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Railjack 3.0 still has the problems of 2.0, and more.


OllyDG
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DE, you seem to do this thing where you make an incredibly solid and fun foundation with a few flaws, then throw the entire thing out for a far worse foundation that *still has the same flaws* when the original is not 100% perfect. Ignoring the obvious "needing to forma plexus" cashgrab, here's a comparison of issues in 2.0 compared to 3.0

Railjack 2.0 issues:

-Content is disconnected from all other content
-People don't really work together as a team
-There's very clear "superior" gear and all other gear is worthless
-Lack of railjack nodes

Railjack 3.0 issues:

-Content is still disconnected from everything else, though very slightly less so due to railjack defense and the like
-The Plexus actively discourages working as a team with people below your gear level, as they'll be dead weight.
-The removal of the Forge also makes it so there's barely any teamwork beyond shooting at the same guys (which tbf is just warframe)
-There's still superior railjack gear
-You now also have superior *warframe* gear for railjack, as you now use warframe energy for railjack abilities. You now have to either make a bunch of energy pizzas or get off guns every 5 seconds to spam zenurik dash when it previously just worked.
-Still no new railjack missions


Overall, you've made railjack more tedious for veterans, and more hostile for newbies, while still leaving it a content island. Most of these changes would be fine, but warframe energy for abilities in particular is so baffling that I have no clue why you implemented it.

Edited by OllyDG
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50 minutes ago, OllyDG said:

You now have to either make a bunch of energy pizzas or get off guns every 5 seconds to spam zenurik dash

Or you use Lavos, which DE have declared to be the one and only true railjack pilot or gunner. Why they chose to do that, I don't know. But he is objectively the superior option. 13 seconds between missile swarms, no need to get out of your seat, no need to use pizzas.

Of course, they'll just nerf him like they completely massacred Hildryn as a choice when it was pointed out that everyone would pick her at the start (because it takes a full 37 seconds for the shield cost to reset to base after firing a missile swarm). That won't fix the hard dependence on zenurik and frames with high base energy + flow - meaning that Nekros, Nidus, Frost, Valkyr and anything else that doesn't need large amounts of energy to work get utterly shafted.

Yeah, tying railjack energy to warframe energy was a really stupid idea. Why can't they just tie it to the reactor instead? That would actually make sense, but nooooo.

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I’ll be honest, I kinda preferred Railjack 1.0 to either rework, except for some obvious improvements like Crew, making the ship smaller, and changing the wreckage system. 1.0 was actually challenging with a good loadout, and there were enough things happening on the ship in combat for an engineer player to be viable. That was a fun role, you could even get on a gun when you finished shipboard tasks so it wasn’t like you were missing out on shooting. But it was decided that if you aren’t actively shooting at things all the time then you aren’t having fun, so you don’t need to ever look at the ship unless you’re quickly crafting Dome Charges. Railjack lost 90% of its teamwork appeal with 2.0, because there isn’t any need to do anything other than mop up harmless goons and occasionally catapult to an objective location.

The energy thing was apparently to reduce confusion over how many different resources there were, but flux wasn’t exactly difficult to understand so I don’t see why they made the system so much worse. Now Railjacks have the same busted energy economy as the base game, with always-on Zenurik or Pizzas. It really feels like we lose nothing by reverting this change or reworking it into a new-improved thing. /rant

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1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

I’ll be honest, I kinda preferred Railjack 1.0 to either rework, except for some obvious improvements like Crew, making the ship smaller, and changing the wreckage system. 1.0 was actually challenging with a good loadout, and there were enough things happening on the ship in combat for an engineer player to be viable. That was a fun role, you could even get on a gun when you finished shipboard tasks so it wasn’t like you were missing out on shooting. But it was decided that if you aren’t actively shooting at things all the time then you aren’t having fun, so you don’t need to ever look at the ship unless you’re quickly crafting Dome Charges. Railjack lost 90% of its teamwork appeal with 2.0, because there isn’t any need to do anything other than mop up harmless goons and occasionally catapult to an objective location.

The energy thing was apparently to reduce confusion over how many different resources there were, but flux wasn’t exactly difficult to understand so I don’t see why they made the system so much worse. Now Railjacks have the same busted energy economy as the base game, with always-on Zenurik or Pizzas. It really feels like we lose nothing by reverting this change or reworking it into a new-improved thing. /rant

honestly yeah, railjack 1.0 was my favourite too but i'm willing to accept that im the minority here and for most people railjack 2.0 was better. still not convinced anyone ever asked for railjack 3.0 though.

