I have been thinking of Ammo

[0_The_F00l]

And how in most games Ammo is a very good balance check of damage vs availability , 

It could have worked in warframe, but in their infinite wisdom , the Devs decided to give players the ability to bypass it via mutation mods , like many other things and then wonder how to balance the games extremely varied weapons.

Anyway , the topic is more to discuss the disparity between different ammo types.

Primary weapons have as of now multiple ammo types , rifle , shotgun , sniper which usually correspond to equivalent weapon types (few exceptions exist where the weapon type and ammo don't quite line up) 

But secondary only have pistol ammo, despite having just as varied weapon types. And the amount of ammo dropped is fixed , so ammo inefficient secondaries can get used up very fast.

And all these ammo types don't have the same drop chance with rifles being rather common (I laughed when they introduced the primed rifle ammo mutation mod)

And there is no relation between max ammo capacity of the weapon and the dropped ammo recieved.

And the per bullet damage between two weapons that both take the same ammo type is also very varied.

I think it's time we got an ammo rework (considering DE are trying to "bridge the gap" this seems like a good time)

Here's my thoughts for new ammo types (exceptions can still be made for unique weapons) :

Light ammo : works in guns with low per hit damage (up to 50 per shot on average non aoe) but high fire rate (6 and above). Ammo drop can be 60 , max ammo can be around 600 for the weapon on average.

Medium ammo : works in guns with medium per shot damage (50 to 100 on average non aoe) and medium fire rate (3 to 6) , ammo drop would be 30 , max ammo can be 300 for the weapon on average.

Heavy ammo: works in  weapons with high per shot damage (100 to 350 on average non aoe) and low fire rate (1 to 3), ammo drop would be 15, max ammo can be 150.

Fuel pack/cell: works in weapons that have beam/flame thrower (aka , held / discharge) this is unique cause most of these weapons are unique (with chaining or infinite punch through) making their actual effective damage per shot rather difficult to calculate but would be on par with medium ammo - i am OK if these weapons take medium ammo but i feel having a separate ammo type that is slightly rare would be more suitable ammo , drop of 30 and max ammo of 150.

Launcher ammo: for things that go big boom - this is for weapons that do large AOE damage (above 300 on average and area of effect being above 5 meters with fire rate rough in the 1.5 range) specifically as its primary damage -  ammo drop would be 5 and max ammo would be 30. the point here is you are doing more than heavy damage , but you are doing it in an area , coing actually more than the stated damage depending on the number of enemies you hit.

With light ammo being very common and launcher ammo being relatively rare.

Of course this is kinda simplified and there can be unique weapons that can break from this mold.

How will ammo mutation work ? Pretty much as it is ( but maybe with a cool down  with a limit on how much ammo can be converted in a minute?) And can convert between the different ammo types for that specific weapon.

Why am I discussing this ? Cause I think ammo is a very integral part of guns and any changes or attempts to normalize their usage should consider ammo utilization as well.

What are your views on this?

[(NSW)notyetawizard]

I'm not too concerned with the details of it, but I do feel there is generally too much ammo. I very rarely run out, and when I do a 5 second runabout has me loaded up again—no need to even switch weapons, as there's always a trail of ammo behind me.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Ammo drops are littered all over the ground.....you shouldn't run out unless you're on the regular starchart with weak spawns, and you wouldn't need the ammo then anyway.

There are abilities and mods that further help increase your ammo, and now Lavos and Protea can make universal ammo. 

What's the exact issue? I can even spam the Gauss pistol which has one of the lowest ammo max.

[Aldain]

The issue of ammo is that if it were reduced or they reigned in the sheer amount of it that commonly falls all over the place people would just default to melee even more than they already do.

You would need to rebalance firearms across the board to even begin to address ammunition in this way.

[Heiven]

Reading through this mess of a idea i come to the conclusion that you your self didn't really think it through. And you just slapped ideas over other ideas!?

So because of the latest changes in order to make firearms more usable you want to make ammo more ........ limited? 🤨 You do remember that the mele nerfes and the new mods were made to make the firearms more usable, right!?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

light ammo : works in guns with low per hit damage but high fire rate.

Medium ammo : works  in guns with medium damage and medium fire rate.

heavy ammo: works in  weapons with high per shot damage and low fire rate.

