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Can we stop tying weapon functions to the aim button?


Dreddgrave

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This request is spurred directly by the Tenent Diplos, a nearly enjoyable weapon that is marred by it's biggest "feature." Other weapons like the Quatz, Kuva Quartakk and Komorex share similar problems. These are all weapons I have enjoyed to some extent but would have vastly more fun if the use if their alt-fires were actually tied to the dedicated secondary-fire keybind. (I know the Komorex also makes use of the bind but it'd be nice to have access to it's explosive firemode without needing the scope)

The description of the weapon reads "Itemize and execute with this pair of auto-lock-on, homing-projectile pistols. Shoot from-hip for a more conventional pistol experience."

The auto-lock-on barely works when you want it to and when you just want to use the only good Corpus themed twin-pistols as they are you can't actually aim at a target before firing. If you lock onto a target you fire the two lock-shots and then are then stuck in the lock-on mode for a time and cannot continue firing until it's over or another target is locked. Like the "Quat" line before it, the Diplos will continue to fire in it's standard automatic mode if you aim while already firing. This is an incredibly clunky way to get precision and recoil reduction at the cost of however many bullets it takes preform this ass-backwards maneuver and thusly acquire a target. Clunk that is entirely unnecessary because we have the a keybind dedicated to doing this sort of thing.

What sense does it even make? I've heard one person defend the "Quat" line by saying "Well, you'd want the burst fire more when you're aiming anyway" despite the several other weapons that function exactly as I expect. The Argonak, Stradavar, Tiberon, etc. allow you to simple change the firemode at the click of a button. These feature were even added to a certain Kuva weapon without issue, the Kuva Hind! So we have precedent for the feature not being a crutch to reign in high-end version of a weapon. Instead putting "Kuva" in front of "Quartakk" adds an automatic firemode but somehow the mechanism inside the weapon detects when you zoom your view in and forces you to use the old firemode whether you actually want to or not. Just from a physics point of view this S#&$'s daffy! Some weapons either have differing stats between the modes, like the "Quat" line or change functions entirely, like the Tenent Diplos. I'd like to be able to apply rapid fire status effects with my otherwise crit-focused brrt guns while also seeing what the hell I'm shooting at.

So my final point is: Give us that last bit of control over out weapons. We can decide how they look, what elements they spit, change the rate of fire and reload speed, somehow add an integral suppressor, even to revolvers and yet I have no say if certain guns just function normally. Confusing. Arbitrary. Beyond annoying.

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27 minutes ago, Dreddgrave said:

What sense does it even make? I've heard one person defend the "Quat" line by saying "Well, you'd want the burst fire more when you're aiming anyway" despite the several other weapons that function exactly as I expect.

If this is weapon I've tried (reading wiki text) then I LOVE this feature. It's so simple yet won't break a flow of a game. I wanted to write topic to make more things like this.

However I guess some people don't like it.

ps. This might be only fit for this weapon.

29 minutes ago, Dreddgrave said:

So my final point is: Give us that last bit of control over out weapons. We can decide how they look, what elements they spit, change the rate of fire and reload speed, somehow add an integral suppressor, even to revolvers and yet I have no say if certain guns just function normally. Confusing. Arbitrary. Beyond annoying.

If they added some kind of option how alternate fire mode works on given weapons (like hold/tap option for frames) then I guess it would be good for both of us.

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2 minutes ago, quxier said:

If they added some kind of option how alternate fire mode works on given weapons (like hold/tap option for frames) then I guess it would be good for both of us.

This would be the best way but if they went ahead and normalized the secondary-fire options on weapons you /can/ bind two keys per command and could have "Aim Weapon" and "Secondary Fire" bound to RMB or whatever you use. In my case I use RMB to aim and have sec-fire bound to my closest thumb button. It's nice it's kind of like the actual fire-select on real-world guns being near the trigger and operated with the thumb.

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vor 38 Minuten schrieb Dreddgrave:

This request is spurred directly by the Tenent Diplos, a nearly enjoyable weapon that is marred by it's biggest "feature." Other weapons like the Quatz, Kuva Quartakk and Komorex share similar problems. These are all weapons I have enjoyed to some extent but would have vastly more fun if the use if their alt-fires were actually tied to the dedicated secondary-fire keybind. (I know the Komorex also makes use of the bind but it'd be nice to have access to it's explosive firemode without needing the scope)

The description of the weapon reads "Itemize and execute with this pair of auto-lock-on, homing-projectile pistols. Shoot from-hip for a more conventional pistol experience."

The auto-lock-on barely works when you want it to and when you just want to use the only good Corpus themed twin-pistols as they are you can't actually aim at a target before firing. If you lock onto a target you fire the two lock-shots and then are then stuck in the lock-on mode for a time and cannot continue firing until it's over or another target is locked. Like the "Quat" line before it, the Diplos will continue to fire in it's standard automatic mode if you aim while already firing. This is an incredibly clunky way to get precision and recoil reduction at the cost of however many bullets it takes preform this ass-backwards maneuver and thusly acquire a target. Clunk that is entirely unnecessary because we have the a keybind dedicated to doing this sort of thing.

