest on this tactic and then they whine and cry because of their "Muh Investment"?

[NecroPed]

If i remember right DE said they like some frames being a bit niche. 

I personally think that a warframe making a particular thing much easier is a good thing. There are already many warframes which trivialises a game mode and they're kinda built in to the warframe. Mesa trivialises defense. In fact many frames trivialise defense missions. Loot frames trivialise survival. Wisp trivialises defection. The list goes on. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

51 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Not exactly. Just tactics that allows you to just "haha a few button press boss dead go brrrr". I put it there to stop people from derailing the thread too much.

With respect, that'd put you squarely in the double standards department, imo, then—Because any specific use of a mechanic or strategy to achieve a desired purpose qualifies as a tactic.

If you want to start asking for nerfs because frames are trivializing specific content I can guarantee you that there's a metric ton of frames who can all get that work too...

Unfortunately, this is an instance where picking and choosing what frame to pick on really just feels like a case of Motes and Beams dude.

 

Additionally, I wouldn't really call a niche underplayed frame being able to dunk on niche finite content an "outlier" worthy of remedy.  I'd also call anyone willing to plug the hours into leveling Banshee up to pull that stunt someone with entirely too much free time.

 

[Orblit]

Rarely seen that, saw it once, still took longer then me and another guy "abusing" heavy attacks to their face

[Learicorn]

Why is this an issue? Even without Banshee's sonar i deplete a lich/sister's health bar segment in seconds with any average high firerate weapon built correctly. They're not meant to be super hard to take down dude, calm down.

[DrivaMain]

2 hours ago, Orblit said:

Rarely seen that, saw it once, still took longer then me and another guy "abusing" heavy attacks to their face

Must be region differences. In the Asia region, Banshee users are much common in the showdown gamemode. In fact there are a lot of public matches I went to where I am the only non Banshee player in the squad.

 

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Additionally, I wouldn't really call a niche underplayed frame being able to dunk on niche finite content an "outlier" worthy of remedy. 

It is an outlier tho. Sonar being the only ability able to stack multiplicatively with each other is kind of bonkers. You are talking damage stacks going x5 -> x25 -> x125 -> x625 and so on. Sonar is basically the old condition overload at this point.

DE immediately nerfed Limbo and Khora because they managed to cheese Scarlet Spear. 

However, my optimistic side said that what DE will do is fix the DR math to affect Sonar stacking or make Sonar stacks additively.

[FrostDragoon]

16 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Must be region differences. In the Asia region, Banshee users are much common in the showdown gamemode. In fact there are a lot of public matches I went to where I am the only non Banshee player in the squad.

 

It is an outlier tho. Sonar being the only ability able to stack multiplicatively with each other is kind of bonkers. You are talking damage stacks going x5 -> x25 -> x125 -> x625 and so on. Sonar is basically the old condition overload at this point.

DE immediately nerfed Limbo and Khora because they managed to cheese Scarlet Spear. 

However, my optimistic side said that what DE will do is fix the DR math to affect Sonar stacking or make Sonar stacks additively.

Limbo's entire mechanic is an outlier. No other frame does what he does. Should that be "fixed" too?

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

It is basically impossible for DE to balance things because they have released content for years and years with no overall plan or design philosophy.

Yareli: "You don't say."

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Limbo's entire mechanic is an outlier. No other frame does what he does. Should that be "fixed" too?

For the same reason they fixed Wukong's Defy, yes. It's not healthy for the game to have nigh-perfect brainless immortality at the press of a button. Or, in the case of Inaros, at the press of no button.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

For the same reason they fixed Wukong's Defy, yes. It's not healthy for the game to have nigh-perfect brainless immortality at the press of a button. Or, in the case of Inaros, at the press of no button.

You must be new around here. This game isn't--and never was--about "balance."

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You must be new around here. This game isn't--and never was--about "balance."

Doesn't balance happen in the mission? When I do a level 40 mission and I'm fighting at a level 40 level, I'm not expecting to get level 180 SP enemies without an option or answer that the game would expect me to have access to amongst the tools I brought to the fight in the first place 🤔

edit: Hm. I wonder if this is why they made it so that Lichs had a chance to appear in the missions that had enemies on their level, instead of someone doing a level 15 Mobile Defense and suddenly their level 4 Lich appears

[Tiltskillet]

36 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

In fact there are a lot of public matches I went to where I am the only non Banshee player in the squad.

That's totally normal.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

You must be new around here. This game isn't--and never was--about "balance."

Need I remind you what you yourself said? Apparently.

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Limbo's entire mechanic is an outlier. No other frame does what he does. Should that be "fixed" too?

"Should". Not "Will". I hold no illusion that Limbo will be balanced, and you're laughably wrong to think I do. I mean, just listen to how they described the Stasis change versus what they did!

Quote

But, because complete time-halting for enemies within the Rift is akin to godly power, the duration of the ability has been shortened overall - from base 30 seconds to 15 seconds. This is of course affected by Mods.

They didn't decrease this "godly power", they didn't reduce its range. No, they just made you cast it twice as often. On a frame for whom energy is rarely a problem. If they had made Stasis a base 45% slow, requiring 225% Strength for a full freeze, that would've been a decent nerf. Or made it only affect enemies in a smaller radius, or whatever. But no, "press X every 15 seconds (30+ modded) for godhood" it is.