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20 minutes ago, Schwitzer said:

To be fair, they did introduce Volatile.

Volatile is not really Railjack.     Its just a normal mission after "Railjack taxi" intro. 

Railjack mission is when Ship itself is heavily involved in the process.  A mission that cant be done without RJ, where it plays a key role (there is only one RN, when you need to use Tunguska to blow up Obelisk reactors...and that happens only at the end and barely worth mentioning)

Even if you play it "on foot", Ship still must be very relevant....For example, it can dock to the Obelisk/Pillar/Galleon and you just steal Cargo containers, while ship is being bombarded both from inside and outside.  And you have to protect, repair and use "boosters" to speed up the cargo loading process.    That would be RJ Defense mission.

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1 hour ago, OllyDG said:

Railjack 3.0 issues:

-Content is still disconnected from everything else, though very slightly less so due to railjack defense and the like
-The Plexus actively discourages working as a team with people below your gear level, as they'll be dead weight.
-The removal of the Forge also makes it so there's barely any teamwork beyond shooting at the same guys (which tbf is just warframe)
-There's still superior railjack gear
-You now also have superior *warframe* gear for railjack, as you now use warframe energy for railjack abilities. You now have to either make a bunch of energy pizzas or get off guns every 5 seconds to spam zenurik dash when it previously just worked.
-Still no new railjack missions


Overall, you've made railjack more tedious for veterans, and more hostile for newbies, while still leaving it a content island. Most of these changes would be fine, but warframe energy for abilities in particular is so baffling that I have no clue why you implemented it.

  • It's not fully disconnected anymore though. There's a bunch of gear you can only get from RJ + there was ALWAYS indoor stuff to do in RJ, which means that your Warframe gear always mattered there. So how is it still disconnected? If you say "well when I have all the gear from there, why would I go back to RJ?" - well, isn't that true for ANY mission that has limitted gear to hand out? Besides, I think DE will add a lot more content in the future which relies on RJ. So, give it time.
  • Eh, I feel the Plexus is pretty good. Have had no issue with it.
  • Forge was tedious and boring. There's still plenty of teamwork to be had: FA + pilot need to work together for quick Crewship takedowns, while the other 2 players go for sidemissions - which the pilot can also help with (blast the radiators on the outside thing on Grineer Skirmishers). They can also do repairs, repel boarders and shoot with turrets. I think the current need for coop is in a good spot.
    • If you make it even more reliant on coop, the missions are gonna get extremely frustrating with bad players (it's already frustrating when you play with people who don't know what they should be doing, as it slows down the missions immensly).
  • Warframe gear issue is very true. Imo, every Warframe should just work with cooldowns a la Lavos. He's the most fun and fluid to use for RJ, imo.
  • There'll be more RJ missions in the future, I bet (I mean, they JUST added more!).
    • However, I personally don't really like the Corpus implementation of "adding more missions" to RJ, which so far are just an RJ startup for an otherwise regular mission. The Grineer's Skirmish missions are still the best, imo, as you have lots of RJ-things AND indoor stuff to do.
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1 minute ago, Azamagon said:
  • It's not fully disconnected anymore though. There's a bunch of gear you can only get from RJ + there was ALWAYS indoor stuff to do in RJ, which means that your Warframe gear always mattered there. So how is it still disconnected? If you say "well when I have all the gear from there, why would I go back to RJ?" - well, isn't that true for ANY mission that has limitted gear to hand out? Besides, I think DE will add a lot more content in the future which relies on RJ. So, give it time.
  • Eh, I feel the Plexus is pretty good. Have had no issue with it.
  • Forge was tedious and boring. There's still plenty of teamwork to be had: FA + pilot need to work together for quick Crewship takedowns, while the other 2 players go for sidemissions - which the pilot can also help with (blast the radiators on the outside thing on Grineer Skirmishers). They can also do repairs, repel boarders and shoot with turrets. I think the current need for coop is in a good spot.
    • If you make it even more reliant on coop, the missions are gonna get extremely frustrating with bad players (it's already frustrating when you play with people who don't know what they should be doing, as it slows down the missions immensly).
  • Warframe gear issue is very true. Imo, every Warframe should just work with cooldowns a la Lavos. He's the most fun and fluid to use for RJ, imo.
  • There'll be more RJ missions in the future, I bet (I mean, they JUST added more!).
    • However, I personally don't really like the Corpus implementation of "adding more missions" to RJ, which so far are just an RJ startup for an otherwise regular mission. The Grineer's Skirmish missions are still the best, imo, as you have lots of RJ-things AND indoor stuff to do.