So moving from ammo for weapon type's to ammo for weapons with specific stats based on dmg and fire rate?! OK! But is this for the base values of the weapons or base values + mods? Also what about weapons that aren't in one of those category's, like for example medium dmg + low fire rate and so on? Also also for light and heavy ammo you label it to dmg per hit and for medium to simply medium dmg!? Whats the difference?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

fuel pack/cell: works in weapons that have beam/flame thrower like damage.

Launcher ammo: for things that go big boom.

But i thought you wanted to move from ammo for weapon types to ammo based on weapon values!? When you are proposing a change you have to be fully consistent, you cant have it one way for one part and totally different for the other! As for making launcher ammo very rear, WHY? Is it Because its a nuke type weapon, do i need to remind you that this isn't Destiny 2!?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

How will ammo mutation work ? Pretty much as it is ( but maybe with a cooldown  with a limit on how much ammo can be converted in a minute?) And can convert between the different ammo types for that specific weapon.

So far weapons that need the ammo mutation mod are the ones with high fire rate and low ammo pull and/or in short every weapon if your in a match with mods and frames that could buff you fire rate IF this idea is implemented. Also what about the aura mods that increase the values of the ammo pick up? Also also remember that in order for the mod to work you need to have your weapon equipped or els you would simply pick the ammo automatically uncovered for your other weapon. Unless your running around only with your ................................ mele weapon.

And doesn't this mean that for high level games or simply steel path you would have to relay almost entirely on you mele weapon for the swarm of enemy's? Sure for normal games it could work but past it ....... i don't feel it.

Again all of these ideas make me think that you simply want to move back to pre nerf mele and we aint going there, nether are the developers!

[AlexMercer]

The way ammo works right now is great no need for a change imo.

[Rakosta_Kai]

The nice thing about stuff like ammo mutation mods, ammo pads, and etc is that you don't have to opt to use them...

And choosing to do so means you give up a bit of something else in the process.

Asserting you have too much available isn't an issue of balance insomuch as it is preference.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But secondary only have pistol ammo, despite having just as varied weapon types. And the amount of ammo dropped is fixed , so ammo inefficient secondaries can get used up very fast.

it might have changed now, but in the past I remember Castanas needed Sniper Ammo, probably through being classed as explosives and therefore being treated like a secondary Launcher. I think Kulstar was like that too. 

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

light ammo : works in guns with low per hit damage but high fire rate.

Medium ammo : works  in guns with medium damage and medium fire rate.

heavy ammo: works in  weapons with high per shot damage and low fire rate.

fuel pack/cell: works in weapons that have beam/flame thrower like damage.

Launcher ammo: for things that go big boom.

with light ammo being very common and launcher ammo being very rare.

ok, but where are the lines going to be drawn between Light, medium and heavy, when we have literally hundreds of different weapons and some are oddballs?: is the Tetra light or medium? is the Grinlok considered a Sniper and thus should use heavy ammo? Launchers already have the smallest ammo pools, so making their ammo rare means they'll hardly get used, which is not good if you're an AoE user who wants to get a mission done quickly.

the ammo system as it is works fine. the only weapons that run out are the ultra fast ones like Grakata or ultra small ammo pool ones like Akarius, and they are exceptions to the rule.

[NecroPed]

I think the easier option would be to make ammo resupply an amount based off of total ammo and magazine size. 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Most energy weapons function exactly like rifles. I don't see it as necessary.

Explosives on the otherhand could use a category. After all snipers and shotguns have their own drop pools. And AoE weapons are much more prevalent. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Maybe nerf Ammo Mutation from conversion into efficiency?

Instead of converting random ammo drops into your weapon's ammo, the correct pickup simply yields more ammo?

Or, just like reload mods, Ammo Mutation shouldn't be Exilus mods.

[Yamazuki]

The ammo "limit" currently is mainly to encourage moving.

Outside of endless missions, the vast majority of them are too short for a limit to ever matter, and DE gave the option to increase the starting point without taking up a mod slot. The limitation is only relevant in a long mission where people stand in one spot, if enemies die too far, eventually they have to go and get more ammo [idealy].

There's also weapons with essentially infinite ammo, add on that the P-S-M system isn't how it functions in other games. Having some ammo be rarer make no sense, this isn't a game where you use a secondary only when your "strong" primary runs out of ammo, and melee only when an enemy got near you, or to conserve "good" ammo.