What sense does it even make? I've heard one person defend the "Quat" line by saying "Well, you'd want the burst fire more when you're aiming anyway" despite the several other weapons that function exactly as I expect. The Argonak, Stradavar, Tiberon, etc. allow you to simple change the firemode at the click of a button. These feature were even added to a certain Kuva weapon without issue, the Kuva Hind! So we have precedent for the feature not being a crutch to reign in high-end version of a weapon. Instead putting "Kuva" in front of "Quartakk" adds an automatic firemode but somehow the mechanism inside the weapon detects when you zoom your view in and forces you to use the old firemode whether you actually want to or not. Just from a physics point of view this S#&$'s daffy! Some weapons either have differing stats between the modes, like the "Quat" line or change functions entirely, like the Tenent Diplos. I'd like to be able to apply rapid fire status effects with my otherwise crit-focused brrt guns while also seeing what the hell I'm shooting at.

So my final point is: Give us that last bit of control over out weapons. We can decide how they look, what elements they spit, change the rate of fire and reload speed, somehow add an integral suppressor, even to revolvers and yet I have no say if certain guns just function normally. Confusing. Arbitrary. Beyond annoying.

Yes. that destroys the action. in addition, alt-fire is unoccupied. why is that not used?

with kuva zarr etc. the devs have solved it well. plays very cool. but here there is again a stupid way of playing that doesn't fit warframe at all.

I can still understand it when it comes to weapons with unlimited ammo. but not here!

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1 hour ago, Dreddgrave said:

This would be the best way but if they went ahead and normalized the secondary-fire options on weapons you /can/ bind two keys per command and could have "Aim Weapon" and "Secondary Fire" bound to RMB or whatever you use. In my case I use RMB to aim and have sec-fire bound to my closest thumb button. It's nice it's kind of like the actual fire-select on real-world guns being near the trigger and operated with the thumb.

It doesn't feel right, imho.

I have mouse with just 2 buttons (left & right) and roll (middle rolling thing). I could buy better mouse (with more keys) but I struggle to even utilize rolls (for melee I have Left = attack, right = block and roll up = heavy attack). On other hand I have no problem with many keys of my keyboard (left hand on my keyboard but I'm right-handed).

I don't know if I can just put alternate fire on RMB and leave aiming for some other (potentially keyboard) button.

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I'm one of those people that actually likes it. It gives weapons more individual characteristics and gives them a kind of quirk or finesse to use, rather than have every single weapon work exactly the same way. We have weapons with things like spool-up accuracy and manual detonation, both of which could be removed in favor of making them into more "standard" weapons, but that's just a slippery slope into mind-numbing mediocrity.

The Quatz is actually my most-used secondary (12%), and the one-click action for a secondary fire is MUCH faster than using a third button to toggle on/off, with the drawback of making it slightly more difficult to use aimed auto-fire -- a drawback that's very quickly minimized once you get used to the pistol. The magazine size of the Quatz/Quartakk/Diplos is way more than big enough to manage a few missed shots when you auto-fire aim. It's a slight trade-off in efficiency for speed.

You may not LIKE the Tenet Diplos, but you don't have to -- there are other weapons that do exactly what you want. If it was a toggle, how many people do you think would legitimately use it frequently for a wimpy two-shot, incredibly slow travel time homing burst, as opposed to just keeping with the flow and aiming down the sights? How much DPS opportunity cost would you pay to toggle it on and off like that? It would be nearly pointless when primary fire is so much more efficient, and people would just end up using it like a Corpus Twin Stubbas... except with projectile travel time. The Tenet Diplos' on-aim alt-fire gives it a unique flavor that's not for everyone, and that's okay.

If you think about it, the Tenet Diplos may be tailor-made for "acrobatic" frames like Mirage who may spend a lot of time in the air to avoid fire, aim gliding. Additionally, her clones turn it into a six-shot burst, making it much more formidable. Maybe it's a niche-use weapon, but it's more interesting than another set of trite bullet hoses.

 

The Corinth is my most-used primary at 17%, while I don't use the Corinth Prime, I appreciate the effort that went into making it a side-grade rather than a strict "more numbers" upgrade. I like the ability to partial reload, and I like the more hands-off approach of the secondary fire, even if it does less damage. It's nice to have options, you know? Just like we have warframes that are more graceful in the hands of a skilled player, we have weapons that act the same. If you like bullet hoses, there's the Kuva Twin Stubbas. If you like homing explosives, there's the Sepulcrum, Akarius, and Cyanex. If you're an outlier, there's the Tenet Diplos.

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I haven't used the Diplos, but I've grown to like the aim toggle on Kuartakk and Quatz most of the time.  While it took some getting used to, I consider it a cool mechanic now on those weapons.  It wouldn't break my heart to lose it or anything, but I'd be a little peeved. 

The ideal solution would be being able to customize weapon  alt modes to alt fire, alt fire toggle, or aim toggle as we see fit. 

Failing that, I think it's best to leave these mechanics on established weapons  as they are and just ask for / hope for new weapons that incorporate the features we want.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, snoozecruise said:

~All That~

So pressing one button would ruin the flow of combat but having your weapon stop functioning for a moment doesn't?