-I was more meaning the resources being disconnected, but nonetheless good point. If DE is planning to add more stuff, then it's fine. 
-The Plexus is great among players at an equal gear level, awful otherwise. Either a noob joins a high level mission and is total dead weight, or a pro joins a noob's mission and takes the limelight for themselves (which is a-ok if the noob's cool with it, but speaking from experience as a low level player it does sometimes suck to have people optimise you out of your own mission).
-I was an engineer role main in 2.0 so I'm a *little* biased, but again you make some good points. I still think they couldve at least *tried* command intrinsic with old forge before just reworking everything. 
-Don't have much to add on this one, we're both in agreement
-I was meaning more mission *types*. Right now we have Skirmish with grineer, or just regular mission but with railjack flair with corpus.

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59 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

there were enough things happening on the ship in combat for an engineer player to be viable. That was a fun role, you could even get on a gun when you finished shipboard tasks so it wasn’t like you were missing out on shooting. But it was decided that if you aren’t actively shooting at things all the time then you aren’t having fun so you don’t need to ever look at the ship unless you’re quickly crafting Dome Charges.

To be fair, more and more the gamers of today seem to not like the "supporting" stuff though. Low attention span and all that. So, as sad as it is, having a dedicated Engineer is highly unlikely to come back.

I do still think there's plenty of teamwork to be had. Having a good vs bad team is still a night and day experience, imo.

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

The energy thing was apparently to reduce confusion over how many different resources there were, but flux wasn’t exactly difficult to understand so I don’t see why they made the system so much worse. Now Railjacks have the same busted energy economy as the base game, with always-on Zenurik or Pizzas. It really feels like we lose nothing by reverting this change or reworking it into a new-improved thing. /rant

Flux was DEFINITELY better than current energy system.

But imo, Lavos is the most fun of them all. Seeker Volley is a tad quick to recharge (as it mostly trivializes the useage of your main guns), but other than that, I feel if not going back to Flux Energy, going with a cooldown system is likely the better option.

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19 minutes ago, OllyDG said:

-I was more meaning the resources being disconnected, but nonetheless good point. If DE is planning to add more stuff, then it's fine. 
-The Plexus is great among players at an equal gear level, awful otherwise. Either a noob joins a high level mission and is total dead weight, or a pro joins a noob's mission and takes the limelight for themselves (which is a-ok if the noob's cool with it, but speaking from experience as a low level player it does sometimes suck to have people optimise you out of your own mission).
-I was an engineer role main in 2.0 so I'm a *little* biased, but again you make some good points. I still think they couldve at least *tried* command intrinsic with old forge before just reworking everything. 
-Don't have much to add on this one, we're both in agreement
-I was meaning more mission *types*. Right now we have Skirmish with grineer, or just regular mission but with railjack flair with corpus.

  • Ah, ok. Well, there's likely gonna be some AW+RJ open world where a lot of resources from AW+RJ will matter for basic missions and so on. I think it's one of those things we just have to wait and see.
  • Hmm... I honestly haven't noticed a big difference between running lower or higher levels (i mostly run higher levels though, so that's probably why I don't see it). I feel the player competence and engagement is overall more important than their Plexus mods (aside from their Battle Avionics, maybe?), but I could be wrong. That's just my experience with it so far at least *shrugs*
  • Well, I think it was only tedious and boring when NO ONE wanted to be an Engineer. Being a pilot or gunner+FA with no Engineer was then an absolute slog. If there was a good Engineer, yes, it was fun for the pilot/gunners too. And I kinda liked being the Engineer as well (I phrased myself wrong, I meant it was *generally* considered boring to manage the Forge, not for me personally. But I don't miss it either).
  • Cool
  • I can fully agreed to that! I want more Skirmish-like missions, but just with different tasks to do, basicly. Stuff where the FA is used midrun, but not necessarily against Crewships. The Volatile mission has the right spirit for that, but it's only at the very END of the mission, so it feels a bit meh. And the sidemissions on Corpus missions are also on the right track. Just... more of that, yes.
Edited by Azamagon
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1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Maybe it is because I am mostly doing away missions, but I do not see why my Plexus is a factor. I do not have a railjack.

previously, all crewmates used the equipment of the host's railjack, this meant that as long as host was good, everyone else also was good. if DE introduced a "use host plexus" button then it wouldnt rly be an issue but this is DE so

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7 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Or you use Lavos, which DE have declared to be the one and only true railjack pilot or gunner. Why they chose to do that, I don't know. But he is objectively the superior option. 13 seconds between missile swarms, no need to get out of your seat, no need to use pizzas.