As for other games, most aren't based around slaughtering 1,000 enemies in the spam of 5 minutes, so many of them you go 30 minutes to defeat like 10 of them; or the game is pvp and ammo serves as a punishment for mindlessly missing. Even shooters with a "horde" mode, the amount of enemies killed is a joke compared to Warframe. It's also not as if Warframe is the only pve game with "guns" where ammo isn't a relevant limitation, so many shooters only use ammo as a formality, because well, all the other gun games use ammo, so they had to as well. For Warframe, it's at this point both a formality and progression. Like every other part of the loadout, you eventually progress and delete a weakness. "Problems" in the game are created and solved via a grind.

[(NSW)notyetawizard]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Solo players hate everything that's being discussed here.

Speak for yourself, mate. I play solo 95% of the time and I feel there's usually too much ammo. I wouldn't want to be running out constantly, but it'd be nice to have a reason to slot ammo mods or use Carrier.

I do one-shot my enemies, though, so I'll give you that. Sometimes I one-shot ten enemies ...

 

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Here's my thoughts for new ammo types (exceptions can still be made for unique weapons) :

light ammo : works in guns with low per hit damage but high fire rate.

Medium ammo : works  in guns with medium damage and medium fire rate.

heavy ammo: works in  weapons with high per shot damage and low fire rate.

fuel pack/cell: works in weapons that have beam/flame thrower like damage.

Launcher ammo: for things that go big boom.

with light ammo being very common and launcher ammo being very rare.

Of course this is kinda simplified and there can be unique weapons that can break from this mold.

What about just one universal drop instead?  But with every weapon having a conversion number derived largely from ammo pool and RoF, with big penalties for weapons/weapon classes that are supposed to be more constrained by ammo.  Mutation mods would be changed to conversion bonus.

I feel like there's something obvious I'm overlooking, but it seems like it would accomplish the same end goal, and do it more elegantly than a bunch of different ammo packs.

 

[Dreddgrave]

I'd say apply these ideas to actually balancing the weapons.

As it stands there's very little power dynamic between weapon types, even those around the same tier or MR. Payday 2 actually has a really good ammo economy and designs almost the whole game around it. Low rank weapons have tons of ammo but deal very little damage and the opposite is true of high rank weapons. Then there are five or so distinct difficulty levels and part of the fun of the hard stuff is finding a weapon that meets your personal requirements or adjusting to make it fit.

If you want a wheat thresher you could take any number of automatic weapons, some of the low rank shotguns or just go ham and bring a grenade launcher that holds like four shots total. If you want a Dozer smasher you, an automatic with decent damage is usually recommended or your can just get a mega sniper and one-shot him if you aim right. Pistols are reliable side arms and one of them punches through ballistic shields as expected of such utility limits the max ammo It all ties back into the ammo economy. You can choose how powerful you are but the stars that shine the brightest fade the fastest. This is all balanced out by two things: Enemy ammo drops and the deployable ammo bag.

 

In terms of Warframes gunplay I think mimicking Payday 2 wouldn't be a bad solution. Both are considered horde shooters, it's just Warframe's been having an ongoing identity crisis for as long as I can remember so we've got dozens of half finished mechanics strewn about the place #*!%ing up the balance.

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

What's the exact issue? I can even spam the Gauss pistol which has one of the lowest ammo max.

The "issue" is exactly what you have described, you can spam gauss pistol (akarius i assume) cause it takes pistol ammo , which is abundant despite powering something that does damage in an AOE, try saying the same with a twin grakatas. it does much less damage but still runs out of ammo really fast. what do you think would be your spam possibility if it took sniper ammo instead?

10 hours ago, Aldain said:

The issue of ammo is that if it were reduced or they reigned in the sheer amount of it that commonly falls all over the place people would just default to melee even more than they already do.

You would need to rebalance firearms across the board to even begin to address ammunition in this way.

Which is kinda the reason i am putting this up , DE hasnt quite succeeded in its arsenal divide bridging, AOE ranged weapons are still the preference , the same they were earlier (though i will say all ranged weapons have gotten better overall). The ammunition check IS one of the balance passes , but it of course cannot be done in vacuum.

10 hours ago, Heiven said:

Reading through this mess of a idea i come to the conclusion that you your self didn't really think it through. And you just slapped ideas over other ideas!?

Hmm , only have one idea in this thread  , but lets see your opinions and how we can decide if i actually thought it through or not

10 hours ago, Heiven said:

So because of the latest changes in order to make firearms more usable you want to make ammo more ........ limited? 🤨 You do remember that the mele nerfes and the new mods were made to make the firearms more usable, right!?