I do enjoy all the weapons I've mentioned, they're some of my favorites for one reason or another but I'd like them a whole lot more if they didn't glitch out on me half the time I used them. The "Quat" line likes to spend a moment in the other mode even if I did take my time switching, something that'd be fixed by the sec-fire key. You've hopefully already read how there's zero fluid way to wield the Diplos, not two days I've had the damn thing have I not made the mistake of controlling my bursts instead of just spraying every shot away in hopes something relevant walked on screen for me to then aim at. This is only a minor exaggeration.

Also a Mirage using the auto-lock mode would probably care dearly that it actually hit it's targets. Which it doesn't. I've tried many ways of locking-on with the Duplos and yet there is no solution I have found that improves the odds of hitting something. In some cases the auto-lock makes accuracy actively worse like on short rollers or infested.

While I'm aim gliding I'd like to hit my targets with more than two bullets each... Assuming those shots even connect in the first place.

By the way, did you notice the Corinths' fire the grenade when you press the Secondary Fire key and not just when you're aiming. If you don't accidently fire a normal shell first because the game can't keep up with it's own mechanics.

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11 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

The ideal solution would be being able to customize weapon  alt modes to alt fire, alt fire toggle, or aim toggle as we see fit.

THIS

Forget everything I said and just agree with this please

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if they just made the Diplos have a fixed burst while, aimed, say 5 rounds per trigger pull, regardless of target, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. I'm not really a lover of manual "target painting" weapons like this and Sepulcrum's alt fire (but Sepulcrum gets away with it by virtue of being kinda awesome.

like the Sepulcrum, the other mode is fine: when hipfired, the Diplos are pretty good auto pistols, it's just that the lock on mode is clunky and unless you can stand on the edge of a room full of unalerted enemeis and lock on to them all, the homing mode has no real practicality; auto pistols are by nature spray-and prey weapons that suit an aggressive play style: no precision required, just run in, look in the enemy's general direction and hold the trigger down until you hit them enough times to kill them; rinse and repeat. if you're gonna have a homing mode, it should have auto targeting, like Cyanex.

oh, and the tracking on the Diplos sucks too, yet the Tenet Envoy's is perfect.. weird.

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5 minutes ago, Dreddgrave said:

THIS

Forget everything I said and just agree with this please

For sure.  

Although...

[begin off topic rant] I don't have much hope for DE implementing alt mode customization when they haven't even hinted at auto/semi auto customization.  An improvement that would come with actual health and accessibility benefits for their players. [end off topic rant]

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2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

For sure.  

Although...

[begin off topic rant] I don't have much hope for DE implementing alt mode customization when they haven't even hinted at auto/semi auto customization.  An improvement that would come with actual health and accessibility benefits for their players. [end off topic rant]

Oh absolutely, I have zero confidence DE staff can make it out of bed half the time after the track record we have but screaming into the void of their ineptitude at least has a chance at letting the one busy guy there hear our cries.

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I honestly don't know why they don't make use of the alt-fire button... There are weapons that switch their firing mode on the alt-fire button, and that actually works fine.

 

I'm surprised they aren't following THAT trend instead of this one.

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Hm, I'd prefer a toogle, too. It's interesting that some weapons offer this feature and others don't... By the way: Could you please make Panthera's secondary fire mode a toggle? Having to keep the right stick pressed down to activate the sawblade, while also needing to move it for aiming makes it absolutely impossible to use on consoles ( I wish, anybody would test something nowadays, before it gets implemented, but that's gaming in 2021 unfortunately...).

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On 2021-07-24 at 12:22 PM, snoozecruise said:

The Tenet Diplos' on-aim alt-fire gives it a unique flavor that's not for everyone, and that's okay.

That's a really funny way of saying "it doesn't work".

 

Like literally, nothing happens. You lock on, if you're lucky, and fire one single bullet at the enemy before going clickclickclick.

That is the definition of unusably broken.

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11 hours ago, (XBOX)Kuhl MC said:

Hm, I'd prefer a toogle, too. It's interesting that some weapons offer this feature and others don't... By the way: Could you please make Panthera's secondary fire mode a toggle? Having to keep the right stick pressed down to activate the sawblade, while also needing to move it for aiming makes it absolutely impossible to use on consoles ( I wish, anybody would test something nowadays, before it gets implemented, but that's gaming in 2021 unfortunately...).

I've been leaving feedback in the feedback forums about this, every few months. They just don't care about Panthera 

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Well while Quartakk and (never actually used it for good) Quatz there is huge difference in comparison to Diplos. _You can shoot normally with those weapons when you’re aiming_ ; But you can’t with diplos, they starting to glitch, shooting single bullet or not shooting at all, and that’s the problem, it aim activate semi-automatic homing projectiles with punch-through *WITHOUT*, that could be cool.  

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I made a topic slowly a year ago, I had the same problem like you. I just want to enjoy the kuva quartakk like i mained the original  for six hundred hours.

We need and option to change this machanic all araund on different weapons! I would love to use aim switch with a zarr! 

 

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