Of course, they'll just nerf him like they completely massacred Hildryn as a choice when it was pointed out that everyone would pick her at the start (because it takes a full 37 seconds for the shield cost to reset to base after firing a missile swarm). That won't fix the hard dependence on zenurik and frames with high base energy + flow - meaning that Nekros, Nidus, Frost, Valkyr and anything else that doesn't need large amounts of energy to work get utterly shafted.

Yeah, tying railjack energy to warframe energy was a really stupid idea. Why can't they just tie it to the reactor instead? That would actually make sense, but nooooo.

Abilities should have just used cooldowns, with the reactor providing some cdr.

Some of the aspects around Railjack already had cool downs so... not sure why not apply that to offensive abilities. People are obviously fine with it given they'll use Lavos over bothering with infinite energy spam. It would also let people use what ever Warframe they want without worrying about it impacting the Railjack itself, that's what the Railjack parts are for, and the Plexus.

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The most used warframe in railjack is lavos. Due to the removal of the energy flow lavos became the target warframe for railjack missions. The removal of the energy flow was a big mistake and proved that DE doesn't play its own game to test. Using warframe energy to use railjack skills is wrong. Both have to be independent as they were before update 3.0. And the forge now only serves to replace missiles from the frontal artillery....nothing else. There were no problems with railjack....the problems appeared in version 3.0. I don't know who led or accepted these changes but if the game were mine I would be fired.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Yamazuki:

Abilities should have just used cooldowns, with the reactor providing some cdr.

Some of the aspects around Railjack already had cool downs so... not sure why not apply that to offensive abilities. People are obviously fine with it given they'll use Lavos over bothering with infinite energy spam. It would also let people use what ever Warframe they want without worrying about it impacting the Railjack itself, that's what the Railjack parts are for, and the Plexus.

 

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Vaml77:

The most used warframe in railjack is lavos. Due to the removal of the energy flow lavos became the target warframe for railjack missions. The removal of the energy flow was a big mistake and proved that DE doesn't play its own game to test. Using warframe energy to use railjack skills is wrong. Both have to be independent as they were before update 3.0. And the forge now only serves to replace missiles from the frontal artillery....nothing else. There were no problems with railjack....the problems appeared in version 3.0. I don't know who led or accepted these changes but if the game were mine I would be fired.

Hey guys !

Glad the discissions here are this calm Dear Sirs 🙂

Back to topic, I agree with the quoted posts!

Personally I‘d like the (separated) flux energy pool back with the reactor providing per second energy regen and flux capacity values that are based on the manufacturer. The engineer/crew could buff the per second rate or restore a fixed energy amount while disabling the regen rate for a few seconds...

If DE want‘s to be lazy I‘d be fine with cooldowns for the Battle abilities... the important thing is that we have the freedom of choice to pick the Frame we like without getting penalized in railjack!

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16 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Volatile is not really Railjack.     Its just a normal mission after "Railjack taxi" intro. 

Railjack mission is when Ship itself is heavily involved in the process.  A mission that cant be done without RJ, where it plays a key role (there is only one RN, when you need to use Tunguska to blow up Obelisk reactors...and that happens only at the end and barely worth mentioning)

Remember the original trailers for Empyrean where they showed off some thing where one tenno was away on the enemy corpus ship and another tenno back on the RailJack would use tacticals or something to hack security inside the corpus ship to help their away team?

I thought that was #*!%in' BADASS and I was HYPED for it. Where'd THAT go!?

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19 hours ago, OllyDG said:

previously, all crewmates used the equipment of the host's railjack, this meant that as long as host was good, everyone else also was good. if DE introduced a "use host plexus" button then it wouldnt rly be an issue but this is DE so

Sorry, I still do not quite get it. So I have a rank 9 Forward artillery in my plexus, but if the host does not have that mod equipped at all does that mean I do more damage than the host when using the artillery cannon?