You assume all fire arms are the same , and so you overlook the most basic reason that i made this post , ALL FIREARMS ARE NOT THE SAME and they also don't take the same amount of ammo. Granted i probably should have mentioned the numbering and ammo capacity (which i have updated now) AOE weapons remain the dominant choice , the bridging need not only be between melee and AOE ranged weapons, it needs to be between all weapons available in the game otherwise DE might as well stop creating single target focus wepons.

10 hours ago, Heiven said:

So moving from ammo for weapon type's to ammo for weapons with specific stats based on dmg and fire rate?! OK! But is this for the base values of the weapons or base values + mods? Also what about weapons that aren't in one of those category's, like for example medium dmg + low fire rate and so on? Also also for light and heavy ammo you label it to dmg per hit and for medium to simply medium dmg!? Whats the difference?

Base values on average without mods.

eg. a weapon with 30 base damage per shot (single pellet) , 20% CC , 2x CD would have an average normalized shot at 36 so it is very much in the light category. but if it also has small 2 m radial AOE (of say 10 to 15 damage) or 1m innate punch though or something it wouldn't be amiss to consider it medium.

Values are only reference , individual weapon gimmicks and utility would make it more suited for one or another,

I wrote this post rather late , so i apologize for any inconsistencies for the terms. It should be corrected now

10 hours ago, Heiven said:

But i thought you wanted to move from ammo for weapon types to ammo based on weapon values!? When you are proposing a change you have to be fully consistent, you cant have it one way for one part and totally different for the other! As for making launcher ammo very rear, WHY? Is it Because its a nuke type weapon, do i need to remind you that this isn't Destiny 2!?

OP has been updated with a proper description. we can continue this once you have had a chance to go through it. i am proposing this change cause of multiple reasons and ammo matching a suitable damage output is only one of them.

10 hours ago, Heiven said:

So far weapons that need the ammo mutation mod are the ones with high fire rate and low ammo pull and/or in short every weapon if your in a match with mods and frames that could buff you fire rate IF this idea is implemented. Also what about the aura mods that increase the values of the ammo pick up? Also also remember that in order for the mod to work you need to have your weapon equipped or els you would simply pick the ammo automatically uncovered for your other weapon. Unless your running around only with your ................................ mele weapon.

And doesn't this mean that for high level games or simply steel path you would have to relay almost entirely on you mele weapon for the swarm of enemy's? Sure for normal games it could work but past it ....... i don't feel it.

Again all of these ideas make me think that you simply want to move back to pre nerf mele and we aint going there, nether are the developers!

Again , i probably should have mentioned the values. You will mostly only see a difference on a very small number of primaries , but it will be much more obvious on the secondaries even without ammo mutation.

I also have never really felt a need for ammo mutation when using high fire rate weapons (with or without buffs), probably to do with trigger discipline than actual problem with the weapons for primary. But if i try teh same with secondary , i will definitely lose out very quickly.

I also have no idea where you got the feeling that i want to move to pre nerf melee. This discussion is purely within the scope of ranged weapons. i personally think the melee needs a few more nerfs but thats a discussion for later.

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

The nice thing about stuff like ammo mutation mods, ammo pads, and etc is that you don't have to opt to use them...

And choosing to do so means you give up a bit of something else in the process.

Asserting you have too much available isn't an issue of balance insomuch as it is preference.

considering that ammo mutation is exilus , it is not really much of a drawback to use , so yes it is something that bypasses or reduces the balance. and since one of them also actively boosts crit tiers , it is a better DPS option even if you dont need it.

7 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

it might have changed now, but in the past I remember Castanas needed Sniper Ammo, probably through being classed as explosives and therefore being treated like a secondary Launcher. I think Kulstar was like that too.

Must have been before my time but is kinda what i am suggesting.

7 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

ok, but where are the lines going to be drawn between Light, medium and heavy, when we have literally hundreds of different weapons and some are oddballs?: is the Tetra light or medium? is the Grinlok considered a Sniper and thus should use heavy ammo? Launchers already have the smallest ammo pools, so making their ammo rare means they'll hardly get used, which is not good if you're an AoE user who wants to get a mission done quickly.

the ammo system as it is works fine. the only weapons that run out are the ultra fast ones like Grakata or ultra small ammo pool ones like Akarius, and they are exceptions to the rule.

OP has been updated. Oddballs will kinda be outside the suggested values.

7 hours ago, NecroPed said:

I think the easier option would be to make ammo resupply an amount based off of total ammo and magazine size. 