Even if I was completely new around here, the entirety of Yareli's kit proves that balance is not a priority here. But as said, I'm not new. But speaking of being new around here, I'm gonna take the opportunity to teach you something.  Hover over my profile pic or visit my profile and you can see the exact date I joined. Joined the forum, that is. I've been playing for longer than that.

[FrostDragoon]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Doesn't balance happen in the mission? When I do a level 40 mission and I'm fighting at a level 40 level, I'm not expecting to get level 180 SP enemies without an option or answer that the game would expect me to have access to amongst the tools I brought to the fight in the first place 🤔

You're conflating two kinds of balance with that argument.

* The early quote I replied to is talking about mechanical balance.

* The argument you're making now is talking about numerical balance.

DE does neither very well, which is why they use a D3-style of "balance." Which is to say, power-creep isn't that much of a consideration if it means players are having more fun and can experiment with more stuff--which leads to more play time--good for the goose, good for the gander. The way they get around this is with infinite scaling of enemies, just like D3's Greater Rifts. It doesn't matter how strong you get because you will eventually encounter the content that can stop you (with some exceptions).

Perhaps someone could argue that those exceptions should exist, especially as they tend to rely on infinite feedback loops (most of these are mechanics based), but I think DE ultimately doesn't care about this either because even if a player goes to the level cap of 9999, the rewards are the same for staying 4000 minutes at once as if they had instead gone 40 minutes 100 times (or possible favoring the 40 minute runs since it's easier to kill faster). DE basically lets you play how you want in this regard and it doesn't really hurt anyone that it's the case.

What DE doesn't do that much is what other games (often foolishly) attempt to do--perfectly balance everything in the game with regard to everything else in the game. This is what ruined League of Legends, is currently pissing off the Path of Exile community (because it's being done badly), and has set many other games into the endless death spiral of chasing this elusive, subjective concept.

Back to the first quote,

31 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

For the same reason they fixed Wukong's Defy, yes. It's not healthy for the game to have nigh-perfect brainless immortality at the press of a button. Or, in the case of Inaros, at the press of no button.

For Warframe, it actually might be. This game caters to a huge variety of players, not just the try-hards. They have tried to reduce "afk gameplay" over the years, but they still introduce more of it as they go. Anything your frame does without you having to continually tell it to can be seen this way. Equinox 4 (day form), Xaku 2, Nekros 4, Octavia 1+2 combo, Mirage 2 (with augment), etc. Player interaction is very low in these cases, but many players love them. If anything, the idea of "balance" this person is trying to push doesn't belong in this game.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Even if I was completely new around here, the entirety of Yareli's kit proves that balance is not a priority here. But as said, I'm not new. But speaking of being new around here, I'm gonna take the opportunity to teach you something.  Hover over my profile pic or visit my profile and you can see the exact date I joined. Joined the forum, that is. I've been playing for longer than that.

You're definitely new if you think I didn't know about that and took that phrase so literally. Anyone who has been using the internet for about 4 seconds knows that kind of thing is rhetorical.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You're conflating two kinds of balance with that argument.

* The early quote I replied to is talking about mechanical balance.

* The argument you're making now is talking about numerical balance.

DE does neither very well, which is why they use a D3-style of "balance." Which is to say, power-creep isn't that much of a consideration if it means players are having more fun and can experiment with more stuff--which leads to more play time--good for the goose, good for the gander. The way they get around this is with infinite scaling of enemies, just like D3's Greater Rifts. It doesn't matter how strong you get because you will eventually encounter the content that can stop you (with some exceptions).

Perhaps someone could argue that those exceptions should exist, especially as they tend to rely on infinite feedback loops (most of these are mechanics based), but I think DE ultimately doesn't care about this either because even if a player goes to the level cap of 9999, the rewards are the same for staying 4000 minutes at once as if they had instead gone 40 minutes 100 times (or possible favoring the 40 minute runs since it's easier to kill faster). DE basically lets you play how you want in this regard and it doesn't really hurt anyone that it's the case.

What DE doesn't do that much is what other games (often foolishly) attempt to do--perfectly balance everything in the game with regard to everything else in the game. This is what ruined League of Legends, is currently pissing off the Path of Exile community (because it's being done badly), and has set many other games into the endless death spiral of chasing this elusive, subjective concept.

Ah, cool cool.

🤔 I think it might be a combination of the two in many cases (I recently had to use the Ramparts in the Kril/Vor fight because while the impact-heavy loadout I brought was good enough for most of the mission, I couldn't safely deal with the bosses with it), but it is true I was mostly thinking about numbers when I responded

edit: Might educate myself on the actual comment you were responding to 😋

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You're definitely new if you think I didn't know about that and took that phrase so literally. Anyone who has been using the internet for about 4 seconds knows that kind of thing is rhetorical.

I agree, you're definitely new since you thought I didn't know that and took my reply so literally. Welcome to the Internet, mate.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I agree, you're definitely new since you thought I didn't know that and took my reply so literally. Welcome to the Internet, mate.

Ah, "no u." An oldie, but a goodie. 👍

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Ah, "no u." An oldie, but a goodie. 👍

Ain't nothin' wrong with the classics 👍

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Ain't nothin' wrong with the classics 👍

😆

[(NSW)Greybones]

*deleted*