I noticed that my Tactical abilities(my plexus) are different from the hosts. Is that the same for Battle abilities?

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vor 45 Minuten schrieb Frendh:

Sorry, I still do not quite get it. So I have a rank 9 Forward artillery in my plexus, but if the host does not have that mod equipped at all does that mean I do more damage than the host when using the artillery cannon?

I noticed that my Tactical abilities(my plexus) are different from the hosts. Is that the same for Battle abilities?

hey :]

the problem is that now there could be people with the same pilot plexus mods but only one pilot slot so the other guys have wasted a mod slot.. or no one with maxed artillery/gunnery/engineer builds equipped but they do sit in those seats while you with the better build have to do other things ..

battle and tactical avionics are individual for each player

before:

1 good host 3 other guys could profit from the hosts railjack

but if the host hasn't a well equipped railjack the whole group is penalized by that

after:

1 host railjack ( that could have S#&$ty turrets/hull/shield/engine) but the individual mods could be great

but the plexus mods can not compensate a bad railjack much

in addition to that you now can have the same plexus builds for 1(pilot) or two/three(gunner) roles in public groups but not enough possibilities to use those builds .. or your group is missing a specific build... which is unfortunate .. AND you are penalized by your frame choice .. ( bad railjack energy change is bad .. )

AND the worst part .. you can't choose now if you want to host or join a group .. it's random .. if there is a host you'll join automatically if not .. you'll host

 

premade groups would solve all that but the S#&$ty energy change

Edited by Mortico
battle/tactical ability addition
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4 hours ago, OwlOfJune said:

I said before but remove the energy tie in with frames and just make it cooltime based like how it is with Lavos.

 

Boom. Balance issue fixed 

100% agreed.

Although, 10 sec cooldown on Seeker Volley is a bit quick. Maybe at least 15 sec would be better on that one.

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I don't know how they did it, but they made railjack corpus proxima, worse then railjack's first release.

How about instead of trying to change it into something we "might" like, change it into what you showed us on tennocon 2018, the thing that got us hyped about it in the first place.

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On 2021-07-24 at 3:00 AM, OllyDG said:

-Content is still disconnected from everything else, though very slightly less so due to railjack defense and the like

But but but! They tied (aka. forced, like a square peg into a round hole) Liches into it! So now I have to do a bunch of extra work I wasn't interested in doing, just so I still have access to content I could previously access! I sure do love farming intrinsics so I can unlock the Lich galleon when there are literally no people doing railjack on PS4 at 11 AM on a Sunday! All so I can finish this stupid Lich I spawned with the wrong element! Nothing says connected content like content walls!

Edited by (PSN)Krikenemp
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On 2021-07-24 at 1:55 AM, DoomFruit said:

Or you use Lavos, which DE have declared to be the one and only true railjack pilot or gunner. Why they chose to do that, I don't know. But he is objectively the superior option. 13 seconds between missile swarms, no need to get out of your seat, no need to use pizzas.

Of course, they'll just nerf him like they completely massacred Hildryn as a choice when it was pointed out that everyone would pick her at the start (because it takes a full 37 seconds for the shield cost to reset to base after firing a missile swarm). That won't fix the hard dependence on zenurik and frames with high base energy + flow - meaning that Nekros, Nidus, Frost, Valkyr and anything else that doesn't need large amounts of energy to work get utterly shafted.

Yeah, tying railjack energy to warframe energy was a really stupid idea. Why can't they just tie it to the reactor instead? That would actually make sense, but nooooo.

I like using wukong for railjack because prior to crew I could have 2 wuclones going and it made soloing easier. Unfortunately wukong has a small energy pool and my build doesn't use flow. This change hasn't forced me to change warframes, I still run wukong, but it has stopped me from using my ships powers so I don't have to deal with an awful energy economy and wait constantly on zenurik and e-pads. I just don't use an entire feature of the railjack anymore because I have the build I like to play railjack and built specifically for it and the energy change was stupid. Before I could shoot off like 3 voidhole now I get 1 and no other power use before I run out of energy.

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1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

100% agreed.

Although, 10 sec cooldown on Seeker Volley is a bit quick. Maybe at least 15 sec would be better on that one.

Which shows another bonus for DE to take this. They can actually have some BALANANCE with Railjack powers without taking into consideration of dozens of ways energy economy is broken. 

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