 

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

What about just one universal drop instead?  But with every weapon having a conversion number derived largely from ammo pool and RoF, with big penalties for weapons/weapon classes that are supposed to be more constrained by ammo.  Mutation mods would be changed to conversion bonus.

I feel like there's something obvious I'm overlooking, but it seems like it would accomplish the same end goal, and do it more elegantly than a bunch of different ammo packs.

 

I agree, with these points , a universal drop but with a differing percentage returned would also work. but if all enemies drop the same ammo , will it really make a difference in the end? its not just the quantity its also the rarity of the drops that matters.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Tactless_Ninja said:

Most energy weapons function exactly like rifles. I don't see it as necessary.

Explosives on the otherhand could use a category. After all snipers and shotguns have their own drop pools. And AoE weapons are much more prevalent. 

Emphasis was more on pistols having categories which all take the same ammo type and quantity.

Beams are kinda close with rifles , but considering some of their gimmicks it is harder to consider them as rifles.

5 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Maybe nerf Ammo Mutation from conversion into efficiency?

Instead of converting random ammo drops into your weapon's ammo, the correct pickup simply yields more ammo?

Or, just like reload mods, Ammo Mutation shouldn't be Exilus mods.

There is already auras (scavenger) for that (which nobody really uses in my opinion).

currently exilus mods are a joke and not worth using on most weapons outside a few niche ones (either recoil or ammo mutation are the only worthwhile options on average). i honestly don't know what they were thinking with that.

5 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The ammo "limit" currently is mainly to encourage moving.

Outside of endless missions, the vast majority of them are too short for a limit to ever matter, and DE gave the option to increase the starting point without taking up a mod slot. The limitation is only relevant in a long mission where people stand in one spot, if enemies die too far, eventually they have to go and get more ammo [idealy].

There's also weapons with essentially infinite ammo, add on that the P-S-M system isn't how it functions in other games. Having some ammo be rarer make no sense, this isn't a game where you use a secondary only when your "strong" primary runs out of ammo, and melee only when an enemy got near you, or to conserve "good" ammo.

As for other games, most aren't based around slaughtering 1,000 enemies in the spam of 5 minutes, so many of them you go 30 minutes to defeat like 10 of them; or the game is pvp and ammo serves as a punishment for mindlessly missing. Even shooters with a "horde" mode, the amount of enemies killed is a joke compared to Warframe. It's also not as if Warframe is the only pve game with "guns" where ammo isn't a relevant limitation, so many shooters only use ammo as a formality, because well, all the other gun games use ammo, so they had to as well. For Warframe, it's at this point both a formality and progression. Like every other part of the loadout, you eventually progress and delete a weakness. "Problems" in the game are created and solved via a grind.

The single target weapons still exist , are you suggesting that DE should stop creating them and delete the ones that already exist?

3 hours ago, Dreddgrave said:

I'd say apply these ideas to actually balancing the weapons.

As it stands there's very little power dynamic between weapon types, even those around the same tier or MR. Payday 2 actually has a really good ammo economy and designs almost the whole game around it. Low rank weapons have tons of ammo but deal very little damage and the opposite is true of high rank weapons. Then there are five or so distinct difficulty levels and part of the fun of the hard stuff is finding a weapon that meets your personal requirements or adjusting to make it fit.

If you want a wheat thresher you could take any number of automatic weapons, some of the low rank shotguns or just go ham and bring a grenade launcher that holds like four shots total. If you want a Dozer smasher you, an automatic with decent damage is usually recommended or your can just get a mega sniper and one-shot him if you aim right. Pistols are reliable side arms and one of them punches through ballistic shields as expected of such utility limits the max ammo It all ties back into the ammo economy. You can choose how powerful you are but the stars that shine the brightest fade the fastest. This is all balanced out by two things: Enemy ammo drops and the deployable ammo bag.

i havent really played payday 2 , so i will take your word for it :)

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The "issue" is exactly what you have described, you can spam gauss pistol (akarius i assume) cause it takes pistol ammo , which is abundant despite powering something that does damage in an AOE, try saying the same with a twin grakatas. it does much less damage but still runs out of ammo really fast. what do you think would be your spam possibility if it took sniper ammo instead?

You have the helminth ability to save ammo on your grakatas. 

The akarius and the grakatas aren't snipers....so it wouldn't use that ammo.

[TARINunit9]

I'm afraid of any tweaks to ammo. Too strict, and you end up with guns like the Kohm and the Bramma. And before you tell me the Bramma is fine, run the Bramma without any mutation mods. Even if it works, it isn't fun.

But back on topic, games like Overwatch have proven that literally unlimited ammo can work in a shooter, and Doom Eternal proved that functionally unlimited ammo can also work. So I'm really not worried about Warframe's extremely generous ammo

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I agree, with these points , a universal drop but with a differing percentage returned would also work. but if all enemies drop the same ammo , will it really make a difference in the end?

Fewer distinct ammo packs on the screen but more potential for fine tuning on individual weapons.  

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

considering that ammo mutation is exilus , it is not really much of a drawback to use , so yes it is something that bypasses or reduces the balance. and since one of them also actively boosts crit tiers , it is a better DPS option even if you dont need it.

OK, please describe a specific scenario where adding an ammo mutation specifically creates a scenario where balance would be affected.

That means it's something that I couldn't achieve through use of:

• ammo pads
• ammo pickups
• Use of carrier 
• Replenish arcanes on kit weapons, etc

I ask this because you've made a fairly blanketing and nebulous argument when I have the feeling you are speaking of a single niche scenario.

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You have the helminth ability to save ammo on your grakatas. 

The akarius and the grakatas aren't snipers....so it wouldn't use that ammo.

I am not usre you understand or are being intentionally obtuse ,as that's the point I am making, akarius is an explosive and twin grakatas are two auto primaries taped together. 

Explosives take ammo from the sniper pool , auto primaries take ammo from the rifle pool.

Secondaries only take from the pistol pool irrespective of the actual damage type they output.

Twin grakatas run out very fast , regular grakatas can still manage cause rifle drops (and their quantity) are more abundant than pistal.

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm afraid of any tweaks to ammo. Too strict, and you end up with guns like the Kohm and the Bramma. And before you tell me the Bramma is fine, run the Bramma without any mutation mods. Even if it works, it isn't fun.

Its called balancing burst damage output.

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But back on topic, games like Overwatch have proven that literally unlimited ammo can work in a shooter, and Doom Eternal proved that functionally unlimited ammo can also work. So I'm really not worried about Warframe's extremely generous ammo

I don't think overwatch is a suitable example.and pretty sure doom does have a very well balanced ammo drop for ammo based on the weapon.

[0_The_F00l]

33 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

OK, please describe a specific scenario where adding an ammo mutation specifically creates a scenario where balance would be affected.

That means it's something that I couldn't achieve through use of:

• ammo pads
• ammo pickups
• Use of carrier 
• Replenish arcanes on kit weapons, etc

I ask this because you've made a fairly blanketing and nebulous argument when I have the feeling you are speaking of a single niche scenario.

The point is opportunity cost. All of what you have mentioned are actual balance and continuity mechanics which balance their utility.

Ammo mutation takes an exilus slot , there are very few and niche worthwhile mods that can fit here instead. The only cost is the exilus mod slot unlock itself (and the one time procurement of the mod) and the opportunity cost is negligible (less recoil ? Inability to use cautios shot ?)

Ammo pads require crafting , each time which needs resources and pre planning repeatedly which is a cost of convenience.

Ammo pickups of specific type are not guaranteed , high damage explosives can and will run out and you will be unable to use your weapon for a brief amount of time which is cost of temporary inertness.

Carrier requires you to ...  use carrier instead of a number of other companions resulting in reduced utility available from other companions.

Pax charge works on only specific weapons , they are not universal and so you are losing the opportunity of using other weapons.

[(PSN)GingyGreen]

12 hours ago, Aldain said:

The issue of ammo is that if it were reduced or they reigned in the sheer amount of it that commonly falls all over the place people would just default to melee even more than they already do.

You would need to rebalance firearms across the board to even begin to address ammunition in this way.

Part of the issue of melee dominance is because of how passive and harmless enemies tends to be at melee range. Most are most dangerous at medium range when everyone's firing at you.

[(PSN)thowed]

We can also add wear and tear on melee weapons.  I'd love for them to break in the middle of a mission.  Maybe firearm maintenance too.  Better take care of your gun or it'll jam or misfire.  We can balance our way into being like every other game.

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

We can also add wear and tear on melee weapons.  I'd love for them to break in the middle of a mission.  Maybe firearm maintenance too.  Better take care of your gun or it'll jam or misfire.  We can balance our way into being like every other game.

No need to be dramatic.

We already had maintenance on companions, and we no longer have it cause it was a generally disliked mechanism.